What am I getting wrong about sports cars?
Discussion
cerb4.5lee said:
biggbn said:
pheonix478 said:
Ken_Code said:
I don’t like how 911s drive.
Fair enough. That's different to claiming they are "inherently flawed", they're just different. Ken_Code said:
...it’s not particularly easy to be able to take one out for a proper drive.
this is very true but if there's ever a chance of getting behind the wheel of a GT3/2, any of them, take it. They are very special cars.I took my 997.1 C2s to Goodwood on an EVO trackday today. There were lots of much more hardcore 911s there, including MR 992 GT3s etc.
I doubt anyone had more fun, the old 997 is ridiculously willing to be thrown round what is quite an unforgiving circuit.
I really don’t think I want a GT3 now (at least not a PDK one) as faster is not necessarily better and you can really ring the neck of the 997 without going crazy.
Amazing value for what it is.
CABC said:
otolith said:
That perception seems to be a lot more bulletproof than their actual engineering! The engine issues they had would have sunk a lot of manufacturers.
I see modern Porsche as 2 distinct brands: vanilla/VW accountant driven or GT series. The latter have bespoke engines and more recently double wishbones all round. Wine bar spec Pork is quite sad. Mine isn't a GT3 (I wanted rear seats) but in its current form as sorted a road car as I could ever want. Probably much quicker than a GT3 in the real world too..
Ken_Code said:
pheonix478 said:
Ken_Code said:
I don’t like how 911s drive.
Fair enough. That's different to claiming they are "inherently flawed", they're just different. Ken_Code said:
...it’s not particularly easy to be able to take one out for a proper drive.
this is very true but if there's ever a chance of getting behind the wheel of a GT3/2, any of them, take it. They are very special cars.I suspect that if they were designing a car with the 911’s design brief nowadays it’d not be rear-engined.
Buying one and just driving it without having it sorted is a bit of a waste as I have found out.
Take any 911 to Center Gravity and you can be sure it’s set up
properly for your taste.
Done well and they’re very rewarding a much more benign on the limit than people say.
I agree, buying a 911and not getting it set up is a waste of a great car.
properly for your taste.
Done well and they’re very rewarding a much more benign on the limit than people say.
I agree, buying a 911and not getting it set up is a waste of a great car.
Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Tuesday 2nd July 22:24
plenty said:
It's been a few years, but I remember looking at the 20VT lump under the bonnet and being struck by how far forward it was positioned. And a quick search shows the weight is distributed 66F/34R. It certainly drove like it - by far the most front-heavy car I've driven, and I've owned lots of FWDs.
Despite this I did like it - it was characterful and that 20VT motor was a peach.
I'd agree with all that - test drove one back in period and was taken by both the power and delivery of the motor, but also the propensity to understeer and the lack of bolstering on the (slippery) leather seats...at one point was rather worried I'd end up sitting on the long spindly gearstick! Despite this I did like it - it was characterful and that 20VT motor was a peach.
Essentially you're wrong / you believed journalists
Nothing is fun at 30
If you'd read a few pages of posts on here, you'll know many of us think peak cars for enthusiasts was the 90s and the peak sports car in 1990 was a Mk1 MX5
If you want something with a better noise, stick a V6 or V8 in one or try an MR2 V6
I've owned literally hundreds of cars and my personal favorites are still a supercharged Mk 1 MX5 and a V6 MR2 Mk2 closely followed by an FD RX7, but it only makes sense at far higher speeds
Work your way through all the popular Japanese '90s cars, you'll find one you love
Nothing is fun at 30
If you'd read a few pages of posts on here, you'll know many of us think peak cars for enthusiasts was the 90s and the peak sports car in 1990 was a Mk1 MX5
If you want something with a better noise, stick a V6 or V8 in one or try an MR2 V6
I've owned literally hundreds of cars and my personal favorites are still a supercharged Mk 1 MX5 and a V6 MR2 Mk2 closely followed by an FD RX7, but it only makes sense at far higher speeds
Work your way through all the popular Japanese '90s cars, you'll find one you love
KTMsm said:
Work your way through all the popular Japanese '90s cars, you'll find one you love
I've had a few nice performance cars since I had my S14a 200SX(I think they came out in 1994, but mine was a 2000 model). However that car is still one of my favourites by a mile though(it was mildly tuned to around 250bhp). I had it from 2002 until 2006(did 40k miles in it), and I loved it to bits for sure. So I'm completely with you with what you're saying.
