Does a low top speed in a performance car bother you?
Discussion
GT9 said:
Dunbar871 said:
Why are you a member of an enthusiasts' motoring site ? Speed Matters damn it !
hand that PH card in TODAY
Seriously impressive lurking skills for such a newbie to quote a tagline that the site dropped a decade ago. hand that PH card in TODAY
murphyaj said:
Do you have any evidence to suggest this hypothetical situation has ever existed; that of a speed limiter being used as an excuse to fit brakes that fade as you come down a mountain? I'd think that the scenario of descending a mountain is massively more likely than hard stops from v-max, so if anything that is the scenario that any car manufacturer will be more likely to design them for.
I have certainly seen plenty of road tests over the years of cars with a very high top speed where the brakes faded terribly as soon as they are taken on track, so I'm not sure it really works that way.
Let's be honest, the thread is really about EVs not ICEs.I have certainly seen plenty of road tests over the years of cars with a very high top speed where the brakes faded terribly as soon as they are taken on track, so I'm not sure it really works that way.
As per the Cyberster thread that led Lee to start this one, speed limits for EVs are much more useful in a way that is not always relevant to ICEs.
Lower production costs, simpler powertrain, better efficiency at normal speeds, more feel at lower speeds (yeah, yeah, I know, EVs weigh the same as the sun), unusable range at very high speeds.
Save for extreme version, there is little to be gained by engineering the car for speeds it will never be sued for.
The 'piece of mind' thing is conjecture, and with regen braking, which is absent from ICEs, not relevant.
cerb4.5lee said:
Silvanus said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Mr E said:
I own an elise. Straight line speed isn’t what it’s for
I've got an F82 M4, and that is all about its straight line speed for me(and going sideways should you wish). I do also have a Caterham 7 though, and that is much more about the corners in comparison, because its top speed is only 122mph. It could be argued that my Caterham isn't a performance car really, because it only has a 140bhp. But Caterham do offer much faster/more powerful versions though to be fair.
More to driving than aim, plant foot and receive acceleration and speed, its a big part of it but sounds like you need to calm down a bit if you are regularly doing well over 100 mph trying to enjoy your cars. If you cant enjoy them below 100 mph on the roads then you are on borrowed time, license wise.
Seriously, do a track day in your Caterham, get it fettled beforehand and book some tuition and you will get more out of that than doing 150 in an automatic BMW. On track you can consistently get near the limit and explore the car, on the road its little glimpses every now and again, frustration and potential for prosecution.
Any car I can buy will have enough top speed, the roads however dont, you can push the envelope a little but a top speed of 125 is academic unless playing Top Trumps, or it should be.
J4CKO said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Silvanus said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Mr E said:
I own an elise. Straight line speed isn’t what it’s for
I've got an F82 M4, and that is all about its straight line speed for me(and going sideways should you wish). I do also have a Caterham 7 though, and that is much more about the corners in comparison, because its top speed is only 122mph. It could be argued that my Caterham isn't a performance car really, because it only has a 140bhp. But Caterham do offer much faster/more powerful versions though to be fair.
More to driving than aim, plant foot and receive acceleration and speed, its a big part of it but sounds like you need to calm down a bit if you are regularly doing well over 100 mph trying to enjoy your cars. If you cant enjoy them below 100 mph on the roads then you are on borrowed time, license wise.
Seriously, do a track day in your Caterham, get it fettled beforehand and book some tuition and you will get more out of that than doing 150 in an automatic BMW. On track you can consistently get near the limit and explore the car, on the road its little glimpses every now and again, frustration and potential for prosecution.
Any car I can buy will have enough top speed, the roads however dont, you can push the envelope a little but a top speed of 125 is academic unless playing Top Trumps, or it should be.
Only yesterday I was thinking that I'd like to really get to know the Caterham more, and I don't think that will ever really happen just on the road to be honest.
They are track cars first and foremost for sure, so I really need to put my big boy pants on...and finally get myself on a track I think as you say.
DonkeyApple said:
In a way it's like buying a plane thinking you'll be free to just go and fly but then realising there is no freedom and that you must plan where you go and follow the prescribed rules. It's why pilots are some of the dullest people at the party, essentially actuaries who weren't good enough at maths so had to operate sky trucks to a living. 
You made me chuckle with this. One of my neighbours is an ex pilot, and he is an intelligent chap to be fair to him, but he is as boring as hell though! J4CKO said:
Not sure that car is the thing lacking performance here Lee
More to driving than aim, plant foot and receive acceleration and speed, its a big part of it but sounds like you need to calm down a bit if you are regularly doing well over 100 mph trying to enjoy your cars. If you cant enjoy them below 100 mph on the roads then you are on borrowed time, license wise.
Seriously, do a track day in your Caterham, get it fettled beforehand and book some tuition and you will get more out of that than doing 150 in an automatic BMW. On track you can consistently get near the limit and explore the car, on the road its little glimpses every now and again, frustration and potential for prosecution.
Any car I can buy will have enough top speed, the roads however dont, you can push the envelope a little but a top speed of 125 is academic unless playing Top Trumps, or it should be.
I believe you have a hot hatch with over 300 hp ? I'm thinking even on the average b road around here you will be doing well over 100mph at many points when having fun and yes the slower bits will be just as much fun due to camber changes, crests ,jumps ,switchbacks, hairpins and every other corner combination possible.More to driving than aim, plant foot and receive acceleration and speed, its a big part of it but sounds like you need to calm down a bit if you are regularly doing well over 100 mph trying to enjoy your cars. If you cant enjoy them below 100 mph on the roads then you are on borrowed time, license wise.
Seriously, do a track day in your Caterham, get it fettled beforehand and book some tuition and you will get more out of that than doing 150 in an automatic BMW. On track you can consistently get near the limit and explore the car, on the road its little glimpses every now and again, frustration and potential for prosecution.
Any car I can buy will have enough top speed, the roads however dont, you can push the envelope a little but a top speed of 125 is academic unless playing Top Trumps, or it should be.
I've been down a few as a passenger in a friends 400hp Focus RS, he is a far better driver than i am so have no problem despite not being a good passenger a lot of the time. The average speeds over even fairly tight roads are incredible in that thing and on sticky tyres you would have to do something incredibly stupid to crash. It basically did bike speeds and was a lot of fun. Obviously have to pick your days and you won't be doing that with much in the way of traffic around but up here it is entirely possible to do on a regular basis without causing anyone any problems due to the amount of technical b roads with little traffic on them at times. The actual speed is just a function of having a "sporting drive" it's not the target.
I have to admit to not being comfortable doing big speeds in a car due to the lack of space if something happens whereas the bike was fine due to the amount of options you have should something untoward happen and for the people saying 125 mph is high speed, do they know it's only one or maybe two (for the mechanically sympathetic) gear changes away on most sports bikes made in the last twenty years ?
Another thing from this discussion i can't comprehend is enthusiasts owning cars or bikes they have never maxed out. Every single vehicle i have ever owned i have had flat out (the bikes every time i was out on them bar the odd occasion,usually when it was raining) although i've only owned one car that would do 140mph to now and every motoring enthusiast i know is the same, including those owning Mclarens, Ferraris etc. These days i don't have a bike and my motoring fun is reduced to driving a slow car quickly on some great roads and i enjoy that a lot but i can't deny it is as fun as ragging a sports bike down some nice a or b roads all day.
cerb4.5lee said:
DonkeyApple said:
In a way it's like buying a plane thinking you'll be free to just go and fly but then realising there is no freedom and that you must plan where you go and follow the prescribed rules. It's why pilots are some of the dullest people at the party, essentially actuaries who weren't good enough at maths so had to operate sky trucks to a living.
You made me chuckle with this. One of my neighbours is an ex pilot, and he is an intelligent chap to be fair to him, but he is as boring as hell though! My JDM car has the 180kph/112mph limiter, I come up against it fairly frequently just pootling around locally, though it's not much of an issue on our motorways. On the Continent however it's a nuisance, a recent trip to Germany had it on the limiter for hours on end, as a cruising speed it was OK'ish, but a touch more would've been nice and the car is more than up to it, road/traffic conditions allowing. The problem is that the limiter is like a misfire so I have to feather the throttle slightly to keep the cruising speed up but keep it off the misfire, that was quite a pain. Another JDM feature is cruise control that won't set above 108kph/67mph, so I can't cruise at UK/European motorway speeds, let alone peg it just below the 180/112 limiter.
limited top speed vs actual top speed
if the car has an actual top speed of 112mph then it will already be working hard at 80-90. so no thanks
if its artifically limited then its not so much of an issue if the car performs well up to 100mph. and also it means the limiter can be removed.
if the car has an actual top speed of 112mph then it will already be working hard at 80-90. so no thanks
if its artifically limited then its not so much of an issue if the car performs well up to 100mph. and also it means the limiter can be removed.
Like most numbers with cars be it 0-60, top speed, in gear acceleration times, bhp etc. It's all about numbers that make you happy as an owner and they don't always equate real life. I meant my CLS is limited to 155, with the limiter off one guy got 190 out of one on an autobahn. I've not taken a car over 100mph in years (for a variety of obvious reasons).
So really high top speed is really for people who are taking a car on track which is a tiny percentage of people and even then I suspect top end isn't the priority.
In short, I'm not too bothered.
