Speed limiters from July 7 2024 on all new cars

[aeropilot]

Terminator X said:

Perhaps melodramatic (moi?) but I won't be buying any new cars whilst this tech exists.

Like me, you won't be buying a new car ever again then, because the cretins creating this legislation are not going to change it.

I'm OK, as being in my early 60's and about to retire, I will be keeping my current 7 year old car for as long as I can, as this ill thought out electronic crap is just the way of the future world. I was hoping to change car last year, for a final time, but forced early retirement scuppered that idea.
Even my 7 year old BMW is infuriating enough with the stupid bongs and gongs with the front sensors that think you are going to hit something when you are not, and I have to resort to crawling at a snails pace up a steep multi-story car park access ramp most days when I go to the gym, as it slammed on the brakes the first time as it thought I was going to crash into the bloody low ceiling.....as the sensors are detecting that...

[Biggy Stardust]

biggbn said:

I'm assuming all of those vehemently against nanny state snooping don't have mobile phones, Internet connections, smart TV or shop online, use store cards etc.... I'm always astonished how they manage to post their protestations given they must surely live off grid with the comfort of a thick blanket and a log burner...(sounds like heaven to me by the way!!)

Are you in favour of nanny state snooping? I would prefer for them to have minimum involvement with my life, ie leave me in peace if I've done nothing wrong.

[Lil_Red_GTV]

Well technically you are doing something wrong if you are speeding.

Around 80% of us do it, though, so the authorities are in the weird position of trying to encourage the law-breaking majority to comply without producing an outcry.

[Ankh87]

What exactly are these speed limiters going to be?
Are they maximum like they are now on some cars where they are set to say 75mph and then the bong happens?
Are they going to go off GPS so you can only turn them off and doesn't matter if its a 20mph area etc?

Personally I have no issues as I would just switch it off if it annoys me. If anything, the annoyance would come down to if new speeds are introduced and the system hasn't caught up. Where I live there once were a 60mph road, its now a 40mph, yet all GPS systems are still showing 60mph. This has been this way for around 4 months now if not longer.

I can see why this is getting put in place but people will speed regardless, unless there's a legal and safe way to limit speed on all roads (baring automated vehicles), then it's not really going to work.

[Tycho]

Fox- said:

Deranged Rover said:

Surely if they are auto-sensing, you can just leave them on all the time?

No, they must be switched on each time you use the car and they remain on for the rest of the journey (and stay on if you stop for a short time).

This resulted in much complaining from people who said it was rubbish and automatic should mean automatic all the time, even though this way of doing it is much more sensible.

Unfortunately, BMW eventually listened to this and the current cars, including my own, are now on all the time. So you're only ever one small bit of water away from the wipers helpfully smearing the screen with dust when you don't want them to. It was much better the way it was before.

Sounds a bit stupid. At least in my Model 3 I can set it to auto, off, I, II or III and It'll remember next time. I can also turn off lane assist, have it bong or have it intervene and it'll remember. I tried an MG4 and it kept on trying to steer me into hedges when going down country lanes as I was getting too close to the centre line. You had to turn it off every time you started the car so I just leased something else.

[The Selfish Gene]

119 said:

kambites said:

119 said:

OldGermanHeaps said:

Remappers will be loving the new revenue stream.

Unlikely as much of it will be hard coded buried deep in the EEPROM which may also leave markers if its messed about with.

It's not really any different than the engine map in that regard and there seems to be a market for fiddling with that.

Oh im not saying its impossible, but would take a fair bit of digging to find and alter, unlike engine remaps, which also can be flagged in the ECU.

And that is assuming it can even be found! Much like people trying to code out stop/start and usually failing.

The problem you have now, with modern ECUs are that they are getting military grade encryption.

A good example would be ECUs on things like Ford Rangers - nobody (to my knowledge) has cracked one yet - so no remapping of say the Raptor to get it to the same BHP Australia, America etc enjoy.

So - as time goes on, this is only going to get worse - as the government tries to clamp down on any modifications at all.

All I'm saying is, if this latest nanny state tech is possible to get around (I doubt it is) it certainly won't be much longer before that isn't possible. So 100% keep your older vehicles.

I know someone that sent back a spanking new car due to the nanny state collision warnings and control because it was so annoying.

My OH has a 2022 Hyundai for shopping duties, and although you can turn it all off - it's so fking annoying - if you couldn't, I would set fire to it.

[scenario8]

Lil_Red_GTV said:

Well technically you are doing something wrong if you are speeding.

