Why I didn't buy a Lotus
Discussion
I thought it may be of interest to others to briefly document my recent decision to buy an alternative car rather than an Elise or an Evora....or...anything else.........
I am in the fortunate position of already running a reasonably swift road car (330d) and also a 420kg/390 bhp single seater for weekend fun, but have always had an itch to also own and drive an iconic performance car to fill in between race weekends. I did own, (repair frequently) and have fun in a 501 Elite many years ago........
So selection criteria :
I've never been a big fan of Italian exotica and a fun road car still has to be usable on our cr*p UK roads, so something good to look at, with good handling/brakes, acceptable ride quality, not too wide or with too little ground clearance, fairly quick between the corners and a reasonable idea of residual value after a few years would be needed to scratch the itch.
When you look closely this ends up as a fairly short list of contenders:
Impreza (OK doesn't fit 'good looking'!). I drove the previous and latest 'C' spec hatchback Imprezas - fabulous grip, magic engine, OK brakes, ride quality - not for my back, for raw pace and practicality great value.
Cayman R – only demonstrator available was a PDK 'R' in that strange metallic frog green - well quick enough, great brakes appalling ride quality – on poor B roads and smaller C roads with ripples and pot holes (you know the ones you actually want to use without speed cameras hiding everywhere) it was a joke – also very boomy and noisy, in my view just a track car – a standard 'S' with PASM may be OK.
911 Carrera S - drove manual and PDK – for me 'fun' involves changing gears manually so although PDK very clever not for me - (still has that irritating automatic slipping clutch type rev matching if you don't use the flappy paddles), brilliant steering, brakes, traction, gear change, reasonably fast between corners 'hewn from solid' feel to it, practical for every day use, sounds good. Ride quality quite acceptable if PASM button kept in 'normal' mode. Residuals reasonably predictable if you don't buy a new one. Downside – bit too many of them to feel really special.
Evora - have loved the look of this since launch and in the flesh I find the Evora to be the best looking reasonably priced GT car currently available - I really wanted to love it. Drove a normally aspirated standard gear ratio version - brilliant ride, grip, brakes, steering, quick enough if well revved in gears 1 to 3, a bit limp in the rest so CR ratios desirable. Gearchange OK if not rushed. Build quality superficially good – but looking at a selection of interiors in PH classifieds pictures, and the stock at the dealer I attended, the seat/ door and dash leather doesn't look like it will reflect a £50 -£70k new price tag in a couple of years. Biggest concern is residuals – used prices (as advertised) vary dramatically and represent significant drops from new for low mileage cars.
Elise – have always loved the shape, size and simplicity of the S2/S3, drove a 1.6 S3, great handling, brakes grip, steering, not very quick between corners, ride quality very good. That was OK, probably the SC would suit me except for........it needed a jump start before the test – this is a less than 10k miles 2011 car FFS! Then there was the gearchange , it would not select 2nd when cold, was mega stiff between gears and across the gate, had a 'false neutral' when attempting to select 4th. The charming and knowledgable (lady!) sales person assured me 'they are all like this' - surely not?
Audi TT RS – bit of a wild card I didn't know it existed but spotted it by chance in an EVO test, drove a nice meteor grey one with Audi Magnetic ride (copy of PASM really). Magic engine - genuine 80's Quattro Sport sound track, mega grip, fast between corners, good brakes, Audi build quality, but heavy lifeless steering and the worst crime - the brake pedal is too high compared to the throttle so fluidly moving between gas and brakes just impossible.
Decision – had to be the Carrera in the end (should be picking up a 12 month old example this Saturday -yipee!) - but I really wanted it to be the Evora – maybe in a couple of years when the 2012 model has been around...........
All the above just my opinion and what suits me so if any one is interested please shoot down my observations!
I am in the fortunate position of already running a reasonably swift road car (330d) and also a 420kg/390 bhp single seater for weekend fun, but have always had an itch to also own and drive an iconic performance car to fill in between race weekends. I did own, (repair frequently) and have fun in a 501 Elite many years ago........
So selection criteria :
I've never been a big fan of Italian exotica and a fun road car still has to be usable on our cr*p UK roads, so something good to look at, with good handling/brakes, acceptable ride quality, not too wide or with too little ground clearance, fairly quick between the corners and a reasonable idea of residual value after a few years would be needed to scratch the itch.
