What am I getting wrong about sports cars?
Discussion
sassthathoopie said:
Another classic example being my early NSX: We've visited Snowdonia during a dry spell in January, and the Pyrenees last summer because it is a great GT that feels wonderful at 5/10ths, but also feels amazing at whatever speed you feel comfortable to push it. [wheels & exhaust the only mods
Oohhh! Forgot you have an NSX, me too! Is your the yellow one with Zanardi wheels?trevalvole said:
BricktopST205 said:
trevalvole said:
Both the GR and the ND have electric power steering, whereas the NB will have had hydraulic. I know it doesn't matter to most people, but I've never felt connected to, or fully confident in, a car with electric power steering and it looks as though your experience might be similar.
My GR86 has electric power steering and my 1995 Toyota Celica GT-Four with hydraulic steering feels just as good. One thing I can agree on is a fly by wire throttle will never be as good as cable for feel but then on the flip side fly by wire has its benefits because it is programmable.
Knocking EPAS may be cool but there's good reason to do so. I've yet to drive a car with it that had steering I really liked I grew up with no PAS at all , and then hydraulic pas which removed a lot of feel and then EPAS removed it all . I dare say some are better than others but the sundry Fords, Toyotas , VAG and Peugeots I've driven all have very dull , passive steering with little or zero feedback. Subjectively Fords feel the bets of a bad bunch.
I have spoken to many younger drivers who obviously can't miss what they never had and are happy to extol the virtues of the steering in cars like my MX5 ND . I like the car but God above, compared to bog standard cars like old MGs , let alone pre PAS 911s, older V8 Ferraris and Sevens , the steering is mute.
I have spoken to many younger drivers who obviously can't miss what they never had and are happy to extol the virtues of the steering in cars like my MX5 ND . I like the car but God above, compared to bog standard cars like old MGs , let alone pre PAS 911s, older V8 Ferraris and Sevens , the steering is mute.
Matt_T said:
sassthathoopie said:
Another classic example being my early NSX: We've visited Snowdonia during a dry spell in January, and the Pyrenees last summer because it is a great GT that feels wonderful at 5/10ths, but also feels amazing at whatever speed you feel comfortable to push it. [wheels & exhaust the only mods
Oohhh! Forgot you have an NSX, me too! Is your the yellow one with Zanardi wheels?Pic taken on the Furka Pass in November; see above
Cars do vary so much I think, and it isn't easy to get everything in just one package I reckon. For example I love my 370Z Roadster for the noise, and I love the F82 M4 for the performance, and love my Caterham for its low weight and the lack of driving aids.
All 3 of them have a limited slip diff too, and that is an important ingredient for me personally in a RWD sporty car.
The hydraulic steering is much better in the 370Z in comparison to the electric steering in the M4 as well for example, and from my experience it is impossible to find a perfect car, because there just isn't such a thing for me. They all are compromised in one way or another.
All 3 of them have a limited slip diff too, and that is an important ingredient for me personally in a RWD sporty car.
The hydraulic steering is much better in the 370Z in comparison to the electric steering in the M4 as well for example, and from my experience it is impossible to find a perfect car, because there just isn't such a thing for me. They all are compromised in one way or another.
Just today driven through the start of the Swiss Alps to St Moritz in the Evora (2021 GT410) and I'm reminded why I bought it.
Wonderful flat cornering, a surefootedness that comes with being wide and low, firm, hydraulic steering, clutch feel, throttle feel and one of the best noises in the business, yet all day comfortable seats.
Looking forward to driving from Levigno to Thun via five alpine passes in a couple of days.
Good modern cars are still out there, you just need to decide what you want most from a car.
Test drove the latest 911 and was sorely disappointed for most of the reasons OP gives.
Wonderful flat cornering, a surefootedness that comes with being wide and low, firm, hydraulic steering, clutch feel, throttle feel and one of the best noises in the business, yet all day comfortable seats.
Looking forward to driving from Levigno to Thun via five alpine passes in a couple of days.
Good modern cars are still out there, you just need to decide what you want most from a car.
Test drove the latest 911 and was sorely disappointed for most of the reasons OP gives.
Baldchap said:
Just today driven through the start of the Swiss Alps to St Moritz in the Evora (2021 GT410) and I'm reminded why I bought it.
Wonderful flat cornering, a surefootedness that comes with being wide and low, firm, hydraulic steering, clutch feel, throttle feel and one of the best noises in the business, yet all day comfortable seats.
Looking forward to driving from Levigno to Thun via five alpine passes in a couple of days.
That sounds like a great adventure. Wonderful flat cornering, a surefootedness that comes with being wide and low, firm, hydraulic steering, clutch feel, throttle feel and one of the best noises in the business, yet all day comfortable seats.
Looking forward to driving from Levigno to Thun via five alpine passes in a couple of days.
