Why don't mainstream companies make more GTs & Sports cars?

[RobM77]

The Maserati running costs thread has got me thinking. They're beautifuly cars and I'd really love one, but the parts and servicing prices look quite scary. Likewise for Ferrari, and even Porsche. I actually don't care what badge is on the car, I just want the driving experience (and sound!).

So, why can't big mainstream manufacturers produce cars like this that are cheaper to run? Is it because their infrastructure is not designed for small volume specialist cars? Is it because people wouldn't buy them? Or is it because anyone buying a £70k car is ready for £10k a year depreciation, so £2k running costs is not a show stopper for new car sales?

And how does all this relate to the NSX, where a massive multi-national mainstream car company produced a mid engined sports/GT? Honda aren't stupid, presumably they expected it to be a success, which makes me think it's not the infrastructure issue, and more the badge, that made them sell only a few hundred here in the UK (did they sell better abroad?).

So would you buy a Maserati, Porsche or Ferrari style car made by Honda, Toyota or Nissan if it promised cheaper servicing, better reliability, and an equal experience, both aurally and through the driving?

[vz-r_dave]

Its because breaking into the GT sports car market isnt easy, brand image (badge snobbery), the profit margins are smaller and they probably do not have the tooling in place to build them. Not to forget the massive out right costs for R&D as well.

Edited by vz-r_dave on Wednesday 12th January 14:31

[flattotheboards]

They do, infiniti for example or would you class this as premium like a merc etc?

[RobM77]

flattotheboards said:

They do, infiniti for example or would you class this as premium like a merc etc?

I wasn't referring to that sort of car to be honest, I was referring to cars like the Maserati 4200, Porsche 911 and Ferrari F430. Sports and GT cars.

[Ozzie Osmond]

Back in 1990 there were for practical purposes no sports cars made by the big manufacturers. Since then,

Mazda MX-5
Nissan 370Z
BMW Z4
Mercedes SLK
Audi TT

These cars now dominate the market and "specialist" sports cars (at leat, those designed since 1960) have virtually ceased to exist.

[kambites]

Plenty of mainstream manufacturers have had a stab at producing small, low cost, sports cars (MX5, MR2, etc). I think the higher end stuff just wouldn't sell unless it was considerably better than the competition, and even then it probably wouldn't sell well until the brand had a chance to build a reputation for it - the market is too much dictated by badge snobbery.

Of course the same is true of luxury cars, how many Skoda Superbs do you actually see on the road?

[fathomfive]

kambites said:

Of course the same is true of luxury cars, how many Skoda Superbs do you actually see on the road?

Ones without taxi decals?

Not a lot.

[RobM77]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Back in 1990 there were for practical purposes no sports cars made by the big manufacturers. Since then,

Mazda MX-5
Nissan 370Z
BMW Z4
Mercedes SLK
Audi TT

These cars now dominate the market and "specialist" sports cars (at leat, those designed since 1960) have virtually ceased to exist.

But why not move into the £50k to £150k bracket and take on Porsche, Ferrari etc? The MR2 and MX5 are excellent cars.

[Fittster]

Unless it's got the right badge it won't sell.

Plenty of praise for the Renault GTA, it didn't sell.
Plenty of praise for the Honda NSX it didn't sell.

Nissan had to come up with a car that can crush a 911 for Cayman money to get any sales and even that car gets stick for it's image on this forum.

If Lotus can't sell a premium product (Evora), the chances of a mainstream firm doing it are 0.

Edited by Fittster on Wednesday 12th January 14:53

[Diabolik]

I think it's partly due to the rise of 'hot hatches' in the last decade or so. They're fast and fun - and you can take them shopping. Obviously it's a much wider market as they can attract both customers seeking performance and customers seeking practicality; why target each market individually when you can do the same with just one model.

[Lucas North]

Snobbery pure and simple.

[300bhp/ton]

RobM77 said:

The Maserati running costs thread has got me thinking. They're beautifuly cars and I'd really love one, but the parts and servicing prices look quite scary. Likewise for Ferrari, and even Porsche. I actually don't care what badge is on the car, I just want the driving experience (and sound!).

So, why can't big mainstream manufacturers produce cars like this that are cheaper to run? Is it because their infrastructure is not designed for small volume specialist cars? Is it because people wouldn't buy them? Or is it because anyone buying a £70k car is ready for £10k a year depreciation, so £2k running costs is not a show stopper for new car sales?

