RE: 2024 Mazda MX-5 RF vs. Toyota GR86
Discussion
CKY said:
"People with adequate appendages care little for these so called lap times" - you do realise it's a Porsche driver you're referring to...? Somewhat ironic when even in their post they refer to their chosen wheels as being able to "kill the GR" 
Read his post again, he said "purely on driver enjoyment they kill the GR". I remember the poster feeding back his experience with the GR86 on another thread a while back. Basically said it was very good for a new car, but felt that he got more enjoyment personally, from the analogue experience provided by older cars available for similar money. I don't think that's a controversial statement. All modern cars struggle in this area due to modern safety aids, larger tyres, lighter electric power steering etc.Going back to Lap times, purely out of curiosity I just checked the FastestLaps website and the GR86 time for the 'ring is listed as 8 mins 27.27. about 7/10 of a second ahead of a Fiesta ST MK8. A facelifted 996 Carrera 2, that is listed at 8 mins 17 sec.... Can only assume the sub 8 min lap was on slicks.... Great car though, the GR86, one of a handful of brand new cars I would actually buy outright if I was looking to commit a big wedge of cash at a car....that, the MX-5 and a bit higher up the price range an Alpine A110. I might also be tempted by a Hyundai i20N if they still made them....(not sure they do)....people should shouldn't get so defensive about their choice of car.... different strokes for different folks and all that.....
Indeed, thanks GA!
Yes, my point of it were not clear enough is that both of those cars would "kill" the GR as a driver's car.
Don't get me wrong, I think the 86 is a great driving car (for something new), however it is hardly amazing when you (perhaps unfairly) compare it to older gear.
My 996.2 and 130 are both tweaked but have a combined value of around that of the GR. Both are more fun individually on road and both are more practical.
You can probably squeeze a couple of kids in the Toyota but let's be honest, it's not that type of car. If it was a bit more practical, I think it would be a heck of a lot more desirable. Of course it may not be quite as good to drive..
I don't think there's much in it for rear room compared to a 911 which is a bit of a killer. And I don't think you can get a roofbox on it either? As anything more than a toy, it's pretty useless.
Yes, my point of it were not clear enough is that both of those cars would "kill" the GR as a driver's car.
Don't get me wrong, I think the 86 is a great driving car (for something new), however it is hardly amazing when you (perhaps unfairly) compare it to older gear.
My 996.2 and 130 are both tweaked but have a combined value of around that of the GR. Both are more fun individually on road and both are more practical.
You can probably squeeze a couple of kids in the Toyota but let's be honest, it's not that type of car. If it was a bit more practical, I think it would be a heck of a lot more desirable. Of course it may not be quite as good to drive..
I don't think there's much in it for rear room compared to a 911 which is a bit of a killer. And I don't think you can get a roofbox on it either? As anything more than a toy, it's pretty useless.
I have a 2019 MX5 ND 2.0 convertible. Prior to that, I have had a GT86 and a Caterham 7, all of which have been mentioned by other posters in this thread.
I've driven the RF but not the GR. I'm not actually an RF fan. I think it looks clumsy, and far to tall, while the cabin feels less roomy compared to the convertible. While I hadn't the roof open while driving, my understanding is it's not as enjoyable as the convertible for open air motoring. I've seen some enthusiast created renderings for an ND MX5 coupe, and they look great. I think Mazda should have gone down that road rather than the RF, and then the choice would have been far more (first world) problematic.
For me, the comparison between the two cars is very accurate. This is a classic example where there is no wrong choice. The differentiation between the two being do you want / need a 2+" or would you rather a convertible? Either choice gives you a very cost effective, reliable, highly rewarding driving experience that's fun yet still fits into the real world.
So you want a front engine, rear wheel drive, manual coupe or convertible? Take these two out of the equation, (even take front engine out of the equation) and you're going to have to dig very deep into your pocket to find something that fits the brief. They are the last of their breed, and we should be thankful that someone out there still keeps making them.
I've driven the RF but not the GR. I'm not actually an RF fan. I think it looks clumsy, and far to tall, while the cabin feels less roomy compared to the convertible. While I hadn't the roof open while driving, my understanding is it's not as enjoyable as the convertible for open air motoring. I've seen some enthusiast created renderings for an ND MX5 coupe, and they look great. I think Mazda should have gone down that road rather than the RF, and then the choice would have been far more (first world) problematic.
For me, the comparison between the two cars is very accurate. This is a classic example where there is no wrong choice. The differentiation between the two being do you want / need a 2+" or would you rather a convertible? Either choice gives you a very cost effective, reliable, highly rewarding driving experience that's fun yet still fits into the real world.
So you want a front engine, rear wheel drive, manual coupe or convertible? Take these two out of the equation, (even take front engine out of the equation) and you're going to have to dig very deep into your pocket to find something that fits the brief. They are the last of their breed, and we should be thankful that someone out there still keeps making them.
Catflap66 said:
I have a 2019 MX5 ND 2.0 convertible. Prior to that, I have had a GT86 and a Caterham 7, all of which have been mentioned by other posters in this thread.
I've driven the RF but not the GR. I'm not actually an RF fan. I think it looks clumsy, and far to tall, while the cabin feels less roomy compared to the convertible. While I hadn't the roof open while driving, my understanding is it's not as enjoyable as the convertible for open air motoring.
As I have said, height seems key and at 5'6", I find the RF is just fine, roof and windows down, where my nigh on 6' son thinks there is too much wind noise. It's a small car.I've driven the RF but not the GR. I'm not actually an RF fan. I think it looks clumsy, and far to tall, while the cabin feels less roomy compared to the convertible. While I hadn't the roof open while driving, my understanding is it's not as enjoyable as the convertible for open air motoring.
I think it looks stunning, more so than the convertible but horses for courses. It's a pretty amazing piece of engineering, to keep it so light. I do understand the coupe argument as it would possibly add a little storage space but we do get days of sunshine in the UK. That said, the Corvette C3 that it draws inspiration from had a coupe and the luggage space was rubbish. Maybe a Jensen Healey style shooting brake?
My choice was made not only on looks but practicality. The RF is far more refined inside, with the roof up and my son's MR2 Mk 3 has a very baggy and shagged out 24 year old convertible roof that needed replacing but he opted to buy a hard top, instead which he prefers, especially in a UK winter. That was key in my choice of an RF which has paint I can polish and which is weatherproof and very easy to keep clean. I can't be arsed looking after a fabric roof.
An Elise or something is pretty useless as anything but a toy but then its sole purpose is as a toy. It's unfair to say the same about a car that can fit a 2 week supermarket shop or 4 wheels with tyres in the boot. It's not like I'd attempt to put my mother in law in the back of a 911 either.
The fact is that a £30k Toyota with a 10 year warranty is a very different undertaking to a £20k, 20 year old 996. They're both awesome but the Toyota is going to be a much more easy going ownership proposition and that just adds to the enjoyment IMO. It also subjectively looks way better
I'm very thankful that such cars still exist, it's a shame that Porsche are moving away from the formula for their atainable model.
The fact is that a £30k Toyota with a 10 year warranty is a very different undertaking to a £20k, 20 year old 996. They're both awesome but the Toyota is going to be a much more easy going ownership proposition and that just adds to the enjoyment IMO. It also subjectively looks way better
I'm very thankful that such cars still exist, it's a shame that Porsche are moving away from the formula for their atainable model.
greenarrow said:
Read his post again, he said "purely on driver enjoyment they kill the GR". I remember the poster feeding back his experience with the GR86 on another thread a while back. Basically said it was very good for a new car, but felt that he got more enjoyment personally, from the analogue experience provided by older cars available for similar money. I don't think that's a controversial statement. All modern cars struggle in this area due to modern safety aids, larger tyres, lighter electric power steering etc.
Going back to Lap times, purely out of curiosity I just checked the FastestLaps website and the GR86 time for the 'ring is listed as 8 mins 27.27. about 7/10 of a second ahead of a Fiesta ST MK8. A facelifted 996 Carrera 2, that is listed at 8 mins 17 sec.... Can only assume the sub 8 min lap was on slicks.... Great car though, the GR86, one of a handful of brand new cars I would actually buy outright if I was looking to commit a big wedge of cash at a car....that, the MX-5 and a bit higher up the price range an Alpine A110. I might also be tempted by a Hyundai i20N if they still made them....(not sure they do)....people should shouldn't get so defensive about their choice of car.... different strokes for different folks and all that.....
https://youtu.be/5m9uw-Sdem4?si=_AVt7K8QIkGiQjY5Going back to Lap times, purely out of curiosity I just checked the FastestLaps website and the GR86 time for the 'ring is listed as 8 mins 27.27. about 7/10 of a second ahead of a Fiesta ST MK8. A facelifted 996 Carrera 2, that is listed at 8 mins 17 sec.... Can only assume the sub 8 min lap was on slicks.... Great car though, the GR86, one of a handful of brand new cars I would actually buy outright if I was looking to commit a big wedge of cash at a car....that, the MX-5 and a bit higher up the price range an Alpine A110. I might also be tempted by a Hyundai i20N if they still made them....(not sure they do)....people should shouldn't get so defensive about their choice of car.... different strokes for different folks and all that.....
Was on Yoko Advan 052 which are road legal track tyres. Regardless of what you think about the car it is might impressive for something with just 240BHP.
As for analogue experience the only thing which isn't analogue compared to an old 996 is the rack which is electric as the vast majority of 996's will be electronic throttle. Even the 130i would have been electric steering unless it is an early one. The GR86 is about as analogue as you can get with RWD sports car in 2024. You can turn off everything and it even has an old fashioned hand brake.
The one thing an old 996 or 130i cannot match is the chassis development and aero development of the past 30 years. The GR86 has genuine aero through the front air dams and front wings. It is also pretty much a flat floor too. Then you add things like aluminium roof, boxer engine, aluminium wings and bonnet that all help bring down the centre of gravity.
Edited by BricktopST205 on Thursday 20th June 12:00
mackie1 said:
An Elise or something is pretty useless as anything but a toy but then its sole purpose is as a toy. It's unfair to say the same about a car that can fit a 2 week supermarket shop or 4 wheels with tyres in the boot. It's not like I'd attempt to put my mother in law in the back of a 911 either.
The fact is that a £30k Toyota with a 10 year warranty is a very different undertaking to a £20k, 20 year old 996. They're both awesome but the Toyota is going to be a much more easy going ownership proposition and that just adds to the enjoyment IMO. It also subjectively looks way better
I'm very thankful that such cars still exist, it's a shame that Porsche are moving away from the formula for their atainable model.
It's fine if you are a single guy or couple and must have a new car that's decent to drive and cheap to run.The fact is that a £30k Toyota with a 10 year warranty is a very different undertaking to a £20k, 20 year old 996. They're both awesome but the Toyota is going to be a much more easy going ownership proposition and that just adds to the enjoyment IMO. It also subjectively looks way better
I'm very thankful that such cars still exist, it's a shame that Porsche are moving away from the formula for their atainable model.
Of course you can't carry any mates/family very far.
It is not focused enough for me to be a weekend thrasher and not practical enough to be a do-it-all sole car so unfortunately I find it falling between 2 stools.
Of course, others may have different use cases but these types of car have never sold particularly well.
911Spanker said:
mackie1 said:
An Elise or something is pretty useless as anything but a toy but then its sole purpose is as a toy. It's unfair to say the same about a car that can fit a 2 week supermarket shop or 4 wheels with tyres in the boot. It's not like I'd attempt to put my mother in law in the back of a 911 either.
The fact is that a £30k Toyota with a 10 year warranty is a very different undertaking to a £20k, 20 year old 996. They're both awesome but the Toyota is going to be a much more easy going ownership proposition and that just adds to the enjoyment IMO. It also subjectively looks way better
I'm very thankful that such cars still exist, it's a shame that Porsche are moving away from the formula for their atainable model.
It's fine if you are a single guy or couple and must have a new car that's decent to drive and cheap to run.The fact is that a £30k Toyota with a 10 year warranty is a very different undertaking to a £20k, 20 year old 996. They're both awesome but the Toyota is going to be a much more easy going ownership proposition and that just adds to the enjoyment IMO. It also subjectively looks way better
I'm very thankful that such cars still exist, it's a shame that Porsche are moving away from the formula for their atainable model.
Of course you can't carry any mates/family very far.
It is not focused enough for me to be a weekend thrasher and not practical enough to be a do-it-all sole car so unfortunately I find it falling between 2 stools.
Of course, others may have different use cases but these types of car have never sold particularly well.
I'm glad both cars are being made though for sure, plus they both have a lot of fans too.
Catflap66 said:
So you want a front engine, rear wheel drive, manual coupe or convertible? Take these two out of the equation, (even take front engine out of the equation) and you're going to have to dig very deep into your pocket to find something that fits the brief. They are the last of their breed, and we should be thankful that someone out there still keeps making them.
There are plenty of options with those ingredients if you don't mind going used though, but as you say, it is great that cars like this are still being made for sure. GTRene said:
hm, I like the looks of that GR86 and the 2.4 engine power (not driven any, just the idea)
but the weight differences between those 2?
Is the Toyota that much havier? and is that also incl the 75kg driver? as by the MX5? but stil big weight difference I think.
SPECIFICATION | 2023 TOYOTA GR86
Weight: 1,275kg-1,314kg
SPECIFICATION | 2024 MAZDA MX-5 2.0 EXCLUSIVE LINE RF
Weight: 1,120kg (including 75kg driver)
Yes, the GR86 is around 1276 kg with all fluids, ready to drive, excluding driver. The MX-5 is around 1060 kg by the same standard. A difference of around 200-220 kg apples-to-apples.but the weight differences between those 2?
Is the Toyota that much havier? and is that also incl the 75kg driver? as by the MX5? but stil big weight difference I think.
SPECIFICATION | 2023 TOYOTA GR86
Weight: 1,275kg-1,314kg
SPECIFICATION | 2024 MAZDA MX-5 2.0 EXCLUSIVE LINE RF
Weight: 1,120kg (including 75kg driver)
KobayashiMaru86 said:
Leftfootwonder said:
KobayashiMaru86 said:
I even bought the spring because of everyone going on about it. I've never had an issue with the clutch so never fitted it.
I'm a bit puzzled by the criticisms of the clutch and throttle pedals. I've had absolutely no issues with them. Clutch is very light I suppose, but that's modern cars for you. Put Senna spec socks and loafers on your Christmas list for the required deft touch.
I bought a 1.5 nd1 as a stop gap car and couldn’t believe how much I loved it. Not quick, but so light and direct. Very easy on fuel/brakes/tyres too. It did need eibach springs/aligned to sort out the handling.
Ended up getting a nd2 2.0. The extra 50 bhp really made the car. Just superb. 2020 seems to be the sweet spot, mine was sport tech so had apple car play, lsd, heated leather etc etc. Absolutely loved it but eventually it had to go because we’ve a wee one and every time we had to go anywhere together we could never take it.
After many test drives ended up with a facelift fk8 type r. Dynamically it’s absolutely superb. The handling/power is fantastic but now the summer is here I do miss the drop top.
Ended up getting a nd2 2.0. The extra 50 bhp really made the car. Just superb. 2020 seems to be the sweet spot, mine was sport tech so had apple car play, lsd, heated leather etc etc. Absolutely loved it but eventually it had to go because we’ve a wee one and every time we had to go anywhere together we could never take it.
After many test drives ended up with a facelift fk8 type r. Dynamically it’s absolutely superb. The handling/power is fantastic but now the summer is here I do miss the drop top.
cerb4.5lee said:
I think both the GR86 and the GR Yaris fall into that trap. Both are too compromised as do it all daily drivers, and neither of them are special enough as weekend cars either(for me anyway).
I'm glad both cars are being made though for sure, plus they both have a lot of fans too.
While it obviously depends on your use case - but I can't see why a GR86 couldn't be a daily for a lot of people. It's as practical all round as a Cayman or 911. The MX5 less so, as its luggage and passenger space is considerably more compromised. I'm glad both cars are being made though for sure, plus they both have a lot of fans too.
bcr5784 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I think both the GR86 and the GR Yaris fall into that trap. Both are too compromised as do it all daily drivers, and neither of them are special enough as weekend cars either(for me anyway).
I'm glad both cars are being made though for sure, plus they both have a lot of fans too.
While it obviously depends on your use case - but I can't see why a GR86 couldn't be a daily for a lot of people. It's as practical all round as a Cayman or 911. The MX5 less so, as its luggage and passenger space is considerably more compromised. I'm glad both cars are being made though for sure, plus they both have a lot of fans too.
But if you have a family, a GR is a waste of time, putting it into the very occasional family car/fun car which is a hard place given what else is available.
911Spanker said:
For the single man or woman, absolutely.
But if you have a family, a GR is a waste of time, putting it into the very occasional family car/fun car which is a hard place given what else is available.
Have to disagree with this. You can fit young kids in the back and a large pram in the boot. It's something I do with mine regularly. Including a full size rear facing child seat. But if you have a family, a GR is a waste of time, putting it into the very occasional family car/fun car which is a hard place given what else is available.
As a second car for an enthusiast with a young family it's a great choice.