When you look closely this ends up as a fairly short list of contenders:
Impreza (OK doesn't fit 'good looking'!). I drove the previous and latest 'C' spec hatchback Imprezas - fabulous grip, magic engine, OK brakes, ride quality - not for my back, for raw pace and practicality great value.
Cayman R – only demonstrator available was a PDK 'R' in that strange metallic frog green - well quick enough, great brakes appalling ride quality – on poor B roads and smaller C roads with ripples and pot holes (you know the ones you actually want to use without speed cameras hiding everywhere) it was a joke – also very boomy and noisy, in my view just a track car – a standard 'S' with PASM may be OK.
911 Carrera S - drove manual and PDK – for me 'fun' involves changing gears manually so although PDK very clever not for me - (still has that irritating automatic slipping clutch type rev matching if you don't use the flappy paddles), brilliant steering, brakes, traction, gear change, reasonably fast between corners 'hewn from solid' feel to it, practical for every day use, sounds good. Ride quality quite acceptable if PASM button kept in 'normal' mode. Residuals reasonably predictable if you don't buy a new one. Downside – bit too many of them to feel really special.
Evora - have loved the look of this since launch and in the flesh I find the Evora to be the best looking reasonably priced GT car currently available - I really wanted to love it. Drove a normally aspirated standard gear ratio version - brilliant ride, grip, brakes, steering, quick enough if well revved in gears 1 to 3, a bit limp in the rest so CR ratios desirable. Gearchange OK if not rushed. Build quality superficially good – but looking at a selection of interiors in PH classifieds pictures, and the stock at the dealer I attended, the seat/ door and dash leather doesn't look like it will reflect a £50 -£70k new price tag in a couple of years. Biggest concern is residuals – used prices (as advertised) vary dramatically and represent significant drops from new for low mileage cars.
Elise – have always loved the shape, size and simplicity of the S2/S3, drove a 1.6 S3, great handling, brakes grip, steering, not very quick between corners, ride quality very good. That was OK, probably the SC would suit me except for........it needed a jump start before the test – this is a less than 10k miles 2011 car FFS! Then there was the gearchange , it would not select 2nd when cold, was mega stiff between gears and across the gate, had a 'false neutral' when attempting to select 4th. The charming and knowledgable (lady!) sales person assured me 'they are all like this' - surely not?
Audi TT RS – bit of a wild card I didn't know it existed but spotted it by chance in an EVO test, drove a nice meteor grey one with Audi Magnetic ride (copy of PASM really). Magic engine - genuine 80's Quattro Sport sound track, mega grip, fast between corners, good brakes, Audi build quality, but heavy lifeless steering and the worst crime - the brake pedal is too high compared to the throttle so fluidly moving between gas and brakes just impossible.
Decision – had to be the Carrera in the end (should be picking up a 12 month old example this Saturday -yipee!) - but I really wanted it to be the Evora – maybe in a couple of years when the 2012 model has been around...........
All the above just my opinion and what suits me so if any one is interested please shoot down my observations!
DallaraV8 said:
That was OK, probably the SC would suit me except for........it needed a jump start before the test – this is a less than 10k miles 2011 car FFS! Then there was the gearchange , it would not select 2nd when cold, was mega stiff between gears and across the gate, had a 'false neutral' when attempting to select 4th. The charming and knowledgable (lady!) sales person assured me 'they are all like this' - surely not?
The only observations I would offer are:- A battery is a battery. All modern cars (with alarms/immobilisers) drain their battery when left standing. The Elise will certainly flatten its battery if left undriven for couple of weeks (or if used repeatedly for customer test drives of only a couple of miles...) without a trickle charger. The fact that the car needed jump starting points to lack of use and poor preparation/maintenance by the dealer rather than any fault of the car itself.
- Your description of the gearchange does not square with my experience of driving several Toyota engined Elises. The K-series gearbox was pretty nasty in feel (though it did work), but the Toyota engined cars I've driven have been much better - really quite good for a mid-engined car. They do seem to be variable jusging by some other people's comments on here (and my personal experience of the K-series gearbox was that it certainly varied from car to car). Sounds like you got a particularly duff one, and the apparently knowledgeable lady sales person was bulls
tting you and/or wasn't as knowledgeable as she came across... certainly the battery issue points to poor preparation of the test car, which is unforgivable.
Would is strike you as wierd if I posted a topic on the porsche forum entitled 'why I didn't buy a porsche'?
the stream of venom such a thing would intitiate would be something to behold!
it seems porsche buyers take as much delight in NOT buying a Lotus and telling everyone about it as they do in buying a porsche.
some here have despaired at the constant comparison between porsche and lotus. Hopefully they (Scuffers!) can now see it's also coming from people who follow the crowd and choose the porsche route.
