Vauxhall Vivaro/Renault Trafic, mechy help needed please.
Discussion
What ho chaps, I'll try to be brief and concise.
2007 Vauxhall Vivaro, knackered engine, no engine management lights on, diesel specialist says lots of diesely issues, engine knackered.
Second hand engine sourced, it is from a 2009 vehicle.
Engine runs, sounds sweet, but engine management light on, cam sensor fault code, diagnostics software indicates timing is incorrect.
The timing was a few degrees out, new chain and sprockets fitted, timing now spot on, signal from cam sensor didn't scope nicely, new sensor fitted, now scopes nicely, signal present at ECU.
Still the same issues on engine management light, cam sensor code.
The engine runs exactly the same without the sensor connected as it does with the sensor connected.
Any specialists on here that can throw any light on this ?
Local diagnostics "expert" has no idea.
Many thanks in advance.
2007 Vauxhall Vivaro, knackered engine, no engine management lights on, diesel specialist says lots of diesely issues, engine knackered.
Second hand engine sourced, it is from a 2009 vehicle.
Engine runs, sounds sweet, but engine management light on, cam sensor fault code, diagnostics software indicates timing is incorrect.
The timing was a few degrees out, new chain and sprockets fitted, timing now spot on, signal from cam sensor didn't scope nicely, new sensor fitted, now scopes nicely, signal present at ECU.
Still the same issues on engine management light, cam sensor code.
The engine runs exactly the same without the sensor connected as it does with the sensor connected.
Any specialists on here that can throw any light on this ?
Local diagnostics "expert" has no idea.
Many thanks in advance.
Edited by Nigel Worc's on Friday 19th May 22:33
The cam sensor on these is only used so the pcm can sync it with the crank to ascertain when number 1 is tdc on compression. And again on these form memory if you don't have the cam sensor the pcm defaults by running solely using the crank sensor and by firing fuel on each number one tdc event - so you end up with a slightly stumbled start. Is yours starting this way?
I believe the cam sensor pickup is on the high pressure pump pulley and there are differences between engines - did you use your original pulley or one from the new engine?
Edit - sorry I was assuming you had the earlier cam belt engine but reading again i see you have the 2l chain driven. Same advice though, check the pickups on only and new engine are the same if you didn't swap them..
I believe the cam sensor pickup is on the high pressure pump pulley and there are differences between engines - did you use your original pulley or one from the new engine?
Edit - sorry I was assuming you had the earlier cam belt engine but reading again i see you have the 2l chain driven. Same advice though, check the pickups on only and new engine are the same if you didn't swap them..
Edited by Scortedvan on Friday 19th May 22:43
Scortedvan said:
The cam sensor on these is only used so the pcm can sync it with the crank to ascertain when number 1 is tdc on compression. And again on these form memory if you don't have the cam sensor the pcm defaults by running solely using the crank sensor and by firing fuel on each number one tdc event - so you end up with a slightly stumbled start. Is yours starting this way?
I believe the cam sensor pickup is on the high pressure pump pulley and there are differences between engines - did you use your original pulley or one from the new engine?
Many thanks for your answer.I believe the cam sensor pickup is on the high pressure pump pulley and there are differences between engines - did you use your original pulley or one from the new engine?
I am not the one doing the work, it is my mate (the van isn't mine), I work in the same building and as his mate I'm trying to help, I am the one who scoped the sensor.
The sensor is picking up off one of the cams, there is a metal part that sticks up, the what I assume is an inductive sensor (it is three wire) detects this raised metal part.
Yes it does have the "awkward" start scenario you describe.
We know it isn't using the cam sensor signal as it runs the same with or without it, we just don't understand why it isn't using this signal.
Scortedvan said:
Edit - sorry I was assuming you had the earlier cam belt engine but reading again i see you have the 2l chain driven. Same advice though, check the pickups on only and new engine are the same if you didn't swap them..