So really high top speed is really for people who are taking a car on track which is a tiny percentage of people and even then I suspect top end isn't the priority.
In short, I'm not too bothered.
biggbn said:
....and the converse, those denigrating people as needing to go on mumsnet etc if they don't want a fast car. It would be wonderful if we could all just be a little kinder, wouldn't it?
Absolutely, PH is quite poor on both kindness, but crucially in being able to stop and seen the merit in an alternative perspective without attacking it first. Kindness is not weakness.Anyone who says, I don't want a fast car, but I get that others do, is fine with me. I like driving my MGB with about 40hp left.
murphyaj said:
Baldchap said:
A performance car limited to 112 or 125 will have brakes designed to stop it from 112/125, not 155 or more. This ethos will continue across the entire car. Why would a manufacturer put in the effort to build systems with excessive telerances?
Then one day you are on track or driving hard down a mountainside having a lovely time and your under-engineered brakes fade and you die. All because of speed limiters.
So we can see from example that it is not speed, but lack of speed that kills.
I'll stick to a fast car with working brakes and stay alive please.
Do you have any evidence to suggest this hypothetical situation has ever existed; that of a speed limiter being used as an excuse to fit brakes that fade as you come down a mountain? I'd think that the scenario of descending a mountain is massively more likely than hard stops from v-max, so if anything that is the scenario that any car manufacturer will be more likely to design them for.Then one day you are on track or driving hard down a mountainside having a lovely time and your under-engineered brakes fade and you die. All because of speed limiters.
So we can see from example that it is not speed, but lack of speed that kills.
I'll stick to a fast car with working brakes and stay alive please.
I have certainly seen plenty of road tests over the years of cars with a very high top speed where the brakes faded terribly as soon as they are taken on track, so I'm not sure it really works that way.
I think there’s a clear difference between a car with a limited top speed, and a car than can only do a certain speed.
Cars with low top speeds have traditionally been slow when accelerating from motorway speeds, and that’s somewhat annoying. However, if a car was limited to 125 (say) but still pulls hard at 70 then I don’t have a problem with it myself…
Cars with low top speeds have traditionally been slow when accelerating from motorway speeds, and that’s somewhat annoying. However, if a car was limited to 125 (say) but still pulls hard at 70 then I don’t have a problem with it myself…
Alex_225 said:
Like most numbers with cars be it 0-60, top speed, in gear acceleration times, bhp etc. It's all about numbers that make you happy as an owner and they don't always equate real life. I meant my CLS is limited to 155, with the limiter off one guy got 190 out of one on an autobahn. I've not taken a car over 100mph in years (for a variety of obvious reasons).
So really high top speed is really for people who are taking a car on track which is a tiny percentage of people and even then I suspect top end isn't the priority.
In short, I'm not too bothered.
That is what I love so much about roads, because you can actually drive at a higher top speed on the road than you ever could on most tracks. Plus most tracks turn their noses up at you if you go sideways, and they don't like loud exhausts either. So really high top speed is really for people who are taking a car on track which is a tiny percentage of people and even then I suspect top end isn't the priority.
In short, I'm not too bothered.
It is weird, because tracks are meant to be fun, but you have to adhere to a tank load of rules and regulations though, and it kind of defeats the object in many ways I think.
wc98 said:
Another thing from this discussion i can't comprehend is enthusiasts owning cars or bikes they have never maxed out. Every single vehicle i have ever owned i have had flat out (the bikes every time i was out on them bar the odd occasion,usually when it was raining) although i've only owned one car that would do 140mph to now and every motoring enthusiast i know is the same, including those owning Mclarens, Ferraris etc. These days i don't have a bike and my motoring fun is reduced to driving a slow car quickly on some great roads and i enjoy that a lot but i can't deny it is as fun as ragging a sports bike down some nice a or b roads all day.
I've always done the max out thing too. Although I was only brave enough to see 160mph in the Cerbera though, because it felt like it wanted to take off! I did see 165mph on the clock in the E92 M3 though, and that was rock solid and very stable in comparison. I've only been to 147mph in the F82 M4 though...so I must try harder I reckon!
cerb4.5lee said:
That is what I love so much about roads, because you can actually drive at a higher top speed on the road than you ever could on most tracks. Plus most tracks turn their noses up at you if you go sideways, and they don't like loud exhausts either.
It is weird, because tracks are meant to be fun, but you have to adhere to a tank load of rules and regulations though, and it kind of defeats the object in many ways I think.
Track days remind me of Cloud Cookoo land in the Lego Movie. “…you just said NO a thousand times.”It is weird, because tracks are meant to be fun, but you have to adhere to a tank load of rules and regulations though, and it kind of defeats the object in many ways I think.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff