What am I getting wrong about sports cars?
Discussion
J77wck said:
I tried a couple of sports cars before in new what I liked. For me a manual Porsche or a v8 F-type is my sweet spot for road driving. When I have the money I would like to try a mclaren.
Funnily enough, I was only browsing V8 F -Types last night as a potential replacement for the 370. I'd miss the manual gearbox from the 370 I think, and I'd probably moan about the weight of the Jag a bit. However, they're a great looking thing though, plus they offer performance in spades too. I like the idea of a McLaren, but their reliability worries me though, and I went through a lot of pain regarding that with the Cerbera for 6 years in fairness. So I wouldn't want that again to be honest.
Baldchap said:
cerb4.5lee said:
From my experience with cars, stay well away from BMW if you want comfort and a nice ride. My F82 M4 is a great car in many ways for me, but comfortable it is definitely not.
Why are performance/sporty cars so difficult to get right as a full package? It is properly frustrating think.
Alpina make comfortable BMWs that are spectacularly capable...Why are performance/sporty cars so difficult to get right as a full package? It is properly frustrating think.
In terms of why it's so hard to find the full package, the answer is simple: An involved, tactile drive is a tiring long distance cruiser. The feedback and environment that makes the interactions exciting is exactly the stuff that tires you out over long distances. Features like closing exhaust valves make a bigger difference than you'd think but ultimately the cars perfect for each task are two different cars.
A lot of people think old cars are best simply because the NVH was intrusive, but I don't fall for that. I love good modern powerplants and don't rate a lot of older stuff. I've done the journey I'm currently on in an older NA car and it was nowhere near as good as the supercharged lump in the Evora.
Like I said above, just pick the right car for the journey (or the destination).
I bought a 1978 Alpine A310 V6 last year. It has expensive unicorn rear tyres which forced me to go on a deep dive and work out what I really wanted from the car. The tyre situation means that many cars are now on wide 15" tyres (look wrong, and scare people in the wet), and many have also fitted lowered aftermarket suspension. Keeping the 13" wheels and fitting 60 profile tyres would drop the ride height, lower the gearing and not really work aesthetically to my eye.
I wanted a characterful car that I could really 'drive' on UK backroads; feel like I was fundamental in how well we were making progress. Part of that was being able to handle the lumps and bumps. Part of that was also having a car narrow enough so that you can pass other cars with fewer issues and position the car to see around corners.
Contemporary road tests in English are few and far between, but those I found were extremely complimentary. The guy I bought it from knows his stuff like few others in the UK, and had owned it 30 years. Even though the road test was about as far from ideal as they ever get he confirmed that those tests were on the money.
I still don't have the car quite in the sweet spot yet, but I can tell you that driving a car 1.64m wide with flush mirrors, that weighs 980kg as a 2+2, and sits on 70 section 13" tyres is a revelation on a pock marked British backroad. It glides serenely over bumps as if they are not there; bumps that I have to plan for in the very well suspended NSX and have to brake hard for in my wife's R50 Mini Cooper. Our old E91 330i would have been airborne!
Tyre sidewall height is also good for steering feel and communication of what is happening with the chassis (at the expense of speed of response and outright grip). Swapping back to 185/60/14 from 195/50/15 the year before on the MX5 had previously illustrated this for me.
But the other thing you notice about the Alpine is the absolutely delicious steering: It steers like a Caterham on 13" tyres because they have a similar amount of weight over the front axle, a 185 wide tyre, completely unassisted direct steering through an appropriate steering wheel, and both have double wishbone suspension at the front (Alpine at the rear too).
It is as I suspected. The Alpine has the chassis of a rally car: Designed and built at the factory in Dieppe that also bought us A110 new and old, GTA & A610, R5 Turbo, Clio Williams/172/182 & Trophy, Megane R26R, plus the mid engined R5 and Clio.
Conclusion: Company historical knowledge and culture when it comes to suspension/chassis design is a thing. French backroads are more like British ones than German ones are. The Italians can build a great car for our roads, but they are less consistent at it. The Japanese you imagine would have amazing roads, yet they too can build a friendly chassis.