FamousPheasant said:
911Spanker said:
For the single man or woman, absolutely.
But if you have a family, a GR is a waste of time, putting it into the very occasional family car/fun car which is a hard place given what else is available.
Have to disagree with this. You can fit young kids in the back and a large pram in the boot. It's something I do with mine regularly. Including a full size rear facing child seat. But if you have a family, a GR is a waste of time, putting it into the very occasional family car/fun car which is a hard place given what else is available.
As a second car for an enthusiast with a young family it's a great choice.
Was happy paying £30k for a fairly rare well reviewed car. It will be in my ownership for a number of years.
If I go to any car shows for the day my 15 year old sits in he front with the seat forward a d te missus sits in the back. Works well for us.
Edited by Composite Guru on Saturday 22 June 23:18
flukey5 said:
As the owner of both I disagree a bit with this review.
The GR86 is definitely a more capable and more serious sports car but for me it seriously loses to the Mazda on the feel department, and where the mazda feels analogue the 86 just doesn't - which makes the mazda my favourite when I don't need more practicality and I do want a more engaging and intuitive driving experience.
The GR86 suffers from:
- a clutch with the most vague bite point I've ever driven
- a throttle tune that is 100% WOT by about 50% travel (over sensitive for no reason)
- poorly spaced pedals for heel toe
- piped in synthetic sound through a speaker
- worse damping and the worst sound system I've ever had in a new car
I do agree with the review in that the steering is better while the gear shift is slightly worse but still top tier.
It's still a brilliant car but the 86 gets so many driver focused things wrong for me which is unforgivable in the nature of the car. Fortunately the aftermarket provides a lot of solutions for the issues I have (and many others)!
I can't agree with the throttle tuning or heel & toe points sorry. Yes it's not an easy car to just jump in and just drive perfectly straight away, but theirin lies the rewarding responsiveness when you get in tune with the car with good footwear.The GR86 is definitely a more capable and more serious sports car but for me it seriously loses to the Mazda on the feel department, and where the mazda feels analogue the 86 just doesn't - which makes the mazda my favourite when I don't need more practicality and I do want a more engaging and intuitive driving experience.
The GR86 suffers from:
- a clutch with the most vague bite point I've ever driven
- a throttle tune that is 100% WOT by about 50% travel (over sensitive for no reason)
- poorly spaced pedals for heel toe
- piped in synthetic sound through a speaker
- worse damping and the worst sound system I've ever had in a new car
I do agree with the review in that the steering is better while the gear shift is slightly worse but still top tier.
It's still a brilliant car but the 86 gets so many driver focused things wrong for me which is unforgivable in the nature of the car. Fortunately the aftermarket provides a lot of solutions for the issues I have (and many others)!
Have you played around with the sound system settings? There's some enhancement options that are off by default (God only knows why) that make a hell of a difference. So that combined with adjusting the treble, mid & bass actually make it not too bad for a low cost setup.
I also own both and to me the GR is definitely the ultimate for enthusiastic driving. It's incredible in fact but in a way that's its downside as the MX-5 is a thing of joy more of the time on our less than idyllic roads.
Both these cars need some subtle tweaks for it to be the ultimate showdown. The MX-5 gets the better steering with the flyin' miata geo (namely the maxed out castor) & the GR86 needs the nintendo fake sound disabling as job 1.
I can't actually decide which I prefer more which is why I've somehow ended up with both. I do think the Mazda will be the one to see out my driving days when I'm old so I think the ultimate answer to this dilmna is GR86 followed by MX-5 down the line.
Edited by VeeFource on Tuesday 2nd July 08:23
FamousPheasant said:
911Spanker said:
For the single man or woman, absolutely.
But if you have a family, a GR is a waste of time, putting it into the very occasional family car/fun car which is a hard place given what else is available.
Have to disagree with this. You can fit young kids in the back and a large pram in the boot. It's something I do with mine regularly. Including a full size rear facing child seat. But if you have a family, a GR is a waste of time, putting it into the very occasional family car/fun car which is a hard place given what else is available.
As a second car for an enthusiast with a young family it's a great choice.
They were far less comfortable than in my 996.
Also the boot isn't great. Bigger than the 911 but you can't get roof bars or a roofbox on the 86 so even things like a kids bike won't fit.
If you can make it work that's great but it wasn't for us.
My solution of buying a driver focused extra car has been a stroke of genius...
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