I'll spare you my views on your porsche but I think you've missed out big-time on the Evora.
the stream of venom such a thing would intitiate would be something to behold!
it seems porsche buyers take as much delight in NOT buying a Lotus and telling everyone about it as they do in buying a porsche.
some here have despaired at the constant comparison between porsche and lotus. Hopefully they (Scuffers!) can now see it's also coming from people who follow the crowd and choose the porsche route.
I'll spare you my views on your porsche but I think you've missed out big-time on the Evora.
The Pits said:
Would is strike you as wierd if I posted a topic on the porsche forum entitled 'why I didn't buy a porsche'?
the stream of venom such a thing would intitiate would be something to behold!
it seems porsche buyers take as much delight in NOT buying a Lotus and telling everyone about it as they do in buying a porsche.
some here have despaired at the constant comparison between porsche and lotus. Hopefully they (Scuffers!) can now see it's also coming from people who follow the crowd and choose the porsche route.
I'll spare you my views on your porsche but I think you've missed out big-time on the Evora.
I thought it was a very well balanced and well thought out post giving insights into different cars tried - including a bad review of the Cayman R. the stream of venom such a thing would intitiate would be something to behold!
it seems porsche buyers take as much delight in NOT buying a Lotus and telling everyone about it as they do in buying a porsche.
some here have despaired at the constant comparison between porsche and lotus. Hopefully they (Scuffers!) can now see it's also coming from people who follow the crowd and choose the porsche route.
I'll spare you my views on your porsche but I think you've missed out big-time on the Evora.
In short, I don't see a problem with the post. However your deep hatred of Porsche is clearly showing through - again. Why don't you try to be a bit more open minded? Both manufacturers make great cars, and both have some not so great cars - as a Porsche and Lotus owner I can attest to that.
The Pits said:
it seems porsche buyers take as much delight in NOT buying a Lotus and telling everyone about it as they do in buying a porsche.
some here have despaired at the constant comparison between porsche and lotus. Hopefully they (Scuffers!) can now see it's also coming from people who follow the crowd and choose the porsche route.
Not altogether true, there are many that own both, simply because, Lotus & Porsches are very different cars (Elises a least), that both do very very well what they are designed to do. What they are not in my view designed to do is compete with each other. The reason there may be so much guff spoken about the 2 is people trying to compare that which cannot. some here have despaired at the constant comparison between porsche and lotus. Hopefully they (Scuffers!) can now see it's also coming from people who follow the crowd and choose the porsche route.
If there ever was a rivalry between porsche and lotus it was years ago and porsche won in a very big way.
The unwashed hoards of savages can't get enough of them.
Porsche is an automotive monolith that will be around forever. They are Man United. They win everything. All the time.
Lotus is a minnow teetering on the brink. The tragedy for many so called 'enthusiasts' is that they won't even realise the scale of what will have been lost if, or when, Lotus goes under. A lot of you porsche sympathisers (people for whom stuff like 'hewn from solid' is all that really matters) probably think TVR were hopeless and they deserved to fail. If only you had an inkling of what they achieved for the price of a garish GT3RS sticker kit you'd have more respect for the design and engineering talent that has gone for good. And TVR isn't just a loss for britain, it's a loss for motoring in general. A bright spark of individuality forever lost to the insidious creep of joyless conservatism.
Posts dedicated to all that's wrong with Lotus written by someone who has just bought a 911 are only helping a company that doesn't need any help.
Worse still, there are idiots on here who are very easily dissuaded by something as trivial as the flat battery story because it's taken as evidence of a negative preconception they have about the company. Of course it's disappointing but its forgiven if it happens at a porsche dealer, terminal if it happens at a lotus dealer. So I have to question what the OP is hoping to achieve from his post?
To persuade more people to buy porsches? To kick Lotus up the arse and motivate them to do better by publicly shaming them?
I prefer the latter (I think?) but I suspect the former is all that's going to come out of it.
The unwashed hoards of savages can't get enough of them.
Porsche is an automotive monolith that will be around forever. They are Man United. They win everything. All the time.
Lotus is a minnow teetering on the brink. The tragedy for many so called 'enthusiasts' is that they won't even realise the scale of what will have been lost if, or when, Lotus goes under. A lot of you porsche sympathisers (people for whom stuff like 'hewn from solid' is all that really matters) probably think TVR were hopeless and they deserved to fail. If only you had an inkling of what they achieved for the price of a garish GT3RS sticker kit you'd have more respect for the design and engineering talent that has gone for good. And TVR isn't just a loss for britain, it's a loss for motoring in general. A bright spark of individuality forever lost to the insidious creep of joyless conservatism.
Posts dedicated to all that's wrong with Lotus written by someone who has just bought a 911 are only helping a company that doesn't need any help.
Worse still, there are idiots on here who are very easily dissuaded by something as trivial as the flat battery story because it's taken as evidence of a negative preconception they have about the company. Of course it's disappointing but its forgiven if it happens at a porsche dealer, terminal if it happens at a lotus dealer. So I have to question what the OP is hoping to achieve from his post?
To persuade more people to buy porsches? To kick Lotus up the arse and motivate them to do better by publicly shaming them?
I prefer the latter (I think?) but I suspect the former is all that's going to come out of it.
I recently swapped my £12k Elise for a £12k 911.
Full story here: linky
It was only for a weekend, but I had a great time. There were issues with the Porsche, but nothing was a show stopper. There are definitely issues with my Elise, which I love. Neither car was perfect, neither flawed enough to be bad.
I was accused of trolling when I wrote that, which was odd.
Full story here: linky
It was only for a weekend, but I had a great time. There were issues with the Porsche, but nothing was a show stopper. There are definitely issues with my Elise, which I love. Neither car was perfect, neither flawed enough to be bad.
I was accused of trolling when I wrote that, which was odd.
The Pits said:
A bright spark of individuality forever lost to the insidious creep of joyless conservatism.
Very eloquently put that man 
I personally currently own a very lovely 997 C4S which took me ages to find in such great condition and spec. I've never owned a Lotus but after a trip to the factory and spin round the test track last year I find myself yearning for an Elise.......do you think this whole argument is just a case of 'the grass is always greener' ??
The Pits said:
Lotus is a minnow teetering on the brink. The tragedy for many so called 'enthusiasts' is that they won't even realise the scale of what will have been lost if, or when, Lotus goes under. A lot of you porsche sympathisers (people for whom stuff like 'hewn from solid' is all that really matters) probably think TVR were hopeless and they deserved to fail. If only you had an inkling of what they achieved for the price of a garish GT3RS sticker kit you'd have more respect for the design and engineering talent that has gone for good. And TVR isn't just a loss for britain, it's a loss for motoring in general. A bright spark of individuality forever lost to the insidious creep of joyless conservatism.
Of the two, I'd rather have a Porsche than a Lotus. But Lotus will eventually go the way of TVR. In fact, they are already gone as we know it. The Elise and the Exige were real high points, but it doesn't seem as though they are interested in that sort of thing anymore. Can they compete with the real big boys of the premium sports car market? I doubt it.It seems a shame that the fans they have in the UK who fell in love with their small, affordable sports car will soon be out in the cold. Thankfully there are still plenty of indies around to support them.
The Pits said:
If there ever was a rivalry between porsche and lotus it was years ago and porsche won in a very big way.
The unwashed hoards of savages can't get enough of them.
Porsche is an automotive monolith that will be around forever. They are Man United. They win everything. All the time.
Lotus is a minnow teetering on the brink. The tragedy for many so called 'enthusiasts' is that they won't even realise the scale of what will have been lost if, or when, Lotus goes under. A lot of you porsche sympathisers (people for whom stuff like 'hewn from solid' is all that really matters) probably think TVR were hopeless and they deserved to fail. If only you had an inkling of what they achieved for the price of a garish GT3RS sticker kit you'd have more respect for the design and engineering talent that has gone for good. And TVR isn't just a loss for britain, it's a loss for motoring in general. A bright spark of individuality forever lost to the insidious creep of joyless conservatism.
Posts dedicated to all that's wrong with Lotus written by someone who has just bought a 911 are only helping a company that doesn't need any help.
Worse still, there are idiots on here who are very easily dissuaded by something as trivial as the flat battery story because it's taken as evidence of a negative preconception they have about the company. Of course it's disappointing but its forgiven if it happens at a porsche dealer, terminal if it happens at a lotus dealer. So I have to question what the OP is hoping to achieve from his post?
To persuade more people to buy porsches? To kick Lotus up the arse and motivate them to do better by publicly shaming them?
