What am I getting wrong about sports cars?

[Matt_T]

My most enlightening experience with cars was when I decided I could afford the insurance on something fast and set my heart on a Subaru Imprezza, I went and test drove 2 Imprezzas multuple times and just came away cold - what I wanted was driver engagement and feeling and the Imprezzas feld heavy and cumbersome. I then drove an FN2 & EP3 Civic Type R and loved them! They felt light and agile.

This is my NA MX5 (with EV1 Type-S in the background), love the feeling of being able to just drop the roof, jump in it and be on the road in 10 seconds.

[otolith]

plenty said:

You've just discovered that older cars drive better.

Probably more accurate to say "differently" - they haven't been deliberately made worse, they've just diverged from what are now the niche tastes of those of us who liked it the way it was. Undoubtedly some of the changes made for the benefit of space, comfort, and efficiency have directly made the driving experience worse, but I think a lot of what has been lost has been lost because the mainstream never wanted it. From their point of view, they drive better if you are insulated from the process, which is the opposite of what some of us want. I'm sure most people would not enjoy the rawness (read noise, vibration, unfiltered, unassisted steering) of my Elise, but that's what I love about it. Conversely, when I drove the 996 997 (edited for typo), I was really impressed by how it was as easy and vice-free to drive normally as a Golf and as comfortable, well equipped, and refined as a nice 3 series - really impressed by the engineering, but really didn't desire one because I didn't want a car which is so competent at pretending to be ordinary most of the time. The competence that you used to have to buy something upmarket to get has gradually become an expectation, even in the affordable sports car market.

Edited by otolith on Monday 24th June 12:32

[GeniusOfLove]

"Raw" is just "crap" to 99.9% of people, and sadly most "sports cars" are bought new to peacock and mince around in rather than actually drive so the more like a 3 series they drive the better for the actual customers who buy the cars.

The push for more and more and more and more power has also inevitably lead to desensitized and nannying cars - your average new 911 buyer would be dead in a ditch within a week if they drove an old school RWD 500bhp+ car in the inept and ham fisted fashion most people drive their toys.

Also, driving in a city is so crap no car can make it better, if anything the fact the ND is like a little hatch in the city but comes alive on real roads is kind of the point; I thought it was a brilliant city car, especially as I drove all over abandoned central London in it when everyone was cowering indoors for 2 years

[plenty]

otolith said:

plenty said:

You've just discovered that older cars drive better.

Probably more accurate to say "differently"

Well, of course.

But included in a pithy reply to the OP, you immediately understood what 'better' meant. Whereas 'differently' would have required an additional paragraph to explain

[sassthathoopie]

Matt_T said:

My most enlightening experience with cars was when I decided I could afford the insurance on something fast and set my heart on a Subaru Imprezza, I went and test drove 2 Imprezzas multuple times and just came away cold - what I wanted was driver engagement and feeling and the Imprezzas feld heavy and cumbersome. I then drove an FN2 & EP3 Civic Type R and loved them! They felt light and agile.

This is my NA MX5 (with EV1 Type-S in the background), love the feeling of being able to just drop the roof, jump in it and be on the road in 10 seconds.

I spent a day on my stag do in a rented Caterham, in summer in the Forest of Dean. Great fun! But even in an ideal use case on the drive home I was comparing it with my lightly uprated 1.6 mk1 MX5 and deciding the Mazda was a keeper. [BC Racing coilovers, magnesium 14" wheels with road focused 185/70 tyres, air filter for induction noise, all the good value little chassis stiffening struts.]

As discussed earlier it is great having a car that is amazing on the right road. But if you don't have that right road immediately on your doorstep you have to drive there; which means compliant suspension, a little bit of elbow room and some luggage space are handy. Without those things, in practice you are rarely going to want to go and visit those roads.

Another classic example being my early NSX: We've visited Snowdonia during a dry spell in January, and the Pyrenees last summer because it is a great GT that feels wonderful at 5/10ths, but also feels amazing at whatever speed you feel comfortable to push it. [wheels & exhaust the only mods]

The MX5 has been to northern Scotland & the Col du Turini, but is also well suited to lumpy Essex/Suffolk back lanes.

Edited by sassthathoopie on Monday 24th June 11:53

[Hoofy]

Interesting topic continuing.

otolith said:

Conversely, when I drove the 996, I was really impressed by how it was as easy and vice-free to drive normally as a Golf and as comfortable, well equipped, and refined as a nice 3 series - really impressed by the engineering, but really didn't desire one because I didn't want a car which is so competent at pretending to be ordinary most of the time.

Y'see, I find my 996 a tiresome, PITA raw experience that 75% of the time I cba with. I'd rather take the Golf-in-drag TT.

I can't remember where I posted but I think it's down to the individual's requirements and lifestyle.

Or my 996's suspension and steering needs fixing.

[braddo]

turboLP said:

...I grew up in a European city where I didn't need a car ...