Enjoy it.
sassthathoopie said:
Matt_T said:
sassthathoopie said:
Another classic example being my early NSX: We've visited Snowdonia during a dry spell in January, and the Pyrenees last summer because it is a great GT that feels wonderful at 5/10ths, but also feels amazing at whatever speed you feel comfortable to push it. [wheels & exhaust the only mods
Oohhh! Forgot you have an NSX, me too! Is your the yellow one with Zanardi wheels?Pic taken on the Furka Pass in November; see above
cerb4.5lee said:
Cars do vary so much I think, and it isn't easy to get everything in just one package I reckon. For example I love my 370Z Roadster for the noise, and I love the F82 M4 for the performance, and love my Caterham for its low weight and the lack of driving aids.
All 3 of them have a limited slip diff too, and that is an important ingredient for me personally in a RWD sporty car.
The hydraulic steering is much better in the 370Z in comparison to the electric steering in the M4 as well for example, and from my experience it is impossible to find a perfect car, because there just isn't such a thing for me. They all are compromised in one way or another.
That's the issue - it depends what compromise you - in this case the OP - are willing to make. All 3 of them have a limited slip diff too, and that is an important ingredient for me personally in a RWD sporty car.
The hydraulic steering is much better in the 370Z in comparison to the electric steering in the M4 as well for example, and from my experience it is impossible to find a perfect car, because there just isn't such a thing for me. They all are compromised in one way or another.
I did a hoon around the Borders are in March based out of Newcastle and the 300 mile trip up in my Z4M was pretty tiring. It would have been much more relaxing in my BMW 330i!
But driving once I got there the Z4M came into its' own which made it all worthwhile.
Maybe I just need to move out of the South East?
otolith said:
Hoofy said:
Oh - I understand the 997s are still supposed to be pretty raw (compared to everyday cars).
Hmm. It's all relative I suppose, I was using my Elise as a daily driver at the time which distorts perspective a bit, but I'd have said the 350Z we also had was probably worse than the Porsche in terms of daily driver civility. Fair enough.
Interesting to note re the 350Z. Won't be getting one of those, then!
Mr Tidy said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Cars do vary so much I think, and it isn't easy to get everything in just one package I reckon. For example I love my 370Z Roadster for the noise, and I love the F82 M4 for the performance, and love my Caterham for its low weight and the lack of driving aids.
All 3 of them have a limited slip diff too, and that is an important ingredient for me personally in a RWD sporty car.
The hydraulic steering is much better in the 370Z in comparison to the electric steering in the M4 as well for example, and from my experience it is impossible to find a perfect car, because there just isn't such a thing for me. They all are compromised in one way or another.
That's the issue - it depends what compromise you - in this case the OP - are willing to make. All 3 of them have a limited slip diff too, and that is an important ingredient for me personally in a RWD sporty car.
The hydraulic steering is much better in the 370Z in comparison to the electric steering in the M4 as well for example, and from my experience it is impossible to find a perfect car, because there just isn't such a thing for me. They all are compromised in one way or another.
I did a hoon around the Borders are in March based out of Newcastle and the 300 mile trip up in my Z4M was pretty tiring. It would have been much more relaxing in my BMW 330i!
But driving once I got there the Z4M came into its' own which made it all worthwhile.
Maybe I just need to move out of the South East?
I do love the roads that surround us currently though, and they are brilliant for having fun on(really quiet/hardly any traffic at all). The main roads are a pain(as they are everywhere mostly I think), but the B roads are heavenly around us though for sure.
Mr Tidy said:
That's the issue - it depends what compromise you - in this case the OP - are willing to make.
I did a hoon around the Borders are in March based out of Newcastle and the 300 mile trip up in my Z4M was pretty tiring. It would have been much more relaxing in my BMW 330i!
But driving once I got there the Z4M came into its' own which made it all worthwhile.
And to further illustrate how individual preferences can vary, my Z4M is the limo in my fleet I did a hoon around the Borders are in March based out of Newcastle and the 300 mile trip up in my Z4M was pretty tiring. It would have been much more relaxing in my BMW 330i!
But driving once I got there the Z4M came into its' own which made it all worthwhile.
It would be my first choice for the schlep up to Newcastle as it's the best cruiser, but the last choice for hooning around the Borders as it's the least sharp and focused (and the suspension wouldn't cope with the undulating tarmac in that part of the world).
plenty said:
And to further illustrate how individual preferences can vary, my Z4M is the limo in my fleet
Do you only have skateboards in the rest of your fleet then?! 
My Z4M was the worst car that I've ever owned ride/suspension wise in complete honesty in fairness. I was a lot younger than I am now when I had it as well, so if I had it now...I'd be moaning even more about the ride I reckon for sure!
From my experience with cars, stay well away from BMW if you want comfort and a nice ride. My F82 M4 is a great car in many ways for me, but comfortable it is definitely not.
Why are performance/sporty cars so difficult to get right as a full package? It is properly frustrating I think.
I guess that most of us are too picky, and too critical perhaps though? I blame the passion that a lot of us have for cars though I reckon.
Why are performance/sporty cars so difficult to get right as a full package? It is properly frustrating I think.
I guess that most of us are too picky, and too critical perhaps though? I blame the passion that a lot of us have for cars though I reckon.
cerb4.5lee said:
From my experience with cars, stay well away from BMW if you want comfort and a nice ride. My F82 M4 is a great car in many ways for me, but comfortable it is definitely not.
Why are performance/sporty cars so difficult to get right as a full package? It is properly frustrating I think.
I guess that most of us are too picky, and too critical perhaps though? I blame the passion that a lot of us have for cars though I reckon.
Modify it. I will likely be taking my old 130i to Birds to sort it out..Why are performance/sporty cars so difficult to get right as a full package? It is properly frustrating I think.
I guess that most of us are too picky, and too critical perhaps though? I blame the passion that a lot of us have for cars though I reckon.
All my cars have been tweaked and I love them all - from a pure driving point of view I have what I feel is the best £80k ish garage I could get for pure enjoyment on UK roads.
cerb4.5lee said:
From my experience with cars, stay well away from BMW if you want comfort and a nice ride. My F82 M4 is a great car in many ways for me, but comfortable it is definitely not.
Why are performance/sporty cars so difficult to get right as a full package? It is properly frustrating think.
Alpina make comfortable BMWs that are spectacularly capable...Why are performance/sporty cars so difficult to get right as a full package? It is properly frustrating think.
In terms of why it's so hard to find the full package, the answer is simple: An involved, tactile drive is a tiring long distance cruiser. The feedback and environment that makes the interactions exciting is exactly the stuff that tires you out over long distances. Features like closing exhaust valves make a bigger difference than you'd think but ultimately the cars perfect for each task are two different cars.
A lot of people think old cars are best simply because the NVH was intrusive, but I don't fall for that. I love good modern powerplants and don't rate a lot of older stuff. I've done the journey I'm currently on in an older NA car and it was nowhere near as good as the supercharged lump in the Evora.
Like I said above, just pick the right car for the journey (or the destination).
911Spanker said:
cerb4.5lee said:
From my experience with cars, stay well away from BMW if you want comfort and a nice ride. My F82 M4 is a great car in many ways for me, but comfortable it is definitely not.
Why are performance/sporty cars so difficult to get right as a full package? It is properly frustrating I think.
I guess that most of us are too picky, and too critical perhaps though? I blame the passion that a lot of us have for cars though I reckon.
Modify it. I will likely be taking my old 130i to Birds to sort it out..Why are performance/sporty cars so difficult to get right as a full package? It is properly frustrating I think.
I guess that most of us are too picky, and too critical perhaps though? I blame the passion that a lot of us have for cars though I reckon.
All my cars have been tweaked and I love them all - from a pure driving point of view I have what I feel is the best £80k ish garage I could get for pure enjoyment on UK roads.
Baldchap said:
Alpina make comfortable BMWs that are spectacularly capable...
In terms of why it's so hard to find the full package, the answer is simple: An involved, tactile drive is a tiring long distance cruiser. The feedback and environment that makes the interactions exciting is exactly the stuff that tires you out over long distances. Features like closing exhaust valves make a bigger difference than you'd think but ultimately the cars perfect for each task are two different cars.
A lot of people think old cars are best simply because the NVH was intrusive, but I don't fall for that. I love good modern powerplants and don't rate a lot of older stuff. I've done the journey I'm currently on in an older NA car and it was nowhere near as good as the supercharged lump in the Evora.
Like I said above, just pick the right car for the journey (or the destination).
Completely true. In terms of why it's so hard to find the full package, the answer is simple: An involved, tactile drive is a tiring long distance cruiser. The feedback and environment that makes the interactions exciting is exactly the stuff that tires you out over long distances. Features like closing exhaust valves make a bigger difference than you'd think but ultimately the cars perfect for each task are two different cars.
A lot of people think old cars are best simply because the NVH was intrusive, but I don't fall for that. I love good modern powerplants and don't rate a lot of older stuff. I've done the journey I'm currently on in an older NA car and it was nowhere near as good as the supercharged lump in the Evora.
Like I said above, just pick the right car for the journey (or the destination).
Regarding the exhaust on the M4, my missus loves it because it is quiet and unintrusive. Whereas I'd personally prefer more noise from it though. However, it would then probably get on my nerves though on the longer journeys as you say.
Other than the ride, I do think that the M4 is a brilliant performance daily driver though, and I've been really happy with it over the 27k miles I've done in it up to yet. But everytime I get behind the wheel of the GLE400d, I always say to my missus how lovely and comfortable/relaxing it is to sit in and drive in comparison though.
It is all about choosing the right tool for the job for sure. Talking of tools for the job, I reckon that the Caterham will be making a rare guest appearance today in this weather.
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