Car designers and marketeers love massive wheels and low profile tyres. EU bureaucrats love to add weight & body bulk though legislation. Car designers and marketeers counter this by fitting even bigger wheels with even lower profile tyres - the Germans particularly. So we are now in a position where people feel they need to drive a 2 tonne SUV with steamroller 22" tyres to be comfy and get a view in traffic.
I have compromised my view and safety in traffic, plus ease of use & maintenance in my car choice but it's worth it to me. As always it comes down to what your priorities are as sadly you can rarely have it all.
cerb4.5lee said:
J77wck said:
I tried a couple of sports cars before in new what I liked. For me a manual Porsche or a v8 F-type is my sweet spot for road driving. When I have the money I would like to try a mclaren.
Funnily enough, I was only browsing V8 F -Types last night as a potential replacement for the 370. I'd miss the manual gearbox from the 370 I think, and I'd probably moan about the weight of the Jag a bit. However, they're a great looking thing though, plus they offer performance in spades too. I like the idea of a McLaren, but their reliability worries me though, and I went through a lot of pain regarding that with the Cerbera for 6 years in fairness. So I wouldn't want that again to be honest.
cerb4.5lee said:
...
Why are performance/sporty cars so difficult to get right as a full package? It is properly frustrating I think.
..
As a general rule because they are now so heavy, cheaper performance cars with passive suspensions 'need' a rock hard ride to maintain any kind of body control on track; the curse of Nurburgring bragging rights. Interestingly, cars like the Taycan are so obscenely overweight, and expensive enough, to necessitate and afford active air suspension and active roll bars which results in a freakishly good ride. The less track focused McLarens are pretty special too. You're right about BMW, the last one I was in was an M2C and it was really, stupidly harsh IMO and the tyre noise was ridiculous. I'm sure it makes sense on those lovely smooth Eifel roads, not so much on the M25. Why are performance/sporty cars so difficult to get right as a full package? It is properly frustrating I think.
..
sassthathoopie said:
Whilst engine power, width of power band, and outright grip has improved over time, generally I think that curb weight, steering feel, and suspension comfort & forgivingness have decreased.
I bought a 1978 Alpine A310 V6 last year. It has expensive unicorn rear tyres which forced me to go on a deep dive and work out what I really wanted from the car. The tyre situation means that many cars are now on wide 15" tyres (look wrong, and scare people in the wet), and many have also fitted lowered aftermarket suspension. Keeping the 13" wheels and fitting 60 profile tyres would drop the ride height, lower the gearing and not really work aesthetically to my eye.
I wanted a characterful car that I could really 'drive' on UK backroads; feel like I was fundamental in how well we were making progress. Part of that was being able to handle the lumps and bumps. Part of that was also having a car narrow enough so that you can pass other cars with fewer issues and position the car to see around corners.
Contemporary road tests in English are few and far between, but those I found were extremely complimentary. The guy I bought it from knows his stuff like few others in the UK, and had owned it 30 years. Even though the road test was about as far from ideal as they ever get he confirmed that those tests were on the money.
I still don't have the car quite in the sweet spot yet, but I can tell you that driving a car 1.64m wide with flush mirrors, that weighs 980kg as a 2+2, and sits on 70 section 13" tyres is a revelation on a pock marked British backroad. It glides serenely over bumps as if they are not there; bumps that I have to plan for in the very well suspended NSX and have to brake hard for in my wife's R50 Mini Cooper. Our old E91 330i would have been airborne!
Tyre sidewall height is also good for steering feel and communication of what is happening with the chassis (at the expense of speed of response and outright grip). Swapping back to 185/60/14 from 195/50/15 the year before on the MX5 had previously illustrated this for me.
But the other thing you notice about the Alpine is the absolutely delicious steering: It steers like a Caterham on 13" tyres because they have a similar amount of weight over the front axle, a 185 wide tyre, completely unassisted direct steering through an appropriate steering wheel, and both have double wishbone suspension at the front (Alpine at the rear too).
It is as I suspected. The Alpine has the chassis of a rally car: Designed and built at the factory in Dieppe that also bought us A110 new and old, GTA & A610, R5 Turbo, Clio Williams/172/182 & Trophy, Megane R26R, plus the mid engined R5 and Clio.
Conclusion: Company historical knowledge and culture when it comes to suspension/chassis design is a thing. French backroads are more like British ones than German ones are. The Italians can build a great car for our roads, but they are less consistent at it. The Japanese you imagine would have amazing roads, yet they too can build a friendly chassis.
Car designers and marketeers love massive wheels and low profile tyres. EU bureaucrats love to add weight & body bulk though legislation. Car designers and marketeers counter this by fitting even bigger wheels with even lower profile tyres - the Germans particularly. So we are now in a position where people feel they need to drive a 2 tonne SUV with steamroller 22" tyres to be comfy and get a view in traffic.
I have compromised my view and safety in traffic, plus ease of use & maintenance in my car choice but it's worth it to me. As always it comes down to what your priorities are as sadly you can rarely have it all.
I think this fantastic post requires at least a picture....I bought a 1978 Alpine A310 V6 last year. It has expensive unicorn rear tyres which forced me to go on a deep dive and work out what I really wanted from the car. The tyre situation means that many cars are now on wide 15" tyres (look wrong, and scare people in the wet), and many have also fitted lowered aftermarket suspension. Keeping the 13" wheels and fitting 60 profile tyres would drop the ride height, lower the gearing and not really work aesthetically to my eye.
I wanted a characterful car that I could really 'drive' on UK backroads; feel like I was fundamental in how well we were making progress. Part of that was being able to handle the lumps and bumps. Part of that was also having a car narrow enough so that you can pass other cars with fewer issues and position the car to see around corners.
Contemporary road tests in English are few and far between, but those I found were extremely complimentary. The guy I bought it from knows his stuff like few others in the UK, and had owned it 30 years. Even though the road test was about as far from ideal as they ever get he confirmed that those tests were on the money.
I still don't have the car quite in the sweet spot yet, but I can tell you that driving a car 1.64m wide with flush mirrors, that weighs 980kg as a 2+2, and sits on 70 section 13" tyres is a revelation on a pock marked British backroad. It glides serenely over bumps as if they are not there; bumps that I have to plan for in the very well suspended NSX and have to brake hard for in my wife's R50 Mini Cooper. Our old E91 330i would have been airborne!
Tyre sidewall height is also good for steering feel and communication of what is happening with the chassis (at the expense of speed of response and outright grip). Swapping back to 185/60/14 from 195/50/15 the year before on the MX5 had previously illustrated this for me.
But the other thing you notice about the Alpine is the absolutely delicious steering: It steers like a Caterham on 13" tyres because they have a similar amount of weight over the front axle, a 185 wide tyre, completely unassisted direct steering through an appropriate steering wheel, and both have double wishbone suspension at the front (Alpine at the rear too).
It is as I suspected. The Alpine has the chassis of a rally car: Designed and built at the factory in Dieppe that also bought us A110 new and old, GTA & A610, R5 Turbo, Clio Williams/172/182 & Trophy, Megane R26R, plus the mid engined R5 and Clio.
Conclusion: Company historical knowledge and culture when it comes to suspension/chassis design is a thing. French backroads are more like British ones than German ones are. The Italians can build a great car for our roads, but they are less consistent at it. The Japanese you imagine would have amazing roads, yet they too can build a friendly chassis.
Car designers and marketeers love massive wheels and low profile tyres. EU bureaucrats love to add weight & body bulk though legislation. Car designers and marketeers counter this by fitting even bigger wheels with even lower profile tyres - the Germans particularly. So we are now in a position where people feel they need to drive a 2 tonne SUV with steamroller 22" tyres to be comfy and get a view in traffic.
I have compromised my view and safety in traffic, plus ease of use & maintenance in my car choice but it's worth it to me. As always it comes down to what your priorities are as sadly you can rarely have it all.
pheonix478 said:
I think this fantastic post requires at least a picture....
Glad you liked it. 
Fréquelin inspired engine build and exhaust the only non-standard parts
Don't have any decent pics with the proper Michelin XDX tyres; but this car is a doppelgänger for mine aside from the wing mirror rotation
Edited by sassthathoopie on Tuesday 25th June 17:24
ITP said:
Great.