This has been perfection for me for the last 17 years. Very lightweight ,over 400 BHP/ton, wonderfully balanced, fun at 30 mph or silly speeds. You drive it,and in those moments the world is just you and the car.Even passengers comment how nice it is to “feel” a car.
Most importantly of all though,it’s absolutely the right size for our B roads compared with anything modern.I’ve lost count of the times I’ve seen owners of bigger “sports cars” trying to enjoy themselves and being utterly hampered by the sheer bulk of what they are driving, and that frustration would drive me potty.
Most importantly of all though,it’s absolutely the right size for our B roads compared with anything modern.I’ve lost count of the times I’ve seen owners of bigger “sports cars” trying to enjoy themselves and being utterly hampered by the sheer bulk of what they are driving, and that frustration would drive me potty.
Edited by sjc on Wednesday 3rd July 05:26
Ken_Code said:
I don’t like how 911s drive.
After a few test drives which did nothing for me I decided that surely the journalists couldn’t all be wrong, and so bought a brand new 997 to give it a proper try.
I really did do everything to find what others found in it, tried all sorts of driving styles, but while it was fast, comfortable, and a nice place to be, it just never delivered in terms of driving enjoyment. It turns out that different people do like different things, and I don’t like any of the 911s I’ve tried.
Strangely I found the Emira with a similar weight distribution to be a delight to drive.
I’d like to try one of the more extreme versions, to see if they are better, but it’s not particularly easy to be able to take one out for a proper drive.
It’s certainly a personal thing.After a few test drives which did nothing for me I decided that surely the journalists couldn’t all be wrong, and so bought a brand new 997 to give it a proper try.
I really did do everything to find what others found in it, tried all sorts of driving styles, but while it was fast, comfortable, and a nice place to be, it just never delivered in terms of driving enjoyment. It turns out that different people do like different things, and I don’t like any of the 911s I’ve tried.
Strangely I found the Emira with a similar weight distribution to be a delight to drive.
I’d like to try one of the more extreme versions, to see if they are better, but it’s not particularly easy to be able to take one out for a proper drive.
I had 10 laps of Goodwood in an Emira (4 cyl) courtesy of Lotus and then the rest of the day in my 997 C2s.
The Emira was good, but nowhere near as involving as the Porsche. I wouldn’t swap them.
(The interior quality was a massive improvement over previous lotus’ though and the engine sounds very good.)
Oilchange said:
Get in a Lotus Elise/Caterham/MX5 to see what a sportscar should feel like, something manual with rear wheel drive or possibly a hot Renault or ST Ford. Nothing like it.
cerb4.5lee said:
For example I love my 370Z Roadster for the noise, and I love the F82 M4 for the performance, and love my Caterham for its low weight and the lack of driving aids.
We're spoiled for choice really. Whether you want something GT-ish or something so rudimentary that where you sit is metal with holes drilled, there's something for everyone. Do your clutch or Doppelkupplungsgetriebe. Digital screen or needles vibrating. Normally aspirated or forced induction. Overhead cam or overhead valve (yes I said that). Even a workable pool of rotaries remaining, at least over here (US).
We'd require days to go over the relative merits of RWD, FWD, AWD, 4x4 and so on.
Oh, and the EVs. Who doesn't love 100% torque at 0 RPM?
Not sure the OP is "getting wrong" anything about sports cars. Horses for courses.
sjc said:
This has been perfection for me for the last 17 years. Very lightweight ,over 400 BHP/ton, wonderfully balanced, fun at 30 mph or silly speeds. You drive it,and in those moments the world is just you and the car.Even passengers comment how nice it is to “feel” a car.
Most importantly of all though,it’s absolutely the right size for our B roads compared with anything modern.I’ve lost count of the times I’ve seen owners of bigger “sports cars” trying to enjoy themselves and being utterly hampered by the sheer bulk of what they are driving, and that frustration would drive me potty.
While it isn't especially quick, I do love the Caterham for its size, and it feels so small on the road. I feels good on a B road, and it just doesn't feel anywhere near as wide as the other cars I have in comparison. Most importantly of all though,it’s absolutely the right size for our B roads compared with anything modern.I’ve lost count of the times I’ve seen owners of bigger “sports cars” trying to enjoy themselves and being utterly hampered by the sheer bulk of what they are driving, and that frustration would drive me potty.
Edited by sjc on Wednesday 3rd July 05:26
Obviously I wouldn't fancy an HGV crashing into me, and you can feel a touch vulnerable in it, but for purity it is brilliant though.
I've always loved your Noble by the way too.
KTMsm said:
Nothing is fun at 30
I sort of agree, but it depends on your definition of fun.I think a case could be made for something like a Cobra / Chimaera being fun at 30 - roof down, characterful V8 burbling just ahead of you shaking the car gently, able to be roused with a brief prod of the throttle, instant throttle response thanks to a lightweight car and n/asp high-torque engine. On those occasions the NSL sign appears the V8 then vocally throws the car down the road.
Ditto a Morgan Plus 8, with the wood everywhere and those bonnet louvres ahead of you.
None of them are a scalpel-sharp sports car like a Porsche, but for the OP's situation they'd probably be better.
sjc said:
This has been perfection for me for the last 17 years. Very lightweight ,over 400 BHP/ton, wonderfully balanced, fun at 30 mph or silly speeds. You drive it,and in those moments the world is just you and the car.Even passengers comment how nice it is to “feel” a car.
Most importantly of all though,it’s absolutely the right size for our B roads compared with anything modern.I’ve lost count of the times I’ve seen owners of bigger “sports cars” trying to enjoy themselves and being utterly hampered by the sheer bulk of what they are driving, and that frustration would drive me potty.
Yep, that'd do nicely.Most importantly of all though,it’s absolutely the right size for our B roads compared with anything modern.I’ve lost count of the times I’ve seen owners of bigger “sports cars” trying to enjoy themselves and being utterly hampered by the sheer bulk of what they are driving, and that frustration would drive me potty.
Edited by sjc on Wednesday 3rd July 05:26
Probably feels a little hamstrung at town speeds though, which may frustrate the OP.
havoc said:
KTMsm said:
Nothing is fun at 30
I sort of agree, but it depends on your definition of fun.I think a case could be made for something like a Cobra / Chimaera being fun at 30 - roof down, characterful V8 burbling just ahead of you shaking the car gently, able to be roused with a brief prod of the throttle, instant throttle response thanks to a lightweight car and n/asp high-torque engine. On those occasions the NSL sign appears the V8 then vocally throws the car down the road.
Ditto a Morgan Plus 8, with the wood everywhere and those bonnet louvres ahead of you.
None of them are a scalpel-sharp sports car like a Porsche, but for the OP's situation they'd probably be better.
cerb4.5lee said:
havoc said:
KTMsm said:
Nothing is fun at 30
I sort of agree, but it depends on your definition of fun.I think a case could be made for something like a Cobra / Chimaera being fun at 30 - roof down, characterful V8 burbling just ahead of you shaking the car gently, able to be roused with a brief prod of the throttle, instant throttle response thanks to a lightweight car and n/asp high-torque engine. On those occasions the NSL sign appears the V8 then vocally throws the car down the road.
Ditto a Morgan Plus 8, with the wood everywhere and those bonnet louvres ahead of you.