And how does all this relate to the NSX, where a massive multi-national mainstream car company produced a mid engined sports/GT? Honda aren't stupid, presumably they expected it to be a success, which makes me think it's not the infrastructure issue, and more the badge, that made them sell only a few hundred here in the UK (did they sell better abroad?).

So would you buy a Maserati, Porsche or Ferrari style car made by Honda, Toyota or Nissan if it promised cheaper servicing, better reliability, and an equal experience, both aurally and through the driving?

I think there are several issues:

1. We are in the UK
2. Were 99.99% of the driving population is brainwashed into thinking they need and must have a fwd hatch, because they always carry 5 people and a washing machine about
3. When auto makers do make cars as you describe, they are often shunned by the media or not supported by the public
4. There are a good number of cars that you describe in the wider non UK market


e.g.

Nissan current sell the 370z, Mazda the RX-8 (or has it stopped production??). Either way, 2 rwd GT/sports cars from mainstream auto makers.

In the US you get the Mustang, Camaro and Challenger. Along with a host of other sports/GT/Personal luxury coupes over the past decades from T-Birds, to Cougours, Riviera's and many others.



In short though, YES I fully agree with you Coupes are my favourite type of car (I currently have 4!!).


But look back over the past 20 years or so, there have been some good mainstream sports/GT cars:

-Nissan 300ZX
-Mitsubishi 3000GTO
-Mitsubishi Eclipse/Eagle Talon
-Nissan Fairlady
-Nissan 200SX (s13 thru s14a)
-Subaru SVX
-Toyota MR2 Turbo
-Toyota Celica GT-Four st205
-BMW 328i


To name only a few.

[Jon951]

Badge snobbery makes it pointless as stated above - same reason lots of mainstream mass producers pulled out of the executive market and why excellent products like the VW Phaeton fail in the market place where the VW badge is deemed unacceptable ,whereas in other markets its fawned over to a ridiculous extent.

[mat205125]

Developing a sports car that is going to get into the boxing ring with the 911 in terms of price and market position is a hugely brave, and expensive undertaking for any manufacturer, let alone one with a more mainstream badge.

[soad]

RobM77 said:

So would you buy a Maserati, Porsche or Ferrari style car made by Honda, Toyota or Nissan if it promised cheaper servicing, better reliability, and an equal experience, both aurally and through the driving?

In short? Yes

[300bhp/ton]

RobM77 said:

flattotheboards said:

They do, infiniti for example or would you class this as premium like a merc etc?

I wasn't referring to that sort of car to be honest, I was referring to cars like the Maserati 4200, Porsche 911 and Ferrari F430. Sports and GT cars.

Corvette?

[Crow555]

I can see the OP's point but on a much wider scale.

Honda for example have binned the Type-R and the S2000 and the sportiest thing they are currently offering is the CRZ. Mazda have sent the RX8 on it's way (even with rumblings of a new RX7 on the way) leaving the Mx5 and it could be argued, the 3MPS. Toyota at least have the FT-86 but it's a far cry from the Supra. Nissan in the very least still seem to be catering for everyone out there, be it a supercar (GT-R), sports GT (370Z), offroader (take your pick) or econobox.

It just seems that no one wants to take a punt at introducing something different. Yesterday's news at the new Hyundai Coupe/hatch/scirocco clone left me bewildered. Why bring that out when they could just make the Genesis Coupe available to Europe?

[RobM77]

300bhp/ton said:

RobM77 said:

flattotheboards said:

They do, infiniti for example or would you class this as premium like a merc etc?

I wasn't referring to that sort of car to be honest, I was referring to cars like the Maserati 4200, Porsche 911 and Ferrari F430. Sports and GT cars.

Corvette?

Precisely, although it's only made for the American market with LHD, and as far as I know is only designed and developed in America, to work on American roads and to appeal to Americans. It's exactly what I meant, but perhaps with a different focus.

[300bhp/ton]

[Fatman2]

I'd definitely buy a mainstream GT or sportscar from Honda, Toyota etc. but sadly it seems to be a very niche market that doesn't sell in large numbers. Now that accountants rule every engineering company going they're all a little cautious with producing anything unless it strictly promotes their agenda (like with the CR-Z for Honda).

Add to that the fact that GT's are usually low-medium volume and large manufacturers mainly deal with high volume models so it's a bit of a bad business choice. You've only got to look at Lotus to see how they've struggled financially. Fantastic cars but unfortunately not fantastic sellers.