Bet that is fun to drive. Many on here will dismiss it due to having no ‘infotainment’ and a slow 0-60 time!
Only issue I see are probably parts availability and, as with all older cars, not wanting to be in a crash!
When you have triple down draught Webers just behind your head you don't really feel the need for bluetooth telephone conversations Bet that is fun to drive. Many on here will dismiss it due to having no ‘infotainment’ and a slow 0-60 time!
Only issue I see are probably parts availability and, as with all older cars, not wanting to be in a crash!
It used to have quite a slow 0-60 time... But now it makes 245bhp; so it's 30bhp down on the NSX, but weighs a Honda Goldwing motorcycle less
Colin Chapman at work! In fact there is a lot of cross over between Lotus and Alpine chassis design at that time, and Lotus were using Renault parts.
I posted a great EVO article about old Alpines here on PH last year.
It's worth a read if you haven't seen it, and dates from Oct 2013 before Alpine was properly relaunched.
I think of it as being safer than a motorbike
Matt_T said:
Thanks for posting sassthathoopie! Great car collection you have there.
Is the Alpine a steel space frame with fibre panels? The engine seems to be on a steel subframe?
Cheers Is the Alpine a steel space frame with fibre panels? The engine seems to be on a steel subframe?
Clearly we're into very similar cars!Yes the A310 has a steel backbone chassis (box section unlike the tube section of the A110 on which it is loosely based). It was beefed up for the introduction of the V6 in 1977. In 1980 the phase 2 V6 was introduced featuring the rear suspension from the mid engine R5 turbo. The second gen cars ask a bit less of the driver, and weigh about 40kg more. They also have a few bodywork changes.
The engine only has two chassis mounts and there is no metal car structure behind those mounts; just the GRP body, the engine and exhaust.
As cars get newer they get more and more capable, quicker, smoother, quieter and easier to drive. My green car is quicker because it is easier to drive quick. But I enjoy driving the older car more. Do I prefer one or the other - not sure. I enjoy both for their differences.
Maybe the 996 was a sweet spot. I don't know. I've read lots of threads about cars over the years. And every year there is a discussion about some new model not being better than the older one and I used to think what rubbish but now I get it. Newer might be newer but it doesn't necessarily mean better. Sometimes older is better.
Newer is often easier. Easier to live with and easier to drive and it wont break or need fixing as much.
I know the silver car gives me much more feedback. But it breaks a lot, well a lot more than the green car.
When I was a kid I had some rubbish cars. One of my favourites was a 45bhp Panda. It was a bad car but I enjoyed it. Kids nowadays have more like twice the bhp, twice the weight, twice the size, ABS, AC, TC, ESP, Airbags etc etc etc. My Panda had wind up windows and no central locking. If I had kids would I let them drive round in an old Panda - God No. I drove to Prague, from the UK, and back in my 900cc Fiat Cinquecento. Would I do that again today - God no.
Maybe the 996 was a sweet spot. I don't know. I've read lots of threads about cars over the years. And every year there is a discussion about some new model not being better than the older one and I used to think what rubbish but now I get it. Newer might be newer but it doesn't necessarily mean better. Sometimes older is better.
Newer is often easier. Easier to live with and easier to drive and it wont break or need fixing as much.
I know the silver car gives me much more feedback. But it breaks a lot, well a lot more than the green car.
When I was a kid I had some rubbish cars. One of my favourites was a 45bhp Panda. It was a bad car but I enjoyed it. Kids nowadays have more like twice the bhp, twice the weight, twice the size, ABS, AC, TC, ESP, Airbags etc etc etc. My Panda had wind up windows and no central locking. If I had kids would I let them drive round in an old Panda - God No. I drove to Prague, from the UK, and back in my 900cc Fiat Cinquecento. Would I do that again today - God no.
plenty said:
Mr Tidy said:
That's the issue - it depends what compromise you - in this case the OP - are willing to make.
I did a hoon around the Borders are in March based out of Newcastle and the 300 mile trip up in my Z4M was pretty tiring. It would have been much more relaxing in my BMW 330i!
But driving once I got there the Z4M came into its' own which made it all worthwhile.
And to further illustrate how individual preferences can vary, my Z4M is the limo in my fleet I did a hoon around the Borders are in March based out of Newcastle and the 300 mile trip up in my Z4M was pretty tiring. It would have been much more relaxing in my BMW 330i!
But driving once I got there the Z4M came into its' own which made it all worthwhile.
It would be my first choice for the schlep up to Newcastle as it's the best cruiser, but the last choice for hooning around the Borders as it's the least sharp and focused (and the suspension wouldn't cope with the undulating tarmac in that part of the world).
cerb4.5lee said:
Funnily enough, I was only browsing V8 F -Types last night as a potential replacement for the 370. I'd miss the manual gearbox from the 370 I think, and I'd probably moan about the weight of the Jag a bit. However, they're a great looking thing though, plus they offer performance in spades too.
I like the idea of a McLaren, but their reliability worries me though, and I went through a lot of pain regarding that with the Cerbera for 6 years in fairness. So I wouldn't want that again to be honest.
The F-Types do seem lardy but they look stunning - and 350/370Zs aren't exactly lightweights anyway! I like the idea of a McLaren, but their reliability worries me though, and I went through a lot of pain regarding that with the Cerbera for 6 years in fairness. So I wouldn't want that again to be honest.
What about a manual F-Type V6S?
If I ever had a McLaren budget I'd be looking for a manual R8, preferably a V10, or a Gallardo!
sassthathoopie said:
ITP said:
Great.
Bet that is fun to drive. Many on here will dismiss it due to having no ‘infotainment’ and a slow 0-60 time!
Only issue I see are probably parts availability and, as with all older cars, not wanting to be in a crash!
When you have triple down draught Webers just behind your head you don't really feel the need for bluetooth telephone conversations Bet that is fun to drive. Many on here will dismiss it due to having no ‘infotainment’ and a slow 0-60 time!
Only issue I see are probably parts availability and, as with all older cars, not wanting to be in a crash!
It used to have quite a slow 0-60 time... But now it makes 245bhp; so it's 30bhp down on the NSX, but weighs a Honda Goldwing motorcycle less
Colin Chapman at work! In fact there is a lot of cross over between Lotus and Alpine chassis design at that time, and Lotus were using Renault parts.
I posted a great EVO article about old Alpines here on PH last year.
It's worth a read if you haven't seen it, and dates from Oct 2013 before Alpine was properly relaunched.
I think of it as being safer than a motorbike
I get the old car/motorbike reference too safety wise. I’ve felt safer with wearing modern bike safety gear than normal clothes in old cars sometimes!
Edited by ITP on Tuesday 25th June 23:47
To me , there's fast cars and there's sports cars . Some fast cars - Sevens, Atoms , Lotuses and some Porsches , inter alia - are also sports cars. Some sports cars - MX5 , a lot of older stuff- aren't especially fast , or are even slow by modern standards , but their size, weight ,wieldiness and feel make them sports cars .
But an F Type , a hulking great AMG , lairy Audi or BMW ? Nope - big , heavy , undoubtedly very fast but utterly lacking the sense of frivolity a sports car has as part of its DNA . An AMG 's body language is all testosterone pumped 'did you spill my pint ?' aggression . But an Atom's is very different - 'yup , I know this car looks absurd, but it's fun and you can share the joke'.
But an F Type , a hulking great AMG , lairy Audi or BMW ? Nope - big , heavy , undoubtedly very fast but utterly lacking the sense of frivolity a sports car has as part of its DNA . An AMG 's body language is all testosterone pumped 'did you spill my pint ?' aggression . But an Atom's is very different - 'yup , I know this car looks absurd, but it's fun and you can share the joke'.
pheonix478 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
...
Why are performance/sporty cars so difficult to get right as a full package? It is properly frustrating I think.
..
As a general rule because they are now so heavy, cheaper performance cars with passive suspensions 'need' a rock hard ride to maintain any kind of body control on track; the curse of Nurburgring bragging rights. Interestingly, cars like the Taycan are so obscenely overweight, and expensive enough, to necessitate and afford active air suspension and active roll bars which results in a freakishly good ride. The less track focused McLarens are pretty special too. You're right about BMW, the last one I was in was an M2C and it was really, stupidly harsh IMO and the tyre noise was ridiculous. I'm sure it makes sense on those lovely smooth Eifel roads, not so much on the M25. Why are performance/sporty cars so difficult to get right as a full package? It is properly frustrating I think.
..
So they tend to be (very) compromised for the UK hence need modifying for our roads.
Spending £5k or so on your "performance" car to soften the suspension may seem absurd to some but I think done properly it will transform the car and your enjoyment of it.
No car is perfect out of the box as ably demonstrated by this thread but may can be made as close to perfect as you can get them with a bit of effort and money...
Then of course there's no need to sell it as you will look at any new car as being a downgrade.
I've recently bought a car for £6k and will probably spend about £9-10k on it but at the end it will be perfect for my needs for the next 10 years or so and far better than anything I can think of for any cash. Can't wait, it's going to be ace!!
Edited by 911Spanker on Wednesday 26th June 07:36
911Spanker said:
No car is perfect out of the box as ably demonstrated by this thread but may can be made as close to perfect as you can get them with a bit of effort and money...
Then of course there's no need to sell it as you will look at any new car as being a downgrade.
I've recently bought a car for £6k and will probably spend about £9-10k on it but at the end it will be perfect for my needs for the next 10 years or so and far better than anything I can think of for any cash. Can't wait, it's going to be ace!!
You can't leave us in suspense! We need an explanation and ideally some pics.Then of course there's no need to sell it as you will look at any new car as being a downgrade.
I've recently bought a car for £6k and will probably spend about £9-10k on it but at the end it will be perfect for my needs for the next 10 years or so and far better than anything I can think of for any cash. Can't wait, it's going to be ace!!
sassthathoopie said:
911Spanker said:
No car is perfect out of the box as ably demonstrated by this thread but may can be made as close to perfect as you can get them with a bit of effort and money...
Then of course there's no need to sell it as you will look at any new car as being a downgrade.
I've recently bought a car for £6k and will probably spend about £9-10k on it but at the end it will be perfect for my needs for the next 10 years or so and far better than anything I can think of for any cash. Can't wait, it's going to be ace!!
You can't leave us in suspense! We need an explanation and ideally some pics.Then of course there's no need to sell it as you will look at any new car as being a downgrade.
I've recently bought a car for £6k and will probably spend about £9-10k on it but at the end it will be perfect for my needs for the next 10 years or so and far better than anything I can think of for any cash. Can't wait, it's going to be ace!!
).Bought a BMW 130i with B12 suspension on it (they work fantastically on my E36 but are way too stiff on this thing). Plans are:
- Full Birds B1 dynamics package (custom springs, dampers, different ARBs and a Quaife LSD).
- Upgraded brakes
- A trip to BDS for some engine and exhaust work
- Possibly a E92 M3 steering rack
- A couple of proper seats e.g some Pole Positions (should also create more rear legroom)
- Bin the daft M Sport steering wheel and get one from a 116i SE (!)
- Some roof bars and a roof box
There. The perfect practical family wagon.
About £15k ish all in and it will do everything I need and more. It will look like a POS old BMW so no one will care so I can park it anywhere etc.
Those who know, know. Those who don't know think you are too poor to buy a new one..
sassthathoopie said:
911Spanker said:
No car is perfect out of the box as ably demonstrated by this thread but may can be made as close to perfect as you can get them with a bit of effort and money...
Then of course there's no need to sell it as you will look at any new car as being a downgrade.
I've recently bought a car for £6k and will probably spend about £9-10k on it but at the end it will be perfect for my needs for the next 10 years or so and far better than anything I can think of for any cash. Can't wait, it's going to be ace!!
You can't leave us in suspense! We need an explanation and ideally some pics.Then of course there's no need to sell it as you will look at any new car as being a downgrade.
I've recently bought a car for £6k and will probably spend about £9-10k on it but at the end it will be perfect for my needs for the next 10 years or so and far better than anything I can think of for any cash. Can't wait, it's going to be ace!!
sassthathoopie - Great post about your Alpine. I've recently bought an S1 Elise for similar reasons.
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