None of them are a scalpel-sharp sports car like a Porsche, but for the OP's situation they'd probably be better.
As an only car, maybe (although the Porsche has rear seats), but as a fun/ track day toy, older is definitely better.
cerb4.5lee said:
havoc said:
KTMsm said:
Nothing is fun at 30
I sort of agree, but it depends on your definition of fun.I think a case could be made for something like a Cobra / Chimaera being fun at 30 - roof down, characterful V8 burbling just ahead of you shaking the car gently, able to be roused with a brief prod of the throttle, instant throttle response thanks to a lightweight car and n/asp high-torque engine. On those occasions the NSL sign appears the V8 then vocally throws the car down the road.
Ditto a Morgan Plus 8, with the wood everywhere and those bonnet louvres ahead of you.
None of them are a scalpel-sharp sports car like a Porsche, but for the OP's situation they'd probably be better.
havoc said:
sjc said:
This has been perfection for me for the last 17 years. Very lightweight ,over 400 BHP/ton, wonderfully balanced, fun at 30 mph or silly speeds. You drive it,and in those moments the world is just you and the car.Even passengers comment how nice it is to “feel” a car.
Most importantly of all though,it’s absolutely the right size for our B roads compared with anything modern.I’ve lost count of the times I’ve seen owners of bigger “sports cars” trying to enjoy themselves and being utterly hampered by the sheer bulk of what they are driving, and that frustration would drive me potty.
Yep, that'd do nicely.Most importantly of all though,it’s absolutely the right size for our B roads compared with anything modern.I’ve lost count of the times I’ve seen owners of bigger “sports cars” trying to enjoy themselves and being utterly hampered by the sheer bulk of what they are driving, and that frustration would drive me potty.
Edited by sjc on Wednesday 3rd July 05:26
Probably feels a little hamstrung at town speeds though, which may frustrate the OP.
Your name seems familiar, did you have one years back by memory?
cerb4.5lee said:
I've said it many times, but I enjoyed the Cerbera as much at 30 as I did at 130. Even at 30 you can still hear the exhaust, and you still feel connected to the engine too I reckon. Not many cars can master that in my experience.
Certainly exhaust noise helps.My dad has an AMG GT C - inferior to his previous 992.2 Turbo S in just about every measurable way, but he just loves that it makes a noise on startup, and burbling around town. You see, my mum hates being a passenger so he can't always drive in a spirited way, but he can always enjoy the noise. Sadly, modern cars with OPFs have made that nearly impossible now.
Back in Feb 2020 I read an article in EVO (270) written by hugely experienced journalist and production road tester John Barker that really struck a chord. So much so that my mk1 MX5 build and my Alpine A310 purchase were a response to it.
The EVO Blueprint
'New performance cars are too big, too heavy and too powerful. What we actually need for a great drive is much less.'
It's so good that I'm going to post it here and hope that nobody minds. Surely if you've got to page 3 of this thread you are genuinely 'one of us'
I encourage you all to read it. The Bullseye page doesn't photograph well so I've copied it to make it clearer, adding only the A110 which was mentioned in the text. I've also zoomed in on some of the text to make it more readable.
What do you think? Are they right?
For reference John Barker wrote for Performance Car prior to EVO, and I know he was on the first PCOTY test in 1990. But he won't have written this article without consulting a few others
The EVO Blueprint
'New performance cars are too big, too heavy and too powerful. What we actually need for a great drive is much less.'
It's so good that I'm going to post it here and hope that nobody minds. Surely if you've got to page 3 of this thread you are genuinely 'one of us'
I encourage you all to read it. The Bullseye page doesn't photograph well so I've copied it to make it clearer, adding only the A110 which was mentioned in the text. I've also zoomed in on some of the text to make it more readable.
What do you think? Are they right?
For reference John Barker wrote for Performance Car prior to EVO, and I know he was on the first PCOTY test in 1990. But he won't have written this article without consulting a few others
Edited by sassthathoopie on Wednesday 3rd July 20:01
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