I prefer the latter (I think?) but I suspect the former is all that's going to come out of it.
With respect: Someone should buy the car they want, not because it is a british company that is on the brink, or an engineering "icon".The unwashed hoards of savages can't get enough of them.
Porsche is an automotive monolith that will be around forever. They are Man United. They win everything. All the time.
Lotus is a minnow teetering on the brink. The tragedy for many so called 'enthusiasts' is that they won't even realise the scale of what will have been lost if, or when, Lotus goes under. A lot of you porsche sympathisers (people for whom stuff like 'hewn from solid' is all that really matters) probably think TVR were hopeless and they deserved to fail. If only you had an inkling of what they achieved for the price of a garish GT3RS sticker kit you'd have more respect for the design and engineering talent that has gone for good. And TVR isn't just a loss for britain, it's a loss for motoring in general. A bright spark of individuality forever lost to the insidious creep of joyless conservatism.
Posts dedicated to all that's wrong with Lotus written by someone who has just bought a 911 are only helping a company that doesn't need any help.
Worse still, there are idiots on here who are very easily dissuaded by something as trivial as the flat battery story because it's taken as evidence of a negative preconception they have about the company. Of course it's disappointing but its forgiven if it happens at a porsche dealer, terminal if it happens at a lotus dealer. So I have to question what the OP is hoping to achieve from his post?
To persuade more people to buy porsches? To kick Lotus up the arse and motivate them to do better by publicly shaming them?
I prefer the latter (I think?) but I suspect the former is all that's going to come out of it.
Furthermore, as long as everything he wrote was true, people have every right to go on their preconceptions of a company. More to the point, if a dealership can't be bothered to keep the batteries topped up, then people would be justified in avoiding them, as it could give the impression they are lazy.
Plus, you seem to be taking quite a personal take on this. But I'l counter. TVR are famous for being dangerous and not put together all to well, although on the flipside they are apparently a lot of fun.
Still, can you blame someone for wanting a car that feels solid and has advanced technology that makes it driveable and safe, whilst being very fast and desirable? You can't just moan at people for chosing the better made product. Especially if that someone has had a couple of bad experiences.
You would do well to live in a communist country, where individual views and opinions are banned incase they effect the state. That way when somebody voices their opipion to others, you can put them in jail for risk of jeapordising the home grown auto industry.
You see I did the opposite OP, I won a 997 for a year and when it went back I went straight out and bought an Evora.
IMHO the ride and handling of the basic Porsches is overrated, and although a lovely piece of kit it was generally quite dull (and I say that as a 928 GTS owner and a huge Porsche fan). The Lotus is better to drive and has a real sense of occasion.
Yes you have to make a few sacrifices in terms of perceived quality and a bit of practicality but I think it's worth it.
IMHO the ride and handling of the basic Porsches is overrated, and although a lovely piece of kit it was generally quite dull (and I say that as a 928 GTS owner and a huge Porsche fan). The Lotus is better to drive and has a real sense of occasion.
Yes you have to make a few sacrifices in terms of perceived quality and a bit of practicality but I think it's worth it.
Caulkhead said:
That was a long way of saying between my heart and my wallet, the wallet won.
Don't think that's fair TBH. The OP seemed to have an equally good opinion of the 911 he drove to the Evora, but was more impressed by the build quality/materials and felt all things considered it was a better overall proposition.I personally thought the OP's post was well considered and interesting, unlike a few of the replies he has received....
Baryonyx said:
Of the two, I'd rather have a Porsche than a Lotus. But Lotus will eventually go the way of TVR. In fact, they are already gone as we know it. The Elise and the Exige were real high points, but it doesn't seem as though they are interested in that sort of thing anymore. Can they compete with the real big boys of the premium sports car market? I doubt it.
It seems a shame that the fans they have in the UK who fell in love with their small, affordable sports car will soon be out in the cold. Thankfully there are still plenty of indies around to support them.
What? The Elise SC has just been relaunched with a new 220bhp engine, the new Exige has got a V6 and a new body, the Elise CR is cheaper and lighter than the standard car, and the five year plan has a new Elise in it (due in three years?). That seems to cover their current customers nicely.It seems a shame that the fans they have in the UK who fell in love with their small, affordable sports car will soon be out in the cold. Thankfully there are still plenty of indies around to support them.
And I think sums up why the Evora hasn't sold much - it doesn't matter how good a car is to drive compared to its competition, that on its own wont cause it to sell, especially at that price point. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff