The Best ///M/Barge/General Rant/Look at this/O/T(Vol XIX)
Discussion
I have to say that holding Porsche up as an example of engineering integrity is something one needs to do very much on a case by case basis.
I've not been under the skin of anything more modern than a 430, but, in the scheme of things I prefer a chocolate suspension component, to a chocolate engine. It has to be said that things such as the welding quality, even on the visible components, is dismal and wouldn't have escaped a Honda factory decades ago.
I've not been under the skin of anything more modern than a 430, but, in the scheme of things I prefer a chocolate suspension component, to a chocolate engine. It has to be said that things such as the welding quality, even on the visible components, is dismal and wouldn't have escaped a Honda factory decades ago.
I was being slightly mischievous and controversial, also I don’t think I expressed the point perfectly. Also I forgot a crucial caveat - I’m talking about old world Porsche, pre-996. Crucial point. The modern ones, great thought they are, are mass produced items with little intrinsic interest and plenty of chocolate engines and components. Great to drive though some of them are.
We all know (I hope) to quote a post above ‘it’s not how fast you go, it’s how you go fast’. ‘How’ to me involves an appreciation of the car as an engineering and design object. Ie what you see and feel when you take one apart and work on it, how it’s designed and constructed. And with the exception of (some, not all) engines Ferraris have never been particularly well constructed. I have a photo Cheburator sent me, somewhere, of the chassis welds on an 812 GTS. Absolute rubbish!
My personal take is that there is something very special about 70s and 80s Porsches which means they have an appeal even when they are slow.
But overal the point should not be taken too seriously, it was internet equivalent of bar room talk after 4 pints
We all know (I hope) to quote a post above ‘it’s not how fast you go, it’s how you go fast’. ‘How’ to me involves an appreciation of the car as an engineering and design object. Ie what you see and feel when you take one apart and work on it, how it’s designed and constructed. And with the exception of (some, not all) engines Ferraris have never been particularly well constructed. I have a photo Cheburator sent me, somewhere, of the chassis welds on an 812 GTS. Absolute rubbish!
My personal take is that there is something very special about 70s and 80s Porsches which means they have an appeal even when they are slow.
But overal the point should not be taken too seriously, it was internet equivalent of bar room talk after 4 pints
ferrisbueller said:
Something can be tactile and engaging without needing to be travelling at Mach 3. This is the problem with modern dross. 500 hp feels boring.
An S1 Elise isn't fast but it's utterly joyous.
Manufacturers have got swept up in the clamour for numbers as people assess the joy of driving as a game of Top Trumps and not as a sensory experience.
Agree with this, have you tried an Alpine A110?An S1 Elise isn't fast but it's utterly joyous.
Manufacturers have got swept up in the clamour for numbers as people assess the joy of driving as a game of Top Trumps and not as a sensory experience.
Gearbox aside, which I don't mind as much as I thought I might, for a modern it gets 90% of it right.
barchetta_boy said:
I was being slightly mischievous and controversial, also I don’t think I expressed the point perfectly. Also I forgot a crucial caveat - I’m talking about old world Porsche, pre-996. Crucial point. The modern ones, great thought they are, are mass produced items with little intrinsic interest and plenty of chocolate engines and components. Great to drive though some of them are.
We all know (I hope) to quote a post above ‘it’s not how fast you go, it’s how you go fast’. ‘How’ to me involves an appreciation of the car as an engineering and design object. Ie what you see and feel when you take one apart and work on it, how it’s designed and constructed. And with the exception of (some, not all) engines Ferraris have never been particularly well constructed. I have a photo Cheburator sent me, somewhere, of the chassis welds on an 812 GTS. Absolute rubbish!
My personal take is that there is something very special about 70s and 80s Porsches which means they have an appeal even when they are slow.
