advice on speeding ticket - sorry for posting here see below
Discussion
Hi all,
Sorry for posting here first - the issue is I cannot wait the required 14 days of joining because of the urgency to put it into the correct folder so apologies.
Basically we were on the M60 (a stretch of motorway and journey we do a lot) and for a sunday evening had already passed what was very unusually two incidents with speed changes on the overhead gantries (smart motorway in operation).
We then proceeded on the motorway and ahead was another speed limit which my partner (who was driving) and I observed to clearly be 50mph in a red circle ahead in the distance. It remained as this limit until we passed it. Prior to this due to the previous incident we were only doing mid fifty so it was a case of slowing a little.
Nevertheless after we passed we saw a flash much to our astonishment. My immediate reaction was that it was the motorway below (as this part after is a bridge). There were no cars there and very few ahead or around us and so I realised we must have been flashed and the limit must have changed to 40 while we passed underneath without any knowledge. I could not accept this and immediately checked with partner and she said she saw 50 all the way, and I even asked our child in the back who also repeatedly said "it was 50!" My child looked behind and saw another flash so another car must have also been incorrectly flashed. I said I bet we receive a NIP saying it was 40 when it clearly was not. Lo and behold we did. This shows we were doing 51, which shows sticking to the 50 as observed, which the NIP however says we did this through a 40 limit which was simply not the case.
This is simply not right and unfair. We complied with the limit we saw (albeit 1mph above which within fair discretion does not lead to a NIP) yet the NIP received says falsely we did this through a 40 limit. Now if we were breaking the 40 limit it would be more like 47-49, not 51, and even I would hold my hand up and tell my partner it felt too fast. This was not the case.
If it helps after this gantry there was an incident ahead in the distance, which was not observable before the gantry. In any event at no point did the limit change down from 50 to 40. Even if it did it we should have been given time beyond the gantry to not be flashed as we had no knowledge of it changing. What can we do about this? The photo sent to us of the gantry whilst showing 40mph does not show us prior to it or after. I think we were flashed around 10 seconds after passing it.
Please can someone advise how I can upload a photo of their photo evidence (redacted)?
Many thanks
Sorry for posting here first - the issue is I cannot wait the required 14 days of joining because of the urgency to put it into the correct folder so apologies.
Basically we were on the M60 (a stretch of motorway and journey we do a lot) and for a sunday evening had already passed what was very unusually two incidents with speed changes on the overhead gantries (smart motorway in operation).
We then proceeded on the motorway and ahead was another speed limit which my partner (who was driving) and I observed to clearly be 50mph in a red circle ahead in the distance. It remained as this limit until we passed it. Prior to this due to the previous incident we were only doing mid fifty so it was a case of slowing a little.
Nevertheless after we passed we saw a flash much to our astonishment. My immediate reaction was that it was the motorway below (as this part after is a bridge). There were no cars there and very few ahead or around us and so I realised we must have been flashed and the limit must have changed to 40 while we passed underneath without any knowledge. I could not accept this and immediately checked with partner and she said she saw 50 all the way, and I even asked our child in the back who also repeatedly said "it was 50!" My child looked behind and saw another flash so another car must have also been incorrectly flashed. I said I bet we receive a NIP saying it was 40 when it clearly was not. Lo and behold we did. This shows we were doing 51, which shows sticking to the 50 as observed, which the NIP however says we did this through a 40 limit which was simply not the case.
This is simply not right and unfair. We complied with the limit we saw (albeit 1mph above which within fair discretion does not lead to a NIP) yet the NIP received says falsely we did this through a 40 limit. Now if we were breaking the 40 limit it would be more like 47-49, not 51, and even I would hold my hand up and tell my partner it felt too fast. This was not the case.
If it helps after this gantry there was an incident ahead in the distance, which was not observable before the gantry. In any event at no point did the limit change down from 50 to 40. Even if it did it we should have been given time beyond the gantry to not be flashed as we had no knowledge of it changing. What can we do about this? The photo sent to us of the gantry whilst showing 40mph does not show us prior to it or after. I think we were flashed around 10 seconds after passing it.
Please can someone advise how I can upload a photo of their photo evidence (redacted)?
Many thanks
ukdriver1981 said:
Hi all,
Sorry for posting here first - the issue is I cannot wait the required 14 days of joining because of the urgency to put it into the correct folder so apologies.
Basically we were on the M60 (a stretch of motorway and journey we do a lot) and for a sunday evening had already passed what was very unusually two incidents with speed changes on the overhead gantries (smart motorway in operation).
We then proceeded on the motorway and ahead was another speed limit which my partner (who was driving) and I observed to clearly be 50mph in a red circle ahead in the distance. It remained as this limit until we passed it. Prior to this due to the previous incident we were only doing mid fifty so it was a case of slowing a little.
Nevertheless after we passed we saw a flash much to our astonishment. My immediate reaction was that it was the motorway below (as this part after is a bridge). There were no cars there and very few ahead or around us and so I realised we must have been flashed and the limit must have changed to 40 while we passed underneath without any knowledge. I could not accept this and immediately checked with partner and she said she saw 50 all the way, and I even asked our child in the back who also repeatedly said "it was 50!" My child looked behind and saw another flash so another car must have also been incorrectly flashed. I said I bet we receive a NIP saying it was 40 when it clearly was not. Lo and behold we did. This shows we were doing 51, which shows sticking to the 50 as observed, which the NIP however says we did this through a 40 limit which was simply not the case.
This is simply not right and unfair. We complied with the limit we saw (albeit 1mph above which within fair discretion does not lead to a NIP) yet the NIP received says falsely we did this through a 40 limit. Now if we were breaking the 40 limit it would be more like 47-49, not 51, and even I would hold my hand up and tell my partner it felt too fast. This was not the case.
If it helps after this gantry there was an incident ahead in the distance, which was not observable before the gantry. In any event at no point did the limit change down from 50 to 40. Even if it did it we should have been given time beyond the gantry to not be flashed as we had no knowledge of it changing. What can we do about this? The photo sent to us of the gantry whilst showing 40mph does not show us prior to it or after. I think we were flashed around 10 seconds after passing it.
Please can someone advise how I can upload a photo of their photo evidence (redacted)?
Many thanks
Did the NIP include photographic evidence?Sorry for posting here first - the issue is I cannot wait the required 14 days of joining because of the urgency to put it into the correct folder so apologies.
Basically we were on the M60 (a stretch of motorway and journey we do a lot) and for a sunday evening had already passed what was very unusually two incidents with speed changes on the overhead gantries (smart motorway in operation).
We then proceeded on the motorway and ahead was another speed limit which my partner (who was driving) and I observed to clearly be 50mph in a red circle ahead in the distance. It remained as this limit until we passed it. Prior to this due to the previous incident we were only doing mid fifty so it was a case of slowing a little.
Nevertheless after we passed we saw a flash much to our astonishment. My immediate reaction was that it was the motorway below (as this part after is a bridge). There were no cars there and very few ahead or around us and so I realised we must have been flashed and the limit must have changed to 40 while we passed underneath without any knowledge. I could not accept this and immediately checked with partner and she said she saw 50 all the way, and I even asked our child in the back who also repeatedly said "it was 50!" My child looked behind and saw another flash so another car must have also been incorrectly flashed. I said I bet we receive a NIP saying it was 40 when it clearly was not. Lo and behold we did. This shows we were doing 51, which shows sticking to the 50 as observed, which the NIP however says we did this through a 40 limit which was simply not the case.
This is simply not right and unfair. We complied with the limit we saw (albeit 1mph above which within fair discretion does not lead to a NIP) yet the NIP received says falsely we did this through a 40 limit. Now if we were breaking the 40 limit it would be more like 47-49, not 51, and even I would hold my hand up and tell my partner it felt too fast. This was not the case.
If it helps after this gantry there was an incident ahead in the distance, which was not observable before the gantry. In any event at no point did the limit change down from 50 to 40. Even if it did it we should have been given time beyond the gantry to not be flashed as we had no knowledge of it changing. What can we do about this? The photo sent to us of the gantry whilst showing 40mph does not show us prior to it or after. I think we were flashed around 10 seconds after passing it.
Please can someone advise how I can upload a photo of their photo evidence (redacted)?
Many thanks
On the Smart motorway sections, there are 2 different cameras which get triggered when an offence is detected. One camera snaps a close up of the car, while the other camera (a bit further back down the motorway) snaps the wider angle with the gantry in view that shows the prevailing speed limit at the time.
The below pics show what such cameras capture.
If you do get both pics, the second pic should show what was visible on the gantry, and if it was showing 50, then that proves your partner is not guilty.
Hi
bigandclever - I do not have the option to 'upload an image' might be because I am new?
Mandat - I have the photos 3 in total. 2 of the car passed the gantry very minimally spaced out to show reliability (I believe) of the speed check of my car. I've absolutely no issues with the speed of our car.
The other photo shows the overhead gantry with 40 on all three roundels without showing our car prior to or after it (it is on a slight bend) and no other cars. The time on this photo matches the photos taken of when our speed was calculated, which would obviously be confounding evidence.
However what they have sent is just plain wrong because when we passed it had not changed - all three of us immediately repeated to each other and were adamant it was and remained 50. How can we reduce our speed if we don't have any knowledge? Indeed then the speed clocked would have been more like 46/47 and our brake lights would be showing as engaged. They have got to show we passed underneath the exact moment with the relevant evidence that it was 40 at that point, because we are certain that photo will show that it was 50. This is just not right.
bigandclever - I do not have the option to 'upload an image' might be because I am new?
Mandat - I have the photos 3 in total. 2 of the car passed the gantry very minimally spaced out to show reliability (I believe) of the speed check of my car. I've absolutely no issues with the speed of our car.
The other photo shows the overhead gantry with 40 on all three roundels without showing our car prior to or after it (it is on a slight bend) and no other cars. The time on this photo matches the photos taken of when our speed was calculated, which would obviously be confounding evidence.
However what they have sent is just plain wrong because when we passed it had not changed - all three of us immediately repeated to each other and were adamant it was and remained 50. How can we reduce our speed if we don't have any knowledge? Indeed then the speed clocked would have been more like 46/47 and our brake lights would be showing as engaged. They have got to show we passed underneath the exact moment with the relevant evidence that it was 40 at that point, because we are certain that photo will show that it was 50. This is just not right.
ukdriver1981 said:
Hi
bigandclever - I do not have the option to 'upload an image' might be because I am new?
Mandat - I have the photos 3 in total. 2 of the car passed the gantry very minimally spaced out to show reliability (I believe) of the speed check of my car. I've absolutely no issues with the speed of our car.
The other photo shows the overhead gantry with 40 on all three roundels without showing our car prior to or after it (it is on a slight bend) and no other cars. The time on this photo matches the photos taken of when our speed was calculated, which would obviously be confounding evidence.
However what they have sent is just plain wrong because when we passed it had not changed - all three of us immediately repeated to each other and were adamant it was and remained 50. How can we reduce our speed if we don't have any knowledge? Indeed then the speed clocked would have been more like 46/47 and our brake lights would be showing as engaged. They have got to show we passed underneath the exact moment with the relevant evidence that it was 40 at that point, because we are certain that photo will show that it was 50. This is just not right.
As shown in the other images posted, does it say 'time since speed limit changed' ?bigandclever - I do not have the option to 'upload an image' might be because I am new?
Mandat - I have the photos 3 in total. 2 of the car passed the gantry very minimally spaced out to show reliability (I believe) of the speed check of my car. I've absolutely no issues with the speed of our car.
The other photo shows the overhead gantry with 40 on all three roundels without showing our car prior to or after it (it is on a slight bend) and no other cars. The time on this photo matches the photos taken of when our speed was calculated, which would obviously be confounding evidence.
However what they have sent is just plain wrong because when we passed it had not changed - all three of us immediately repeated to each other and were adamant it was and remained 50. How can we reduce our speed if we don't have any knowledge? Indeed then the speed clocked would have been more like 46/47 and our brake lights would be showing as engaged. They have got to show we passed underneath the exact moment with the relevant evidence that it was 40 at that point, because we are certain that photo will show that it was 50. This is just not right.
Isn't the problem you face is that you were doing 51. I agree that in a 50 limit, this wouldn't lead to an NIP, but any discretion allowed is just that, discretion, so not set in stone. So now you've been hit with an NIP, even if it was a 50, you're unlikely to get it overturned.
Your argument is basically "I was breaking the speed limit, but only by 1mph and not 11mph as claimed." Not sure that's going to help you now.
Your argument is basically "I was breaking the speed limit, but only by 1mph and not 11mph as claimed." Not sure that's going to help you now.
ukdriver1981 said:
The other photo shows the overhead gantry with 40 on all three roundels without showing our car prior to or after it (it is on a slight bend) and no other cars. The time on this photo matches the photos taken of when our speed was calculated, which would obviously be confounding evidence.
If the time is the same, why isn't your car in the picture?I also think the actual speed being 51 doesn't help matters. To be fair I always push it - might have to rethink that now!
I think this may be one of those cases where it is just easier to suck it up and move on. If your partner has a clean license then they can just take a speed awareness course online. £100 out of pocket, but almost certainly easier than challenging it. They might also lose the option of taking the awareness course if they challenge, but not sure on that.
If the photo showing the posted limit does not show your vehicle I don't see how they can claim that limit was in force when you were there. Basically the dots don't join up.
Unfortunately proving the point is probably time consuming, you can try pointing this out and see what happens but ultimately it is case of pleading not guilty and going to court.
As others have said, if the result is going on a SAC for a £100 that might be the least painful outcome.
Unfortunately proving the point is probably time consuming, you can try pointing this out and see what happens but ultimately it is case of pleading not guilty and going to court.
As others have said, if the result is going on a SAC for a £100 that might be the least painful outcome.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Isn't the problem you face is that you were doing 51. I agree that in a 50 limit, this wouldn't lead to an NIP, but any discretion allowed is just that, discretion, so not set in stone. So now you've been hit with an NIP, even if it was a 50, you're unlikely to get it overturned.
If it can be successfully shown that the limit was indeed 50 rather than 40 when the OP passed beneath the sign, then could it be argued that the 1mph was within the margin of error of the camera, and so it is not beyond reasonable doubt that the speed limit was exceeded?Perhaps the 10% + 2mph threshold for prosecution may consist of 10% discretion and 1mph margin of error.
Hopefully agtlaw will provide an opinion.
ukdriver1981 said:
Can a moderator please allow me to upload just one photo on this occasion?
Try https://postimages.org/Post the link here.
Glenn63 said:
Can t say anything untill we see pictures. As a side note, mandat that section was reduced for over 17 hours? Some ongoing roadworks or something?
I'm assuming that it's a 70mph as shown on the info on top of the photo (NSL 70) and it's been at the NSL for the last 17 hours.mmm-five said:
Glenn63 said:
Can t say anything untill we see pictures. As a side note, mandat that section was reduced for over 17 hours? Some ongoing roadworks or something?
I'm assuming that it's a 70mph as shown on the info on top of the photo (NSL 70) and it's been at the NSL for the last 17 hours.Jader1973 said:
Doesn t a ticket for 51 mean the indicated speed on the speedo was likely above 55?
Indicated speed could have been as low as 52 mph. It wouldn’t under-read but I doubt a modern car would over-read by that much. As far as an error allowance in measured speed goes, 10% + 2 mph is the standard tolerance used across most of the UK. But it is arbitrary and some forces are a bit tighter.
So if the speed limit was 40 mph, you would most likely get away with a measured 46 mph, but get a ticket for 47 mph. It’s basically enough of an allowance that a court wouldn’t be able to question the accuracy of the measuring equipment.
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