Around 80% of us do it, though, so the authorities are in the weird position of trying to encourage the law-breaking majority to comply without producing an outcry.

I’m mildly interested in this 80% figure. Where is that from? Presumably it’s some sort of national figure and measured only over “averaged across any given journey” or something? I would be happy to wager that figure would hover around 99% with reference to 20mph zones in outer south London where I seem to spend my life. (Outside of certain specific roads at specific times of the day/year).

[Lil_Red_GTV]

I have seen various figures mentioned. I recently saw an 80% figure for one road type in the EU but can't now find it again.

DfT figures suggest 85% of UK car drivers break 20mph limits (without traffic calming measures in place). About 50% break 30mph limits and motorway limits.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/vehicle-s...

[scenario8]

Thanks. Again, I would suggest those figures would rise further if they were to measure “on journeys where conditions would permit”. Particularly in the relatively recently reduced sections I’m referencing. I suppose I’m really suggesting that the vast vast majority of drivers exceed the posted limits when they fancy it.

Statistics, though. So easily manipulated.

[pingu393]

I curious what happens with an mph car when driving in a km/h country.

70 limit in N.Ireland, 120 in Eire.

[kambites]

pingu393 said:

I curious what happens with an mph car when driving in a km/h country.

70 limit in N.Ireland, 120 in Eire.

I would assume they adapt. Pretty much all modern cars have GPS transceivers.

[TGCOTF-dewey]

What was wrong with aerodynamic drag and / or gearing?

[RSTurboPaul]

Lil_Red_GTV said:

Well technically you are doing something wrong if you are speeding.

Around 80% of us do it, though, so the authorities are in the weird position of trying to encourage the law-breaking majority to comply without producing an outcry.

If only there was a way to set speed limits that the majority of sensible drivers agreed with (through 'revealed preference' i.e. speed surveys) and which let the police target the fastest vehicles that potentially create most risk.

We could call it 'the 85th percentile rule', and the fastest 15% of drivers could be disregarded as incompetent or flagrantly illegal and be picked up by Police speed monitoring in due course.



Oh, wait, we had that.

And then the morons in charge decided with 'Setting Local Speed Limits 01/2006' (IIRC) that 'average speed' was the correct way to set speed, meaning now half of drivers were apparently incapable of choosing the 'correct' speed (as deemed by those sitting in front of a tick-box spreadsheet) and should be punished.

That's why limits everywhere dropped by about 10mph in recent years, and why driving roads at their historic limits actually feels like making progress Vs dawdling along at the new limits.

[Wills2]

OldGermanHeaps said:

Wills2 said:

Not with the encryption that comes with the new cybersecurity directive that comes into force at the same time.

I have every faith in enterprising eastern european back street garages will have it cracked in no time.

Given the primary reason for the legislation is to stop the malicious hacking of the cars systems by those that would wish us harm, I think the sanctions for hacking it might be more than just a voided warranty.

And if your local tuner can then we're potentially in a world of pain as it means someone can control the steering and throttle inputs.

[Wills2]

RSTurboPaul said:

That's why limits everywhere dropped by about 10mph in recent years, and why driving roads at their historic limits actually feels like making progress Vs dawdling along at the new limits.

This is the issue they have reduced the speed limits to the point where it doesn't make sense to people, where the overriding concern is trying to keep to the limit at the exclusion of all the other facets of driving, 20 mph don't work from the 20mph limit perspective but they do keep the vast majority under 30mph so perhaps that's the win.

So many roads local to me have gone from NSL to 40mph and it doesn't make any sense so people sit at 50mph and at 60 in a 50 zone that was previously NSL.

What people say and what they do when it comes to speed are generally not the same.

[RSTurboPaul]

Lil_Red_GTV said:

I have seen various figures mentioned. I recently saw an 80% figure for one road type in the EU but can't now find it again.

DfT figures suggest 85% of UK car drivers break 20mph limits (without traffic calming measures in place). About 50% break 30mph limits and motorway limits.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/vehicle-s...

The graphics in this report perfectly illustrate both the reasonableness of the 85th Percentile approach to speed limit setting and the utter stupidity of artificially lowered limits.

We can see how the 60mph NSL for single carriageway roads is appropriately set for cars (and how the various calls for a 40mph NSL are moronic) because only 11% exceed 60mph - ergo the majority (89%) feel the limit is correct and only a minority would need to be targeted for speed enforcement:



We can also see in the above how 50% are speeding in 30mph limits, but only 5% are exceeding 40mph. Given how many 40mph limits have been reduced to 30mph in recent years (i.e. through the 'Setting Local Speed Limits' average-speed approach) and how many 30mph limits have arbitrarily been reduced to 20mph (so taking them out of this dataset) one might wonder whether people really are speeding inappropriately for the environment or whether they are just exceeding an arbitrarily lowered limit - if 95% of people feel 40mph is appropriate instead of 30mph, it seems ridiculous to argue that something like half of them are wrong in their assessment.