But overal the point should not be taken too seriously, it was internet equivalent of bar room talk after 4 pints
Agreed. What I find odd about the Ferrari construction is that there's no reason for it. They could afford to do it nicely, why not do it? A customer paying £300k doesn't justify it. It may not add any structural benefit in terms of the numbers, but in terms of the feel and presentation of workmanship and quality, it should be done. One conclusion must be that the average buyer doesn't care. The badge matters, such details do not. A friend has a few motorbikes. You can spend hours gawping at the detail, the quality and engineering that has gone into them. And we do. Things like the welds on those are absolutely <chef's kiss>We all know (I hope) to quote a post above ‘it’s not how fast you go, it’s how you go fast’. ‘How’ to me involves an appreciation of the car as an engineering and design object. Ie what you see and feel when you take one apart and work on it, how it’s designed and constructed. And with the exception of (some, not all) engines Ferraris have never been particularly well constructed. I have a photo Cheburator sent me, somewhere, of the chassis welds on an 812 GTS. Absolute rubbish!
My personal take is that there is something very special about 70s and 80s Porsches which means they have an appeal even when they are slow.
But overal the point should not be taken too seriously, it was internet equivalent of bar room talk after 4 pints
I tend to think that if you get your branding right you can get away with a lot.
I have zero first hand experience of Porsche pre-993. And I've only been a passenger in 993s. I really like the 996, but the shortcomings in the engineering department are a real shame. That's not why I don't have one anymore.
ETA 812 Superfast, borrowed from Reddit.
Edited by ferrisbueller on Friday 21st June 17:25
Rocket. said:
ferrisbueller said:
Something can be tactile and engaging without needing to be travelling at Mach 3. This is the problem with modern dross. 500 hp feels boring.
An S1 Elise isn't fast but it's utterly joyous.
Manufacturers have got swept up in the clamour for numbers as people assess the joy of driving as a game of Top Trumps and not as a sensory experience.
Agree with this, have you tried an Alpine A110?An S1 Elise isn't fast but it's utterly joyous.
Manufacturers have got swept up in the clamour for numbers as people assess the joy of driving as a game of Top Trumps and not as a sensory experience.
Gearbox aside, which I don't mind as much as I thought I might, for a modern it gets 90% of it right.
On paper there's a lot to like about the A110. Sensible level of performance, lightweight, good packaging, low depreciation etc but the gearbox is a real sticking point for me and everything I've watched suggests a somewhat bland engine. Per the above, it shouldn't just be a means of propulsion, it should be an experience. However, within the constraints of reality, it's difficult to find anything which doesn't mean there's compromise somewhere. A preference for NA engines, for example, is a tough ask now and has had to yield. Perhaps my stance on gearboxes needs to go, too.
I've also found that owning anything "nice" comes with a burden of ownership I just never anticipated, not least third party damage. I've sold things I intended to keep forever, and I've no doubt that numbers-wise I've made bad decisions. I'm cold enough to buy things with a view to a financial return longer term, but have found the compromises associated with that too much to justify it.
Genuinely, I find it difficult to find anything worth pursuing at present. I can gawp for hours at stuff in the thread and elsewhere but I'm highly unlikely to own any of it.
Fast Bug said:
Talking of crappy Porsche, I'm off to Porsche by the lake tomorrow. I'm hoping they'll direct me to park next to a Carrera GT or 959 so they can bask in the wonder of a leggy 996 
I drove past the Nurburgring last weekend and the amount of tasty Porsche and modded modern BMWs was staggering. Twas ever thus, I guess, GT3s and E36s 20 years ago etc.
Getting the Eurotunnel back on Monday with loads of stuff returning from Le Mans was also a tasty coincidence! An amazing array of machinery notwithstanding the dodgy welding hidden under the 296 Ferrari.
Getting away from obvious things..you could buy one of these on Sunday, some quirkier than others...
https://www.aguttes.com/en/lot/150672/25654214-199...
https://www.aguttes.com/en/lot/150672/25659399-196...
https://www.aguttes.com/en/lot/150672/25662059-196...
https://www.aguttes.com/en/lot/150672/25659402-195...
https://www.aguttes.com/en/lot/150672/25654214-199...
https://www.aguttes.com/en/lot/150672/25659399-196...
https://www.aguttes.com/en/lot/150672/25662059-196...
https://www.aguttes.com/en/lot/150672/25659402-195...
ferrisbueller said:
Agreed. What I find odd about the Ferrari construction is that there's no reason for it. They could afford to do it nicely, why not do it? A customer paying £300k doesn't justify it. It may not add any structural benefit in terms of the numbers, but in terms of the feel and presentation of workmanship and quality, it should be done. One conclusion must be that the average buyer doesn't care. The badge matters, such details do not. A friend has a few motorbikes. You can spend hours gawping at the detail, the quality and engineering that has gone into them. And we do. Things like the welds on those are absolutely <chef's kiss>
I tend to think that if you get your branding right you can get away with a lot.
I have zero first hand experience of Porsche pre-993. And I've only been a passenger in 993s. I really like the 996, but the shortcomings in the engineering department are a real shame. That's not why I don't have one anymore.
ETA 812 Superfast, borrowed from Reddit.
Thats fairly shocking in this day and age but they are consistent and living upto the reputation of 'pigeon sI tend to think that if you get your branding right you can get away with a lot.
I have zero first hand experience of Porsche pre-993. And I've only been a passenger in 993s. I really like the 996, but the shortcomings in the engineering department are a real shame. That's not why I don't have one anymore.
ETA 812 Superfast, borrowed from Reddit.
Edited by ferrisbueller on Friday 21st June 17:25
t' welding that they have had since at least the 1960'sI guess the 'Old Man' would still be happy though, 'We sell you an engine and give you the rest for free.'
ferrisbueller said:
I haven't. I've not even sat in one. If it's good enough for Gordon Murray etc. I generally align with Gordon's ideologies, though I can't get onboard with his dress sense! He and I probably both regret not keeping our respective NSXs.
On paper there's a lot to like about the A110. Sensible level of performance, lightweight, good packaging, low depreciation etc but the gearbox is a real sticking point for me and everything I've watched suggests a somewhat bland engine. Per the above, it shouldn't just be a means of propulsion, it should be an experience. However, within the constraints of reality, it's difficult to find anything which doesn't mean there's compromise somewhere. A preference for NA engines, for example, is a tough ask now and has had to yield. Perhaps my stance on gearboxes needs to go, too.
I've also found that owning anything "nice" comes with a burden of ownership I just never anticipated, not least third party damage. I've sold things I intended to keep forever, and I've no doubt that numbers-wise I've made bad decisions. I'm cold enough to buy things with a view to a financial return longer term, but have found the compromises associated with that too much to justify it.
Genuinely, I find it difficult to find anything worth pursuing at present. I can gawp for hours at stuff in the thread and elsewhere but I'm highly unlikely to own any of it.
I saw an NSX in Le Mans last weekend and it still looked so right, I feel your pain there, I am a bit surprised GM hasn't got another in his collection.On paper there's a lot to like about the A110. Sensible level of performance, lightweight, good packaging, low depreciation etc but the gearbox is a real sticking point for me and everything I've watched suggests a somewhat bland engine. Per the above, it shouldn't just be a means of propulsion, it should be an experience. However, within the constraints of reality, it's difficult to find anything which doesn't mean there's compromise somewhere. A preference for NA engines, for example, is a tough ask now and has had to yield. Perhaps my stance on gearboxes needs to go, too.
I've also found that owning anything "nice" comes with a burden of ownership I just never anticipated, not least third party damage. I've sold things I intended to keep forever, and I've no doubt that numbers-wise I've made bad decisions. I'm cold enough to buy things with a view to a financial return longer term, but have found the compromises associated with that too much to justify it.
Genuinely, I find it difficult to find anything worth pursuing at present. I can gawp for hours at stuff in the thread and elsewhere but I'm highly unlikely to own any of it.
Alpine engine is a 6.5 out of 10, sounds half decent for what it is, nice twin cam type sound and turbo noises but exhaust pops and bangs can be tiresome. A little high reving 2.5 v6 and a manual box would be great but we all know why it didn't and couldn't happen, as you say it's all about compromise. For now it's a keeper, might have said that before...
The dealers and buyer experience though are enough to put me off selling or buying another car for while.