... I eventually started my journey by getting an old NB Miata ...

OP, where are you based? North America?

A basic Elise is probably the perfect answer but they may be very rare/expensive where you are. A Mk3 Toyota MR2 as mentioned is a cheap alternative. Or a NC MX5/Miata with folding hardtop, or perhaps an early Porsche Boxster.

[otolith]

Hoofy said:

Interesting topic continuing.

otolith said:

Conversely, when I drove the 996, I was really impressed by how it was as easy and vice-free to drive normally as a Golf and as comfortable, well equipped, and refined as a nice 3 series - really impressed by the engineering, but really didn't desire one because I didn't want a car which is so competent at pretending to be ordinary most of the time.

Y'see, I find my 996 a tiresome, PITA raw experience that 75% of the time I cba with. I'd rather take the Golf-in-drag TT.

I can't remember where I posted but I think it's down to the individual's requirements and lifestyle.

Or my 996's suspension and steering needs fixing.

This was a brand new one - my mate had just bought one and had a couple of tickets for their driver training at Silverstone. We went there in his car and drove their cars. From the passenger seat I thought that his was pretty civilised apart from a slightly hard ride.

Although, probably more relevant, is that I fat-fingered the model number, it was a 997!

[evil.edna]

sassthathoopie said:

Matt_T said:

My most enlightening experience with cars was when I decided I could afford the insurance on something fast and set my heart on a Subaru Imprezza, I went and test drove 2 Imprezzas multuple times and just came away cold - what I wanted was driver engagement and feeling and the Imprezzas feld heavy and cumbersome. I then drove an FN2 & EP3 Civic Type R and loved them! They felt light and agile.

This is my NA MX5 (with EV1 Type-S in the background), love the feeling of being able to just drop the roof, jump in it and be on the road in 10 seconds.

I spent a day on my stag do in a rented Caterham, in summer in the Forest of Dean. Great fun! But even in an ideal use case on the drive home I was comparing it with my lightly uprated 1.6 mk1 MX5 and deciding the Mazda was a keeper. [BC Racing coilovers, magnesium 14" wheels with road focused 185/70 tyres, air filter for induction noise, all the good value little chassis stiffening struts.]

As discussed earlier it is great having a car that is amazing on the right road. But if you don't have that right road immediately on your doorstep you have to drive there; which means compliant suspension, a little bit of elbow room and some luggage space are handy. Without those things, in practice you are rarely going to want to go and visit those roads.

Another classic example being my early NSX: We've visited Snowdonia during a dry spell in January, and the Pyrenees last summer because it is a great GT that feels wonderful at 5/10ths, but also feels amazing at whatever speed you feel comfortable to push it. [wheels & exhaust the only mods]

The MX5 has been to northern Scotland & the Col du Turini, but is also well suited to lumpy Essex/Suffolk back lanes.

Edited by sassthathoopie on Monday 24th June 11:53

What the OP needs is a thoughtfully modified MX-5. Although more power is always welcomed, decent chassis mods are more important than engine mods, IMHO.

Had a standard NB years ago and loved it. My current NC has had a little bit of money spent on "upgrades" - chassis, brakes and exhaust. The chassis mods just turn a nice "drivers" car, into an absolutely delightful road car, which doesn't feel out of place during a trackday.

Even in unmodified condition, it's hydraulic PAS is "other-worldly", to beat its feedback and response you would have to go down the root of an unassisted rack like an Elise, CaterField....etc.

[GeniusOfLove]

A friend has the worlds rattiest NC with a set of Meister R coilovers and thicker ARBs and it's leagues and leagues better to drive than my ND2 on the mazda lowering springs, the ARBs in particular give much much more confidence in long fast sweeping bends. It's brilliant on track too.

If I had another one I'd have those mods fitted to it before I even picked it up, the lowering springs alone improved it enormously but it really needed more roll stiffness to be perfect.

[Oilchange]

plenty said:

otolith said:

plenty said:

You've just discovered that older cars drive better.

Probably more accurate to say "differently"

Well, of course.

But included in a pithy reply to the OP, you immediately understood what 'better' meant. Whereas 'differently' would have required an additional paragraph to explain

Differently yes, I'd agree too but also better too. Modern stuff is ok but a lot of extra weight and electric steering is pants, largely. Lotus are still using hyd for the Emira which is a relief.

Get in a Lotus Elise/Caterham/MX5 to see what a sportscar should feel like, something manual with rear wheel drive or possibly a hot Renault or ST Ford. Nothing like it.

[Exasperated]

Chubbyross said:

Reasonably warm, yes. But too warm and you’ll end up sitting in a puddle of your own sweat! There’s an optimum temperature for Sevens. Deviate from that and it can be unpleasant. I drove one through the heatwave of last summer, often sat in London traffic jams coming back into London after an early morning blast. It was far from pleasant!