(We can also see that an 80mph motorway limit would fit perfectly with the 85th percentile approach.)


Further, one can observe the mindlessness of 20mph limits, with 80-85% of drivers exceeding the limit but only 10-17% exceeding 30mph. If the limit was 30mph, that would accord almost perfectly with the 85th percentile approach to speed limit setting, reflecting the majority of drivers' speed choices rather than imposing what is arguably an illogical and political decision to implement 20mph limits in many cases.

Edited by RSTurboPaul on Monday 3rd June 15:07

[scenario8]

Wills2 said:

This is the issue they have reduced the speed limits to the point where it doesn't make sense to people, where the overriding concern is trying to keep to the limit at the exclusion of all the other facets of driving, 20 mph don't work from the 20mph limit perspective but they do keep the vast majority under 30mph so perhaps that's the win.

So many roads local to me have gone from NSL to 40mph and it doesn't make any sense so people sit at 50mph and at 60 in a 50 zone that was previously NSL.

What people say and what they do when it comes to speed are generally not the same.

And yet the cameras have been recalculated down to the lower limits.

(My bold).

[Wills2]

scenario8 said:

Wills2 said:

This is the issue they have reduced the speed limits to the point where it doesn't make sense to people, where the overriding concern is trying to keep to the limit at the exclusion of all the other facets of driving, 20 mph don't work from the 20mph limit perspective but they do keep the vast majority under 30mph so perhaps that's the win.

So many roads local to me have gone from NSL to 40mph and it doesn't make any sense so people sit at 50mph and at 60 in a 50 zone that was previously NSL.

What people say and what they do when it comes to speed are generally not the same.

And yet the cameras have been recalculated down to the lower limits.

(My bold).

My experience locally is that 20mph zones are not enforced we don't have any cameras nor have I ever seen the police vans either (if they did then everyone would be getting a ticket and I mean everyone) I understand that in London and other cities they do.

I should have been clearer about that in my post.

[biggbn]

Biggy Stardust said:

biggbn said:

I'm assuming all of those vehemently against nanny state snooping don't have mobile phones, Internet connections, smart TV or shop online, use store cards etc.... I'm always astonished how they manage to post their protestations given they must surely live off grid with the comfort of a thick blanket and a log burner...(sounds like heaven to me by the way!!)

Are you in favour of nanny state snooping? I would prefer for them to have minimum involvement with my life, ie leave me in peace if I've done nothing wrong.

It doesn't matter of I'm in favour or not, it happens every second of every day and you'd have to be incredibly naive to think otherwise. A car that stores and sends data is just another device to add to the myriad you already have. I identified the fact that an off grid existence with minimal tech would be heavenly for me, but how many of those who regularly pipe up with 'nanny state blah blah blah' genuinely take steps to alleviate these data and personal incursions into their life. I'll wager right now it's not many. Do you?

[E90_M3Ross]

biggbn said:

Biggy Stardust said:

biggbn said:

I'm assuming all of those vehemently against nanny state snooping don't have mobile phones, Internet connections, smart TV or shop online, use store cards etc.... I'm always astonished how they manage to post their protestations given they must surely live off grid with the comfort of a thick blanket and a log burner...(sounds like heaven to me by the way!!)

Are you in favour of nanny state snooping? I would prefer for them to have minimum involvement with my life, ie leave me in peace if I've done nothing wrong.

It doesn't matter of I'm in favour or not, it happens every second of every day and you'd have to be incredibly naive to think otherwise. A car that stores and sends data is just another device to add to the myriad you already have. I identified the fact that an off grid existence with minimal tech would be heavenly for me, but how many of those who regularly pipe up with 'nanny state blah blah blah' genuinely take steps to alleviate these data and personal incursions into their life. I'll wager right now it's not many. Do you?

I'm not sure that's especially relevant to the discussion at hand. Having a mobile phone turned on doesn't interfere with driving RE the speed limit, and if you do go over the speed limit, it's not going to get you a speeding fine. Then there is the fact that mobile phones, on the whole, are incredibly useful for us to use. Having a speed limiter in a car purely giving data to the powers that be serves absolutely no benefit to us, as drivers, at all. It is purely a detrimental thing.