We have three sensors.Edited by Scortedvan on Friday 19th May 22:43
The original, the performance of this one is very poor, it needs to be in very close proximity to metal and doesn't detect the cam "pick up point" (note that it obviously worked on the original engine, as this is one fault it didn't have, but I don't have the original engine to compare the pick up point).
We have two new sensors from the local factor, both work on the vehicle as far back as the ECU, but the ECU isn't using the information.
ok What I'm getting at though is the pickup for the sensor is on the end of the camshaft, are you using the original engines camshaft or the new engines camshaft..
If there is a difference in the tdc references on the cams, then your pcm may be calibrated for the references on the original type and cannot make sense of the feedback from the new type.
After that it may be worth scoping the cam and crank sensors and rolling the engine over by hand to tdc. i believe they are both latching type hall sensors so has you time the engine see what feedback you get.
Then perhaps you can rig the old engine if still available and able to turn over, and carry out the same test for comparison?
If there is a difference in the tdc references on the cams, then your pcm may be calibrated for the references on the original type and cannot make sense of the feedback from the new type.
After that it may be worth scoping the cam and crank sensors and rolling the engine over by hand to tdc. i believe they are both latching type hall sensors so has you time the engine see what feedback you get.
Then perhaps you can rig the old engine if still available and able to turn over, and carry out the same test for comparison?
Edited by Scortedvan on Saturday 20th May 08:11
Scortedvan said:
ok What I'm getting at though is the pickup for the sensor is on the end of the camshaft, are you using the original engines camshaft or the new engines camshaft..
If there is a difference in the tdc references on the cams, then your pcm may be calibrated for the references on the original type and cannot make sense of the feedback from the new type.
After that it may be worth scoping the cam and crank sensors and rolling the engine over by hand to tdc. i believe they are both latching type hall sensors so has you time the engine see what feedback you get.
Then perhaps you can rig the old engine if still available and able to turn over, and carry out the same test for comparison?
Thank you again for the reply.If there is a difference in the tdc references on the cams, then your pcm may be calibrated for the references on the original type and cannot make sense of the feedback from the new type.
After that it may be worth scoping the cam and crank sensors and rolling the engine over by hand to tdc. i believe they are both latching type hall sensors so has you time the engine see what feedback you get.
Then perhaps you can rig the old engine if still available and able to turn over, and carry out the same test for comparison?
Edited by Scortedvan on Saturday 20th May 08:11
I understand exactly what you are saying, but sadly the original engine isn't available to me.
What you say makes perfect sense, I just need a Renault/Vauxhall mechanic to let me know if there is a timing difference between the 2007 & 2009 engine, if that is the case then he'll either need the ECU updating if that is possible, or a 2009 ECU, with all the issues that could bring.
I write software for "Machinery ECUs" (albeit they tend to be called PLCs on machinery), and on occasions I will require another "action" before I will take notice of a particular input/count/whatever, but at least on those controllers you can read the usercode to see what the programmer has intended.
This level of knowledge of how a particular system works doesn't seem well known even amongst those that supposedly specialise in diagnostics on these vehicles.
Yes we mechanics are quite a dense breed - wonder we make it out of bed each day really....
The next step for me would be to phone Renault and check for part number differences between the cams. It's possible the parts illustration may even show a difference on the pickup.
In short though if the timing is right and the signal from the cam and crank is present and clean at the pcm then there's little else that it really needs ruling out at least.
The next step for me would be to phone Renault and check for part number differences between the cams. It's possible the parts illustration may even show a difference on the pickup.
In short though if the timing is right and the signal from the cam and crank is present and clean at the pcm then there's little else that it really needs ruling out at least.
Scortedvan said:
Yes we mechanics are quite a dense breed - wonder we make it out of bed each day really....
The next step for me would be to phone Renault and check for part number differences between the cams. It's possible the parts illustration may even show a difference on the pickup.
In short though if the timing is right and the signal from the cam and crank is present and clean at the pcm then there's little else that it really needs ruling out at least.