I was only about 17 miles into Seven ownership when I realised that specifying the heater option was equally pointless and ridiculous.

[ATG]

sassthathoopie said:

I spent a day on my stag do in a rented Caterham, in summer in the Forest of Dean.

Deliverance

[Exasperated]

911Spanker said:

Totally with you but why drive undressed? Is this to save the maximum weight?!

I like the wind in my hair. Just not the hair on my head.

[BricktopST205]

trevalvole said:

Both the GR and the ND have electric power steering, whereas the NB will have had hydraulic. I know it doesn't matter to most people, but I've never felt connected to, or fully confident in, a car with electric power steering and it looks as though your experience might be similar.

My GR86 has electric power steering and my 1995 Toyota Celica GT-Four with hydraulic steering feels just as good. Obvious the Celica is a lot more heavier with the steering at slower speeds whereas the GR86 is extremely light but on the go they are basically the same.

I think what the OP is more saying is that he lives in a congested area of the country and cannot stretch the legs of a sports car and it feels too mundane at slow speed

Even a GR86 by the time you have revved out 3rd gear you are doing over 80mph. Cars are basically too fast to be enjoyed on a normal road without getting into stupid speeds.

One thing that is rubbish about all new cars is exhaust note. The GR86 with its fake engine sounds isn't as good as having a proper cat back on it.

I think what the OP needs in his sports car is something a little slower. Like a Honda Beat or Cappuccino which can be ragged out at slow speeds and still feel special.

[braddo]

turboLP said:

...
Even journalists are saying that many cars have become less engaging to drive at lower speeds - and yet they still praise the ND and GR86, so that means that either engagement is not a function of a sports car, or I completely misunderstand engagement. So maybe I'm focusing on the WRONG aspect of driving a sports car?
...

Remember that journalists are nearly always writing about new cars and they can't be harking back to the past constantly when describing how cars feel. So the ND and GR86 are engaging compared to other new cars. But not older cars...

Here are some key elements that made your NB Miata feelsome and which have changed considerably in the past 20 years.

Steering - good hydraulic power steering. Virtually every car from the past decade has electric power steering now, which has no real feel; anything which resembles feel is artificially created.

Throttle - connected via a metal cable to the throttle body on the engine - most cars of the past 15-20 years have electronic throttles where the ECU is programmed to decide what to do when you press the throttle pedal. This can lead to delays depending on the programming. Whereas for your NB the pedal is literally connected to the throttle.

Brake pedal - hydraulic ('servo') assistance has increased greatly in the past 20 years so brakes don't feel as natural as they did with less servo assistance.

Clutch pedal - greater pedal springing (to the make the pedal lighter) and clutch delay valves can make the pedal feel like it's not really connected to anything.

Other things like the physical size/weight and suspension design etc aren't hugely different between say a NB and ND/GR86. The issue is more that all the points where your body interacts with the car have been designed to remove feel, vibration and physical effort (because most new cars buyers don't like it, or it's for emissions reasons such as throttle maps and EPAS).

[Matt_T]

Good call... I've never driven one but would love to hear from those that have. What are they like?

https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/15183734

[Hoofy]

otolith said:

Hoofy said:

Interesting topic continuing.

otolith said:

Conversely, when I drove the 996, I was really impressed by how it was as easy and vice-free to drive normally as a Golf and as comfortable, well equipped, and refined as a nice 3 series - really impressed by the engineering, but really didn't desire one because I didn't want a car which is so competent at pretending to be ordinary most of the time.

Y'see, I find my 996 a tiresome, PITA raw experience that 75% of the time I cba with. I'd rather take the Golf-in-drag TT.

I can't remember where I posted but I think it's down to the individual's requirements and lifestyle.

Or my 996's suspension and steering needs fixing.

This was a brand new one - my mate had just bought one and had a couple of tickets for their driver training at Silverstone. We went there in his car and drove their cars. From the passenger seat I thought that his was pretty civilised apart from a slightly hard ride.

Although, probably more relevant, is that I fat-fingered the model number, it was a 997!

Oh - I understand the 997s are still supposed to be pretty raw (compared to everyday cars).

[otolith]

Hoofy said:

Oh - I understand the 997s are still supposed to be pretty raw (compared to everyday cars).

Hmm. It's all relative I suppose, I was using my Elise as a daily driver at the time which distorts perspective a bit, but I'd have said the 350Z we also had was probably worse than the Porsche in terms of daily driver civility.

[trevalvole]

BricktopST205 said:

trevalvole said:

Both the GR and the ND have electric power steering, whereas the NB will have had hydraulic. I know it doesn't matter to most people, but I've never felt connected to, or fully confident in, a car with electric power steering and it looks as though your experience might be similar.

My GR86 has electric power steering and my 1995 Toyota Celica GT-Four with hydraulic steering feels just as good.

It feels just as good to you, which is great - I'm not sure it would to me. Different people place importance on different things.