American cars - why the haters?
Discussion
What is it with these “supposed” car enthusiasts here in the UK that simply refer to any American car as crap! Regardless of what it is or what it’s capable of?
Why all this narrow minded, head up own arse attitude? I simply don’t understand. I’m a car enthusiast, that means I like cars. If it’s good it gets the thumbs up no matter what. I like Impreza’s, Integra Type R’s, MGF’s, Porsches the lot. I’ve also owned and driven a fair few different cars from hot hatches, to turbo charged Japanese performance cars, to luxury GT’s to classic British sports cars. And I am still in utter disbelief at the crap and nonsense that some people come up with when talking about American performance cars, almost as if it’s a disgusting topic of some sort.
Sure these self same people will then love and cite BMW M3, M5, M6 or an AMG Mercedes even a VW Golf as being better at everything, forgetting that most of the cars they cite are just are heavy often under powered when compared to American muscle and often cost considerable more.
But show them a V8 powered muscle car and they’ll tell you its slow, doesn’t handle or stop, has crap build quality, look horrid, drink fuel (alla “gas guzzler”) and are overweight?
Unsurprisingly these people are also the ones that have never owned, driven or even been in such a car. They are also quite happy to ignore the fact that many of the cars they adore (such as a Ford Focus) is also an American car…
Well to all you haters here are some facts:
A typical Mustang since the late 80’s/early 90’s has had 215-300bhp and only weighs 1436kg – 1596kg
A typical Fbody (Trans Am/Camaro) since the early 90’s has had 275-350bhp and only weighed 1500-1600kg
A Corvette since the late 90’s has had 345-505bhp and only weighed 1400-1480kg
Not including others great American cars like the Dodge Viper and the Neon SRT4.
As you can see they are REAL heavyweights in the large coupe and 2+2 coupe market when compared to the competition:
BMW M3 (E46) 1570kg
BMW M3 (E90/92) 1655kg
BMW M6 1785kg
Audi RS4 1650kg
Audi TT 1540kg
Ferrari Mondial T 1503kg
Ferrari F430 1450kg
Honda NSX 1453kg
Jaguar XK8 1685kg
Jaguar XKR 1735kg
Lamborghini Murcielago 1654kg
Mercedes SLK 55 AMG 1544kg
Mitsubishi 3000 GT VR-4 1725kg
Nissan 300ZX Turbo 1550kg
Nissan Skyline R33 1530kg
Porsche 911 Turbo 1467kg
Porsche 928 GTS 1600kg
Subaru Impreza WRX (GD) 1424kg
Toyota Supra Twin Turbo 1566kg
VW Golf R32 MK4 1552kg
Aston Martin V8 Vantage 1634kg
Aston Martin DB9 1714kg
So how exactly are the American contenders really that heavy and overweight?
And no they are not “gas guzzlers” either. I regularly see 24-26mpg in my z/28 and there are plenty of other sources that will acclaim to good fuel economy for the level of performance the car offers.
BMW M3 mpg figures – 23.7 average mpg
http://www.stevecarter.com/m3bmw.htm
The Corvette C6 Z06 has an official EPA of 24-26mpg, show me another 500bhp car offering the same!
You don’t have to like, but don’t bash based on a likely racist attitude if you have no frigging idea what it is like to own and drive an American performance car.
If you really have no idea then go drive one and compare it to similarly priced vehicles and comment based on real world experience!
-Rant Over!!!
Why all this narrow minded, head up own arse attitude? I simply don’t understand. I’m a car enthusiast, that means I like cars. If it’s good it gets the thumbs up no matter what. I like Impreza’s, Integra Type R’s, MGF’s, Porsches the lot. I’ve also owned and driven a fair few different cars from hot hatches, to turbo charged Japanese performance cars, to luxury GT’s to classic British sports cars. And I am still in utter disbelief at the crap and nonsense that some people come up with when talking about American performance cars, almost as if it’s a disgusting topic of some sort.
Sure these self same people will then love and cite BMW M3, M5, M6 or an AMG Mercedes even a VW Golf as being better at everything, forgetting that most of the cars they cite are just are heavy often under powered when compared to American muscle and often cost considerable more.
But show them a V8 powered muscle car and they’ll tell you its slow, doesn’t handle or stop, has crap build quality, look horrid, drink fuel (alla “gas guzzler”) and are overweight?
Unsurprisingly these people are also the ones that have never owned, driven or even been in such a car. They are also quite happy to ignore the fact that many of the cars they adore (such as a Ford Focus) is also an American car…
Well to all you haters here are some facts:
A typical Mustang since the late 80’s/early 90’s has had 215-300bhp and only weighs 1436kg – 1596kg
A typical Fbody (Trans Am/Camaro) since the early 90’s has had 275-350bhp and only weighed 1500-1600kg
A Corvette since the late 90’s has had 345-505bhp and only weighed 1400-1480kg
Not including others great American cars like the Dodge Viper and the Neon SRT4.
As you can see they are REAL heavyweights in the large coupe and 2+2 coupe market when compared to the competition:
BMW M3 (E46) 1570kg
BMW M3 (E90/92) 1655kg
BMW M6 1785kg
Audi RS4 1650kg
Audi TT 1540kg
Ferrari Mondial T 1503kg
Ferrari F430 1450kg
Honda NSX 1453kg
Jaguar XK8 1685kg
Jaguar XKR 1735kg
Lamborghini Murcielago 1654kg
Mercedes SLK 55 AMG 1544kg
Mitsubishi 3000 GT VR-4 1725kg
Nissan 300ZX Turbo 1550kg
Nissan Skyline R33 1530kg
Porsche 911 Turbo 1467kg
Porsche 928 GTS 1600kg
Subaru Impreza WRX (GD) 1424kg
Toyota Supra Twin Turbo 1566kg
VW Golf R32 MK4 1552kg
Aston Martin V8 Vantage 1634kg
Aston Martin DB9 1714kg
So how exactly are the American contenders really that heavy and overweight?
And no they are not “gas guzzlers” either. I regularly see 24-26mpg in my z/28 and there are plenty of other sources that will acclaim to good fuel economy for the level of performance the car offers.
BMW M3 mpg figures – 23.7 average mpg
http://www.stevecarter.com/m3bmw.htm
The Corvette C6 Z06 has an official EPA of 24-26mpg, show me another 500bhp car offering the same!
You don’t have to like, but don’t bash based on a likely racist attitude if you have no frigging idea what it is like to own and drive an American performance car.
If you really have no idea then go drive one and compare it to similarly priced vehicles and comment based on real world experience!
-Rant Over!!!
The American contenders are grossly overweight. Unfortunately so are most of the European ones.
I think the real problem is that the run-of-the-mill American cars are so bad. How could Ford US manage to take the Focus, itself a fine handling if rather dull little car, and make it handle quite so badly? The US spec ones even seem to ride worse than the European ones.
Mostly it's just snobbery though. And the fact that apparently cars have to have "the right kind of plastic" inside in order to be good cars
I think the real problem is that the run-of-the-mill American cars are so bad. How could Ford US manage to take the Focus, itself a fine handling if rather dull little car, and make it handle quite so badly? The US spec ones even seem to ride worse than the European ones.
Mostly it's just snobbery though. And the fact that apparently cars have to have "the right kind of plastic" inside in order to be good cars
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 18th June 11:09
I can't say I have every really noticed people moaning about the weight of them (escalades etc aside). people often talk about their 'datedness' (push rods, cart springs etc) an irrelevance if they drive well. and people talk about their perceived 'cheapness' which surely you agree is fair comment generally lots of greyish crap plastic.
Nothing wrong with American cars per se, but I think some of us over here are a bit annoyed when they refuse to do a RHD version of their best cars.
Why aren't we getting the new Dodge Challenger or Chevrolet Camaro, for example? Especially as the Chrysler 300C is doing fine.
And you can't ignore the fact that, despite whatever potential they might have, the majority have their suspension tuned for American roads - ie long, straight and smooth. Nothing wrong with that - in America - but over here?
It's the isolationism that rubs everyone up the wrong way. That and the nasty fake wood they still use in the interiors.
Why aren't we getting the new Dodge Challenger or Chevrolet Camaro, for example? Especially as the Chrysler 300C is doing fine.
And you can't ignore the fact that, despite whatever potential they might have, the majority have their suspension tuned for American roads - ie long, straight and smooth. Nothing wrong with that - in America - but over here?
It's the isolationism that rubs everyone up the wrong way. That and the nasty fake wood they still use in the interiors.
its not about just the power its about how they drive which has traditionally been piss poor for european road/driving styles (great for america).
Typically they look great, sound great built like s
t. Build quality IS a genuine issue.
This from an American car fan. They tend to look fantastic these days and things have improved. Not all things are bad and the global brands realise what works in USA may not work elsewhere but when they do try to cross markets with a single model they do at least now tend to have a Euro spec for the suspension.
Typically they look great, sound great built like s
t. Build quality IS a genuine issue.This from an American car fan. They tend to look fantastic these days and things have improved. Not all things are bad and the global brands realise what works in USA may not work elsewhere but when they do try to cross markets with a single model they do at least now tend to have a Euro spec for the suspension.
as for 28mpg the US gallon is smaller than the UK gallon so that works out 24mpg and if you are getting that out of a z28 I would question your reliability on the matter! You must have lean cruise turned on and be trickling along at a steady 50mph for about 300 miles to get that
eta I just noticed you are in the UK, 24mpg? When? When rolling along on the motorway maybe!
eta I just noticed you are in the UK, 24mpg? When? When rolling along on the motorway maybe!
Edited by stigmundfreud on Wednesday 18th June 11:17
briSk said:
and people talk about their perceived 'cheapness' which surely you agree is fair comment generally lots of greyish crap plastic.
No really no.In my Camaro the only really cheap looking plastic is the trim around the side vents (2 of them) and the elastic on the sun visor for holding things.
The rest of the cabin is as good quality (touch and appearance) as any other car I've been in that uses similar materials. And this even includes some BMW's.
I've also been in a Mustang GT and in appearance and for the most part touch it is a far better interior than something like the Nissan 350z.
Yet similar comments often seem over looked on vehicles like Subaru's and Evo's....
stigmundfreud said:
as for 28mpg the US gallon is smaller than the UK gallon so that works out 24mpg and if you are getting that out of a z28 I would question your reliability on the matter! You must have lean cruise turned on and be trickling along at a steady 50mph for about 300 miles to get that
eta I just noticed you are in the UK, 24mpg? When? When rolling along on the motorway maybe!
If the US Gallon is smaller then to convert you will get more higher mpg figure on uk figure than us figure , not less...eta I just noticed you are in the UK, 24mpg? When? When rolling along on the motorway maybe!
Edited by stigmundfreud on Wednesday 18th June 11:17
300bhp/ton said:
Yet similar comments often seem over looked on vehicles like Subaru's and Evo's....
I'd agree with that aspect.That said, My mum has a Neon RT and frankly it's the biggest pile of s
te I've driven in a long time, is unreliable, costly to repair, ungainly, Fugly, nasty interior... The list just goes on. If the RT4 is anything like it then it deserves to be killed. With Fire.Twincam16 said:
And you can't ignore the fact that, despite whatever potential they might have, the majority have their suspension tuned for American roads - ie long, straight and smooth. Nothing wrong with that - in America - but over here?
Don't agree I'm afraid. There are plenty of twisty and bumpy roads State side. Saying they are all long straights is just another stereo typically cast as per what is said about there cars.Also in the US cars are built and sold with the expectation of aftermarket modifications. It's not like here in the UK where modding a car is frawned upon.
In the US you could walk into a Ford dealer buy a new Mustang GT, then walk over the to Ford Racing parts counter buy new suspension, exhaust, wheels and a SUPERCHARGER kit and then walk over to the service counter and book it in for the dealership to fit all the aftermarket parts.
GM have the GM Performance Devision and Dodge have Mopar. They all do the same.
Stock vehicle, is just that. It drives but allows you the owner to personalise it how you want and thats what they expect.
Twincam16 said:
It's the isolationism that rubs everyone up the wrong way. That and the nasty fake wood they still use in the interiors.
Well not many have wood and usually its actually real not fake. And to be honest while Jag/Aston have traditinally done the best wood, I've never seen a German car with a decent wood dash - they all look horrid and cost WAY more.American cars are not crap in general. Its just that they have been built for a specific purpose (and usually price). For what they do, they do it very well. But, to take a US car and drop it unchanged into Europe is daft - it doesn't work and customers don't really like them. Equally, take a EU car and drop it in the US, other than the odd quizzing admirer, it would be a disaster too.
What the European manufacturers have been very clever at doing is to take a EU product and tuning it to the US market. Small tweaks here and there and hey presto, a cracking product. Even when the local US buyers put up the complaints about local content / importing, BMW and Merc built factories to sort this one out. Hence European manufacturers do very well in the US.
What we get in the UK is LHD cars which have had NOTHING done to them in general. Obviously there are a few notable exceptions like Jeep, Chrysler and Dodge. But other than a swapping the steering wheel over, dropping in some average diesel engines and fiddling the spec, there is pretty much nothing much different with them. I think they would do a lot better if the cars were developed with UK and European roads in mind (or at least contract Lotus or Porsche consulting to sort out the ride, handling and driving characteristics of the cars).
On the continent its different, but even then there is little that is done to resolve the ride / handling issues. We are starting to see the benefits of the the change in development process with more and more cars being tested at the Nurburgring. But this is just one small part of a bigger issue. How about dashboards, interior design and the like - they still have a lot to learn in these areas. Especially since the Koreans are catching VERY quickly and they have a reputation for build quality and reliability that the US makers don't.
The US car industry has a chance to recapture the world market if they choose. Its down to them and them alone. The Europeans and Japanese makers are not going to take this lying down, but given the huge engineering might that they possess, there is pretty much nothing they cannot do. Its down to will and desire - which is something that they have shown completely devoid of.... shame really.
What the European manufacturers have been very clever at doing is to take a EU product and tuning it to the US market. Small tweaks here and there and hey presto, a cracking product. Even when the local US buyers put up the complaints about local content / importing, BMW and Merc built factories to sort this one out. Hence European manufacturers do very well in the US.
What we get in the UK is LHD cars which have had NOTHING done to them in general. Obviously there are a few notable exceptions like Jeep, Chrysler and Dodge. But other than a swapping the steering wheel over, dropping in some average diesel engines and fiddling the spec, there is pretty much nothing much different with them. I think they would do a lot better if the cars were developed with UK and European roads in mind (or at least contract Lotus or Porsche consulting to sort out the ride, handling and driving characteristics of the cars).
On the continent its different, but even then there is little that is done to resolve the ride / handling issues. We are starting to see the benefits of the the change in development process with more and more cars being tested at the Nurburgring. But this is just one small part of a bigger issue. How about dashboards, interior design and the like - they still have a lot to learn in these areas. Especially since the Koreans are catching VERY quickly and they have a reputation for build quality and reliability that the US makers don't.
The US car industry has a chance to recapture the world market if they choose. Its down to them and them alone. The Europeans and Japanese makers are not going to take this lying down, but given the huge engineering might that they possess, there is pretty much nothing they cannot do. Its down to will and desire - which is something that they have shown completely devoid of.... shame really.
I hired a Mustang GT-H earlier this year in San Fran. Although the car was good fun, the ride really was crap in that the car pitched whenever it came across a slight road blemish. And the interior was straight out of a 70's Cortina. Shocking, absolutely shocking for a modern car.
In general, Europe(ans) have moved on with percieved quality of ride/handling/interior. America has not.
In general, Europe(ans) have moved on with percieved quality of ride/handling/interior. America has not.
dtmpower said:
stigmundfreud said:
as for 28mpg the US gallon is smaller than the UK gallon so that works out 24mpg and if you are getting that out of a z28 I would question your reliability on the matter! You must have lean cruise turned on and be trickling along at a steady 50mph for about 300 miles to get that
eta I just noticed you are in the UK, 24mpg? When? When rolling along on the motorway maybe!
If the US Gallon is smaller then to convert you will get more higher mpg figure on uk figure than us figure , not less...eta I just noticed you are in the UK, 24mpg? When? When rolling along on the motorway maybe!
Edited by stigmundfreud on Wednesday 18th June 11:17
either way the only time he will ever see 28mpg is when in 6th going at a steady 70 with zero fluctuation in throttle pressure
Edited by stigmundfreud on Wednesday 18th June 11:27
I dont mind wading in (proverbial lamb to the slaughter?).
Your iconic sportscar (the vette) is made of plastic, and has crap suspension. When you drive over so much as a pebble, it rattles your back teeth. Theres a good Top Gear episode that covers the vette reasonably well.
Your luxury cars roll around corners like they’re boats. And you guys frequently have the stereotypical “bigger is better” mentality, resulting in cars that have god awefull mileage. It may be acceptable to you, because your gallon is smaller. Added to that, your fuel costs significantly less (blame taxes for this), so you can afford to drive bigger cars.
Simply put, fuel costs a bomb here by comparison with you guys. As a result, the market demands a different product.
Your iconic sportscar (the vette) is made of plastic, and has crap suspension. When you drive over so much as a pebble, it rattles your back teeth. Theres a good Top Gear episode that covers the vette reasonably well.
Your luxury cars roll around corners like they’re boats. And you guys frequently have the stereotypical “bigger is better” mentality, resulting in cars that have god awefull mileage. It may be acceptable to you, because your gallon is smaller. Added to that, your fuel costs significantly less (blame taxes for this), so you can afford to drive bigger cars.
Simply put, fuel costs a bomb here by comparison with you guys. As a result, the market demands a different product.
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