4/5/6 Point Racing Harness

[The Moose]

This is a 100% genuine question!!

Anyway, I am currently racing a Mk1 MR2 and whilst over a few drinks with some of the other guys at the pub at Pembrey on Saturday we were talking about 4/5/6 point harnesses. One of the guys had a roll last year in a car. Anyway, he wasn't hurt and walked away (I gather) but I asked him how his bks were (assuming he had a 5 point harness) and he said something along the lines of "I would never wear a 5 point harness. What would be the point in living!!" LOL.

Was also thinking that a head-on into a tyre wall at a remotely steady speed of 70 odd miles an hour (i.e. 70 - 0 in bugger all space/time) would really really hurt as your thrown forward. Now, admitidly this may not be the biggest thing you are worrying about at that moment, but is obviously a worry!!

So, who has ever had a crash (Motorsport/Road/Whatever) with a 5 or 6 point harness, what happened, and did it kill your bks!! LOL

I mean, it can't be THAT bad (so he says!! LOL) as you don't hear (well, I havn't anyway) of F1 drivers loosing their bks etc?! (Schumacher/Kubica/etc etc etc).

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Cheers

The Moose

P.S.
I will hold my hands up and say I'm honestly not certain where to put this. The options were:
The Lounge - general chat
General Gassing - as it involves cars
General Motorsport - as it involves harnesses used in racing (but used in other applications too)
UK Club Motorsport - as I race in UK Club Motorsports!!
Health Matters - well, obvious really!!

[VetteG]

I always made sure that my bits were not trapped by the bottom 2 straps when I fastened them up, I just assumed everyone did the same thing!

G

[The Moose]

VetteG said:

I always made sure that my bits were not trapped by the bottom 2 straps when I fastened them up, I just assumed everyone did the same thing!

G

Surely this would apply with a 6 point, not 5?? Because that would indeed make sense.

I am running a 5 point. Am I asking for trouble?!? LOL

Cheers

The Moose

[ewenm]

Not having crashed in a 4/5/6 point harness I'm not the most help, but on yuor point about 4 point vs 5/6 point - the crotch straps are there to stop you "submarining" through the harness in a crash. So when asking if a 5/6 point chrash hurt, bear in mind how much it may have hurt if that strap hadn't been there...

One thing I have learnt through years of rock-climbing is that a little time spent arranging yourself around the harness pays huge dividends in a fall.

[The Moose]

ewenm said:

Not having crashed in a 4/5/6 point harness I'm not the most help, but on yuor point about 4 point vs 5/6 point - the crotch straps are there to stop you "submarining" through the harness in a crash. So when asking if a 5/6 point chrash hurt, bear in mind how much it may have hurt if that strap hadn't been there...

One thing I have learnt through years of rock-climbing is that a little time spent arranging yourself around the harness pays huge dividends in a fall.

Interesting!! I do "arrange myself" but having a 3 inch (IIRC) crotch strap makes it a tad hard if you get my drift??

Like, I understand the submarining bit, but surely that is more of an issue if you are in a much more reclined position rather than a saloon style more upright seat? Or am I off the mark here?? It's just I'm not a small bloke and don't know if I would?? Fair point on that hurting more, although potentially, not the long term mental side effects

Maybe acquiring a 6 point would be a good plan??

Cheers

The Moose

[flemke]

I recently had a fairly big head-on into the Armco (in a race). Assuming that you are sitting fairly upright, such as in a touring car, if your lap belt is done up tightly and sits below your hip bones, your hips are held in place and your lower body is not going to shift forward.
Below the waist during the impact you won't feel a thing, and below the waist after the impact you will continue to be able to feel everything.

[Mars]

There's a variety of crotch straps which are designed to avoid the unmentionables.

You have a 5-pointer here with a "not so good" crotch strap:



A 6-pointer with a similar "not so good" crotch strap



And then you have the "avoidance" types (those that avoid your tackle) as such:



And there's the moustache-type too, which is similar to above but uses a single clip into the buckle. I can't find a pic of that one but I've used it without a problem.

[The Moose]

flemke said:

I recently had a fairly big head-on into the Armco (in a race). Assuming that you are sitting fairly upright, such as in a touring car, if your lap belt is done up tightly and sits below your hip bones, your hips are held in place and your lower body is not going to shift forward.
Below the waist during the impact you won't feel a thing, and below the waist after the impact you will continue to be able to feel everything.

First, glad you are ok!! So, to clarify, were you using a 4, 5 or 6 point harness?? What sort of speeds are you looking at and what car??

I assume the bit in bold is all in a good way?!?

If you've just got a 4 point harness, how do you then keep the lap belt lower on your body? I have always found that (this is in a different car with a 4 point) that either the lap belt rides up or the shoulder straps are not holding you tight into the car??

Am I just being a twunt??

Cheers

The Moose

[The Wookie]

I spanked a tyre wall pretty much head on at a fair lick at Snetterton several weeks ago, can't say it hurt my nuts with a 6-point belt, but then I arrange myself suitably. I'd be more worried about my neck in 99% of accidents.

[The Wookie]

The Moose said:

If you've just got a 4 point harness, how do you then keep the lap belt lower on your body? I have always found that (this is in a different car with a 4 point) that either the lap belt rides up or the shoulder straps are not holding you tight into the car??

Am I just being a twunt??

Cheers

The Moose

Nope, that's a flaw with the 4-point harness, and the main reason why many have called for them to be banned in racing

[The Moose]

The Wookie said:

The Moose said:

If you've just got a 4 point harness, how do you then keep the lap belt lower on your body? I have always found that (this is in a different car with a 4 point) that either the lap belt rides up or the shoulder straps are not holding you tight into the car??

Am I just being a twunt??

Cheers

The Moose

Nope, that's a flaw with the 4-point harness, and the main reason why many have called for them to be banned in racing

Ah cool - can't go being a twunt

The Wookie said:

I spanked a tyre wall pretty much head on at a fair lick at Snetterton several weeks ago, can't say it hurt my nuts with a 6-point belt, but then I arrange myself suitably. I'd be more worried about my neck in 99% of accidents.

Are you the chap who straightened out the esses with no brakes or something similar??

I guess the main purpose of this thread is to see if its worth the extra expense of acquiring a 6 point setup?? Like I said, it's hard to arrange yourself properly with a 5 point!!

Glad your ok

Cheers

The Moose

[ewenm]

The Moose said:

If you've just got a 4 point harness, how do you then keep the lap belt lower on your body? I have always found that (this is in a different car with a 4 point) that either the lap belt rides up or the shoulder straps are not holding you tight into the car??

The way I do it in the Caterham is to do the lap straps up first and make sure they are good and tight. Then connect the shoulder straps and tightend them - the lap strap shouldn't move if it is as tight as it can go already.

[The Moose]

ewenm said:

The Moose said:

If you've just got a 4 point harness, how do you then keep the lap belt lower on your body? I have always found that (this is in a different car with a 4 point) that either the lap belt rides up or the shoulder straps are not holding you tight into the car??

The way I do it in the Caterham is to do the lap straps up first and make sure they are good and tight. Then connect the shoulder straps and tightend them - the lap strap shouldn't move if it is as tight as it can go already.

See, that is what I have tried (Willens harness in Recarco SPG XL seat) and could never get the shoulder straps tight without the lap strap turning more ^ shaped!!

Cheers

The Moose

[deviant]

The Moose said:

ewenm said:

The Moose said:

If you've just got a 4 point harness, how do you then keep the lap belt lower on your body? I have always found that (this is in a different car with a 4 point) that either the lap belt rides up or the shoulder straps are not holding you tight into the car??

The way I do it in the Caterham is to do the lap straps up first and make sure they are good and tight. Then connect the shoulder straps and tightend them - the lap strap shouldn't move if it is as tight as it can go already.

See, that is what I have tried (Willens harness in Recarco SPG XL seat) and could never get the shoulder straps tight without the lap strap turning more ^ shaped!!

Cheers

The Moose

Buy a 6 pointer and be done with it. Its not worth compromising your safety for a hobby!!

[The Wookie]

The Moose said:

Are you the chap who straightened out the esses with no brakes or something similar??

I guess the main purpose of this thread is to see if its worth the extra expense of acquiring a 6 point setup?? Like I said, it's hard to arrange yourself properly with a 5 point!!

Glad your ok

Cheers

The Moose

Thankfully not! I ran out of talent, rather than brakes, in testing at Riches in the 997 GT3 I race. I exited stage left at about 120, but it's only grass there, so I can't imagine I wiped a huge amount of speed off. Having said that it was positively comfy compared to a similar speed shunt I had in the Caterham. I'd put it down to the Caterham bouncing off where the Porker ended up windscreen deep in the tyres

Given the choice, I'd always go for a 6 point. Whatever the difference in cost is, ignoring safety it'll seem a small price even for comfort while you're driving.

Edited by The Wookie on Monday 18th May 12:07

[The Moose]

The Wookie said:

The Moose said:

Are you the chap who straightened out the esses with no brakes or something similar??

I guess the main purpose of this thread is to see if its worth the extra expense of acquiring a 6 point setup?? Like I said, it's hard to arrange yourself properly with a 5 point!!

Glad your ok

Cheers

The Moose

Thankfully not! I ran out of talent, rather than brakes, in testing at Riches in the 997 GT3 I race. I exited stage left at about 120, but it's only grass there, so I can't imagine I wiped a huge amount of speed off. Having said that it was positively comfy compared to a similar speed shunt I had in the Caterham. I'd put it down to the Caterham bouncing off where the Porker ended up windscreen deep in the tyres

Given the choice, I'd always go for a 6 point. Whatever the difference in cost is, ignoring safety it'll seem a small price even for comfort while you're driving.

Edited by The Wookie on Monday 18th May 12:07

Glad to hear thats not you - I heard it was pretty nasty, but didn't actually see it. Gave the spectators there a hell of a shock!

Nice corner that...although I wouldn't fancy running off there!! LOL I span coming out Sear as was grateful not to smack it into the wall there!! Even though that corner is a lot slower than Riches.

Slightly different level of metal your talking about there than I drive!!

Cheers

The Moose

[The Wookie]

Yes, it was slightly unfortunate in that if I'd managed to get an extra 10 degrees on turn in (missed my braking point by 18 meters according to the data) I would have ended up in the corn field and not actually hit anything! Still it wasn't too bad, a new front wing and a pair of radiators. It's a rare thing to say it would have been more expensive if I'd been in the Caterham, and probably more painful too!

Only a recent step up to this level of metal! I've been a Caterham club racer for the past 3-4 years and it doesn't matter what level you're at, if you're not comfortable, you're not concentrating!

[flemke]

The Moose said:

flemke said:

I recently had a fairly big head-on into the Armco (in a race). Assuming that you are sitting fairly upright, such as in a touring car, if your lap belt is done up tightly and sits below your hip bones, your hips are held in place and your lower body is not going to shift forward.
Below the waist during the impact you won't feel a thing, and below the waist after the impact you will continue to be able to feel everything.

First, glad you are ok!! So, to clarify, were you using a 4, 5 or 6 point harness?? What sort of speeds are you looking at and what car??

I assume the bit in bold is all in a good way?!?

If you've just got a 4 point harness, how do you then keep the lap belt lower on your body? I have always found that (this is in a different car with a 4 point) that either the lap belt rides up or the shoulder straps are not holding you tight into the car??

Am I just being a twunt??

Cheers

The Moose

6 pt.
The impact speed indicated on telemetry was 60 mph, IIRC.
Location of anchor points of harnesses is critical, and there will be literature available showing what is and is not advised (and, in some cases, allowed). If the lap belts were anchored from the correct position, I've never had a problem getting them below my hip bones and done up very tightly. You go from there to doing the same with the shoulder harnesses. For me, the primary function of the crutch straps is to keep the tightening shoulder harnesses from pulling the lap belts above the hip bones. Secondary function is in the unlikely case of submarining (although in a lay-back seating position, such as in a modern single seater, the crutch straps are much more important in the latter regard).

[speedychrissie]

flemke said:

For me, the primary function of the crutch straps is to keep the tightening shoulder harnesses from pulling the lap belts above the hip bones. Secondary function is in the unlikely case of submarining.

That is how I see it. In my experience the "breathing room" difference between a 5 point and a six point harness crutch strap is minimal. The advantage is that the load is spread over an additional fixing point.

As far as I am concerned, a 5 point is the minimum I would have in a racing car. I have yet to find a 4 point that really felt like it was holding me in as well as any 5 point.

[K50 DEL]

Mars said:

A 6-pointer with a similar "not so good" crotch strap

I rolled a 205 a few years ago whilst wearing one of these, no problems with the twins at all, in fact I still use the same kit nowadays.