Fast Bug said:
Talking of crappy Porsche, I'm off to Porsche by the lake tomorrow. I'm hoping they'll direct me to park next to a Carrera GT or 959 so they can bask in the wonder of a leggy 996
This is just down the road from me so I may pop along and have a look around, I'll keep an eye out for youRocket. said:
ferrisbueller said:
I haven't. I've not even sat in one. If it's good enough for Gordon Murray etc. I generally align with Gordon's ideologies, though I can't get onboard with his dress sense! He and I probably both regret not keeping our respective NSXs.
On paper there's a lot to like about the A110. Sensible level of performance, lightweight, good packaging, low depreciation etc but the gearbox is a real sticking point for me and everything I've watched suggests a somewhat bland engine. Per the above, it shouldn't just be a means of propulsion, it should be an experience. However, within the constraints of reality, it's difficult to find anything which doesn't mean there's compromise somewhere. A preference for NA engines, for example, is a tough ask now and has had to yield. Perhaps my stance on gearboxes needs to go, too.
I've also found that owning anything "nice" comes with a burden of ownership I just never anticipated, not least third party damage. I've sold things I intended to keep forever, and I've no doubt that numbers-wise I've made bad decisions. I'm cold enough to buy things with a view to a financial return longer term, but have found the compromises associated with that too much to justify it.
Genuinely, I find it difficult to find anything worth pursuing at present. I can gawp for hours at stuff in the thread and elsewhere but I'm highly unlikely to own any of it.
I saw an NSX in Le Mans last weekend and it still looked so right, I feel your pain there, I am a bit surprised GM hasn't got another in his collection.On paper there's a lot to like about the A110. Sensible level of performance, lightweight, good packaging, low depreciation etc but the gearbox is a real sticking point for me and everything I've watched suggests a somewhat bland engine. Per the above, it shouldn't just be a means of propulsion, it should be an experience. However, within the constraints of reality, it's difficult to find anything which doesn't mean there's compromise somewhere. A preference for NA engines, for example, is a tough ask now and has had to yield. Perhaps my stance on gearboxes needs to go, too.
I've also found that owning anything "nice" comes with a burden of ownership I just never anticipated, not least third party damage. I've sold things I intended to keep forever, and I've no doubt that numbers-wise I've made bad decisions. I'm cold enough to buy things with a view to a financial return longer term, but have found the compromises associated with that too much to justify it.
Genuinely, I find it difficult to find anything worth pursuing at present. I can gawp for hours at stuff in the thread and elsewhere but I'm highly unlikely to own any of it.
Alpine engine is a 6.5 out of 10, sounds half decent for what it is, nice twin cam type sound and turbo noises but exhaust pops and bangs can be tiresome. A little high reving 2.5 v6 and a manual box would be great but we all know why it didn't and couldn't happen, as you say it's all about compromise. For now it's a keeper, might have said that before...
The dealers and buyer experience though are enough to put me off selling or buying another car for while.
I've got a few chirps and whooshes, no pops and bangs thankfully.
Dealers being twunts is another reason not to engage in the process.
Rocket. said:
Fast Bug said:
Talking of crappy Porsche, I'm off to Porsche by the lake tomorrow. I'm hoping they'll direct me to park next to a Carrera GT or 959 so they can bask in the wonder of a leggy 996
This is just down the road from me so I may pop along and have a look around, I'll keep an eye out for youthegrouch said:
Getting away from obvious things..you could buy one of these on Sunday, some quirkier than others...
https://www.aguttes.com/en/lot/150672/25654214-199...
Always liked these.https://www.aguttes.com/en/lot/150672/25654214-199...
Not sure why I find these appealing:
Up for auction at the weekend here: https://angliacarauctions.co.uk/classic-auctions/2...
Did a little due diligence on it and found the previous two sales:
Nov 21 at Bonhams
Buyer sold it via a dealer in Scotland some time later
Up for auction at the weekend here: https://angliacarauctions.co.uk/classic-auctions/2...
Did a little due diligence on it and found the previous two sales:
Nov 21 at Bonhams
Buyer sold it via a dealer in Scotland some time later
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