I wasn't intending to insult you, apologies if it came across that way, I am just surprised that two "diagnostics experts" supposedly with all the latest diagnostics software, don't have a dam clue as to why the ECU isn't reacting to the cam sensor input, when it was on the old engine.The next step for me would be to phone Renault and check for part number differences between the cams. It's possible the parts illustration may even show a difference on the pickup.
In short though if the timing is right and the signal from the cam and crank is present and clean at the pcm then there's little else that it really needs ruling out at least.
Hence my post on here to see if there are any on PH who do know this particular engine/ECU setup.
My mate doing the work is a 60 year old fully qualified mechanic, but of course mechanics don't usually have in depth software knowledge, they just react to fault codes, cam sensor not reading (it does detect that the sensor is present), and the slightly more indepth text that a normal cause would be a timing issue, which we believe this vehicle doesn't have.....(now).
The engine does run, and it runs nicely, but with the engine management light on and the cam sensor fault code. It also brings up a glow plug fault light, but with no code fault in the ECU, and no explanation from the diagnostics guys.
The sequence is ignition on, all lights go out as you would expect, you can clear any fault codes, start engine (it doesn't start as crisply as I would like), engine runs sweetly, engine management and glow plug lights come on, cam sensor fault code is then logged.
The old engine ran like a bag of s
te, but the cam sensor (or glow plug light) issue is a problem it didn't have.He has researched the problem on line, and there are many posts about it on various forums going back to 2011, but not one of them says if they ever cured it and what the problem turned out to be.
You have been very kind in trying to help, so thank you for that, nobody else has responded so I guess nobody knows of this particular issue.
It looks like the vehicle will have to go to Vauxhall or Renault, but the customer may chose to pull the plug and scrap it, so we may never know the answer.
My mate will have to give the local dealers a ring in the morning and see if they are interested in helping a small local sole trader mechanic, or whether they will only take the job over,
I will keep the post updated so if we do get the problem solved you and I will know the answer and there will be at least one post on the internet that lists whatever the solution turns out to be.
The pick up points on the cam are quite complex, so as you point out that could easily be the issue.
Thanks for your time and replies
Not offended at all - it's fine, just my attempt at forum banter!
Well good luck with it whatever happens. I do have this niggling feeling based on all your diagnostic work that the new engine has got a different camshaft pickup fitted and is giving the pcm 'different information' as to what it requires.
I'll leave you with this .. http://www.bba-reman.com/forums/Topic111461.aspx
The last comment on there shows that there are variations on the camshaft pickups on these engines depending on the application it was fitted to (providing we take the 'internets' word for it). Seems like you should only have one reference per revolution but the cam sensor in the thread was producing four.
Keep us updated whatever happens!
Well good luck with it whatever happens. I do have this niggling feeling based on all your diagnostic work that the new engine has got a different camshaft pickup fitted and is giving the pcm 'different information' as to what it requires.
I'll leave you with this .. http://www.bba-reman.com/forums/Topic111461.aspx
The last comment on there shows that there are variations on the camshaft pickups on these engines depending on the application it was fitted to (providing we take the 'internets' word for it). Seems like you should only have one reference per revolution but the cam sensor in the thread was producing four.
Keep us updated whatever happens!
Not much of an update, but all I have at the moment as I've been working at a factory in Hereford but popped into the workshop this morning to see how he is doing .
AE Clegg, a Vauxhall dealer in Worcester, have assured my mate that there is no difference at all regarding the cam sensor area profiles fitted to the engines in The Renault, Vauxhall, or Nissan badged vehicles, and there is no change between a 2007 and a 2009 engine or ECU (at least in regards to this matter).
There are mutterings at the moment about changing the crank sensor.
I'm not sure what difference that will make as I've shown on a scope that the cam and crank sensors are sensing exactly what they have to sense.
AE Clegg, a Vauxhall dealer in Worcester, have assured my mate that there is no difference at all regarding the cam sensor area profiles fitted to the engines in The Renault, Vauxhall, or Nissan badged vehicles, and there is no change between a 2007 and a 2009 engine or ECU (at least in regards to this matter).
There are mutterings at the moment about changing the crank sensor.
I'm not sure what difference that will make as I've shown on a scope that the cam and crank sensors are sensing exactly what they have to sense.
Well it's a good un then! Agree on the crank sensor, after all currently the engine is using this signal to run and you have already mentioned it runs well.
One thing that I have known (I can't for a second think it's the case on this age vehicle) is a chain wear calculation to be stored by the pcm. Essentially the pcm monitors for error in the cam/crank synchronisation and compensates for it.
This counter needs to be reset to base 0 when a new chain is fitted otherwise the pcm will be adapting for chain wear but not mornitoring chain wear if that makes sense. I've never heard of it being required on these engines though?
One thing that I have known (I can't for a second think it's the case on this age vehicle) is a chain wear calculation to be stored by the pcm. Essentially the pcm monitors for error in the cam/crank synchronisation and compensates for it.
This counter needs to be reset to base 0 when a new chain is fitted otherwise the pcm will be adapting for chain wear but not mornitoring chain wear if that makes sense. I've never heard of it being required on these engines though?
Scortedvan said:
Well it's a good un then! Agree on the crank sensor, after all currently the engine is using this signal to run and you have already mentioned it runs well.
One thing that I have known (I can't for a second think it's the case on this age vehicle) is a chain wear calculation to be stored by the pcm. Essentially the pcm monitors for error in the cam/crank synchronisation and compensates for it.
This counter needs to be reset to base 0 when a new chain is fitted otherwise the pcm will be adapting for chain wear but not mornitoring chain wear if that makes sense. I've never heard of it being required on these engines though?
That's an interesting concept, and exactly the kind of thing I would program to happen (although I tend to auto reset), but I will mention it.One thing that I have known (I can't for a second think it's the case on this age vehicle) is a chain wear calculation to be stored by the pcm. Essentially the pcm monitors for error in the cam/crank synchronisation and compensates for it.
This counter needs to be reset to base 0 when a new chain is fitted otherwise the pcm will be adapting for chain wear but not mornitoring chain wear if that makes sense. I've never heard of it being required on these engines though?
Another update.
I'm afraid this thread is probably going to go the same way as all the others we've found on this subject, the customer is pulling the plug a couple of grand or so after he was advised to scrap it.
The crank sensor has been changed and as I suspected no change, as I couldn't see anything wrong with it.
To answer the questions posed last night :
Software used was Vauxhall Tech 2, in addition my mates code reader is a Launch CRP129 Premium.
Initial fault code P0341
After timing chain replacement P0340
The engine runs very nicely, but of course with a P0340 it won't adjust the timing as it should with load.
No matter what we do we just cannot lose the P0340.
Given what the customer has already spent on it, I can't see why he doesn't just take it to Vauxhall, see what they quote.
Many thanks for the help, I will update the thread if anything changes.
I'm afraid this thread is probably going to go the same way as all the others we've found on this subject, the customer is pulling the plug a couple of grand or so after he was advised to scrap it.
The crank sensor has been changed and as I suspected no change, as I couldn't see anything wrong with it.
To answer the questions posed last night :
Software used was Vauxhall Tech 2, in addition my mates code reader is a Launch CRP129 Premium.
Initial fault code P0341
After timing chain replacement P0340
The engine runs very nicely, but of course with a P0340 it won't adjust the timing as it should with load.
No matter what we do we just cannot lose the P0340.
Given what the customer has already spent on it, I can't see why he doesn't just take it to Vauxhall, see what they quote.
Many thanks for the help, I will update the thread if anything changes.
A shame to read your tale, as an ex mechanic with a vivaro myself I can sympathise! Unfortunately stories like these are going to get more and more common as vehicles and powertrains get more complicated, already as ten year old vehicles start throwing up complicated faults it's becoming apparent you'd have to spend a good chunk of your life studying a particular manufacturer to gain a complete understanding of their systems, it just wont be possible for a single technician to have any more than a rudimentary understanding of multiple systems across dozens of manufacturers in the near future!
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff