What am I getting wrong about sports cars?
Discussion
As usual, we get into different people's definition of a sports car
To me, a proper British sports car was an MGA, MGB, Spitfire, Lotus Elan, Lotus 7 etc
They weren't the fastest things on the road. They were generally convertible and fun to drive
I agree an E type, 911 etc might be considered a sports car, generally it would be a Sports GT or Sport Coupe
The MX5 is fun because it has excellent handling and feedback
Which shouldn't be confused with high grip
To me, a proper British sports car was an MGA, MGB, Spitfire, Lotus Elan, Lotus 7 etc
They weren't the fastest things on the road. They were generally convertible and fun to drive
I agree an E type, 911 etc might be considered a sports car, generally it would be a Sports GT or Sport Coupe
The MX5 is fun because it has excellent handling and feedback
Which shouldn't be confused with high grip
KTMsm said:
As usual, we get into different people's definition of a sports car
To me, a proper British sports car was an MGA, MGB, Spitfire, Lotus Elan, Lotus 7 etc
They weren't the fastest things on the road. They were generally convertible and fun to drive
I agree an E type, 911 etc might be considered a sports car, generally it would be a Sports GT or Sport Coupe
The MX5 is fun because it has excellent handling and feedback
Which shouldn't be confused with high grip
You see cars in a very similar way to me as well. I only really see stuff like the Caterham 7/Lotus Elise etc as sports cars. The 911 etc aren't anywhere close to a sports car for me, and I'd lump them into the Sports GT or Sport Coupe group too. To me, a proper British sports car was an MGA, MGB, Spitfire, Lotus Elan, Lotus 7 etc
They weren't the fastest things on the road. They were generally convertible and fun to drive
I agree an E type, 911 etc might be considered a sports car, generally it would be a Sports GT or Sport Coupe
The MX5 is fun because it has excellent handling and feedback
Which shouldn't be confused with high grip
I never really know where the MX-5 sits though. Generally they haven't been quick enough to be described as a sports car for me(certainly the earlier models anyway). So I guess that I'd just call them a sporty Roadster I reckon.
My 370Z Roadster falls into no mans land as well in fairness, because it is too heavy to be called a sports car, and it is more of a sports GT for me.
I guess that we all have our own personal view on what a sports car is for sure.
cerb4.5lee said:
I never really know where the MX-5 sits though. Generally they haven't been quick enough to be described as a sports car for me
To me they are the definition of a sports carThe MG Midget (0-60 of 12 seconds) was hardly a ball of fire compared to say a 3.8 Jaguar saloon (8.5 seconds) the rest of them weren't much faster - the exception being the Lotuses
KTMsm said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I never really know where the MX-5 sits though. Generally they haven't been quick enough to be described as a sports car for me
To me they are the definition of a sports carThe MG Midget (0-60 of 12 seconds) was hardly a ball of fire compared to say a 3.8 Jaguar saloon (8.5 seconds) the rest of them weren't much faster - the exception being the Lotuses
I have a tweaked 911, tweaked Elise and slightly tweaked Caterham.
All are sports cars for me. They all require technique to get the best out of them and are fabulous driver's cars on road.
Which one I use depends on my mood, where I am going and what the weather is looking like. But I look forward to driving them all equally...
A bog standard 911 like a bog standard Elise may not give some of us the hit we look for. But uncork them and you quickly see their full ability.
Recently purchased a reasonably old BMW and will be going to town with that too - when done it should be as engaging as the others...
All are sports cars for me. They all require technique to get the best out of them and are fabulous driver's cars on road.
Which one I use depends on my mood, where I am going and what the weather is looking like. But I look forward to driving them all equally...
A bog standard 911 like a bog standard Elise may not give some of us the hit we look for. But uncork them and you quickly see their full ability.
Recently purchased a reasonably old BMW and will be going to town with that too - when done it should be as engaging as the others...
Edited by 911Spanker on Saturday 6th July 17:09
911Spanker said:
I have a tweaked 911, tweaked Elise and slightly tweaked Caterham.
All are sports cars for me. They all require technique to get the best out of them and are fabulous driver's cars on road.
Which one I use depends on my mood, where I am going and what the weather is looking like. But I look forward to driving them all equally...
A bog standard 911 like a bog standard Elise may not give some of us the hit we look for. But uncork them and you quickly see their full ability.
Recently purchased a reasonably old BMW and will be going to town with that too - when done it should be as engaging as the others...
I like the uncorking analogy. All are sports cars for me. They all require technique to get the best out of them and are fabulous driver's cars on road.
Which one I use depends on my mood, where I am going and what the weather is looking like. But I look forward to driving them all equally...
A bog standard 911 like a bog standard Elise may not give some of us the hit we look for. But uncork them and you quickly see their full ability.
Recently purchased a reasonably old BMW and will be going to town with that too - when done it should be as engaging as the others...
Edited by 911Spanker on Saturday 6th July 17:09
It’s a shame the likes of Evo can’t more easily compare well modded cars. There’s so much untapped performance there, the mx5 being a great example. Good mods for lotus, mazda and pork can be great value and reliable. Stock suspension is always to a price, so much so that GT 911s have a completely different system.
CABC said:
911Spanker said:
I have a tweaked 911, tweaked Elise and slightly tweaked Caterham.
All are sports cars for me. They all require technique to get the best out of them and are fabulous driver's cars on road.
Which one I use depends on my mood, where I am going and what the weather is looking like. But I look forward to driving them all equally...
A bog standard 911 like a bog standard Elise may not give some of us the hit we look for. But uncork them and you quickly see their full ability.
Recently purchased a reasonably old BMW and will be going to town with that too - when done it should be as engaging as the others...
I like the uncorking analogy. All are sports cars for me. They all require technique to get the best out of them and are fabulous driver's cars on road.
Which one I use depends on my mood, where I am going and what the weather is looking like. But I look forward to driving them all equally...
A bog standard 911 like a bog standard Elise may not give some of us the hit we look for. But uncork them and you quickly see their full ability.
Recently purchased a reasonably old BMW and will be going to town with that too - when done it should be as engaging as the others...
Edited by 911Spanker on Saturday 6th July 17:09
It’s a shame the likes of Evo can’t more easily compare well modded cars. There’s so much untapped performance there, the mx5 being a great example. Good mods for lotus, mazda and pork can be great value and reliable. Stock suspension is always to a price, so much so that GT 911s have a completely different system.
EVO did feature Jethro's 996 which is probably aligned to mine. Also the Analogue Elise S1 isn't a million miles from my own.
Edited by 911Spanker on Saturday 6th July 17:50
Mr Tidy said:
I lived in Sutton until 2000 so I can understand your pain!
But the A217 from Belmont to Banstead (aka the Mad Mile) still has a 60 limit (even if it was NSL not so long ago). And the B2218 from Belmont to Banstead past the prison still had an NSL limit the last time I went there, although there aren't any bends.
Although most of Surrey is miserable, with average speed cameras on most of the A217 and A24.
So I'll be going back to Scotland for the fourth time in October.
Yeah, I used to thoroughly enjoy these, but the problem is they're literally 1 mile stretches of straight road But the A217 from Belmont to Banstead (aka the Mad Mile) still has a 60 limit (even if it was NSL not so long ago). And the B2218 from Belmont to Banstead past the prison still had an NSL limit the last time I went there, although there aren't any bends.
Although most of Surrey is miserable, with average speed cameras on most of the A217 and A24.
So I'll be going back to Scotland for the fourth time in October.
tberg said:
Turbo LP,
I agree with much of what you said in your opening post. The idea of sports cars for me was originally optics. Thirty years ago when I was about 40 years old, I had friends with supercars, and I wanted one. My closest friend hid his Ferrari 512 bbi in my garage from his ex-wife. And I wanted to be part of that experience. I went out and bought a car that I thought I could afford that fit my narrative, a 1972 De Tomaso Pantera. It looked the part, made lots of noise, got admiring looks from onlookers, but was barely driveable. It would overheat or break down before I could back the 35 feet out of my driveway. In 2013 I bought a 5.0L Jaguar XKR, and I learned some lessons. Although not a sports car, it was quicker, more civilized (meaning I could drive it with shoes on which I couldn't do in my Pantera), was so easy to drive at speed on a track etc. that it changed my expectations of what I wanted out of a car. I parked the Pantera for 3 years, and one day decided that if I couldn't "translate" the lessons I learned from the XKR into the Pantera, I was going to get rid of it. I wasn't getting any younger, and finally I embarked on a 4 year transformation of the Pantera to make it a car I could drive wherever and whenever I wanted in reasonable comfort and luxury. It is now a thrilling ride even at 30mph, the lowness to the ground, the incredible roar from 6" behind your head, the supermodel looks, and the raw, analog feeling of driving a very mechanical feeling 5 speed manual, non power assisted steering which allows for an incredible amount of steering and body feel. About 6 months ago, I had the opportunity to drive a Ferrari F8 of a friend. My shock after doing so was that Ferrari had taken all of the "thrill" out of the car. Zero steering feel, the ride feel of a Cadillac hearse, a drive by wire throttle that gave you no indication of what you were doing. In a word BORING! I couldn't wait to get back into the Pantera. It had little to do with speed as undoubtedly the Ferrari would out perform the Pantera in every measurable category, but there was no enjoyment of the experience. I think you'd be happier with a vintage type of sports car whether it be something like a Triumph TR6 or an MGB, or a Ferrari F355 or 308 or even a Pantera. These cars have a much more fulfilling feel for the road and can excite you at much lower speeds while not breaking the bank. Good luck on your search.
Yeah, this resonates with me. Thanks for the story!I agree with much of what you said in your opening post. The idea of sports cars for me was originally optics. Thirty years ago when I was about 40 years old, I had friends with supercars, and I wanted one. My closest friend hid his Ferrari 512 bbi in my garage from his ex-wife. And I wanted to be part of that experience. I went out and bought a car that I thought I could afford that fit my narrative, a 1972 De Tomaso Pantera. It looked the part, made lots of noise, got admiring looks from onlookers, but was barely driveable. It would overheat or break down before I could back the 35 feet out of my driveway. In 2013 I bought a 5.0L Jaguar XKR, and I learned some lessons. Although not a sports car, it was quicker, more civilized (meaning I could drive it with shoes on which I couldn't do in my Pantera), was so easy to drive at speed on a track etc. that it changed my expectations of what I wanted out of a car. I parked the Pantera for 3 years, and one day decided that if I couldn't "translate" the lessons I learned from the XKR into the Pantera, I was going to get rid of it. I wasn't getting any younger, and finally I embarked on a 4 year transformation of the Pantera to make it a car I could drive wherever and whenever I wanted in reasonable comfort and luxury. It is now a thrilling ride even at 30mph, the lowness to the ground, the incredible roar from 6" behind your head, the supermodel looks, and the raw, analog feeling of driving a very mechanical feeling 5 speed manual, non power assisted steering which allows for an incredible amount of steering and body feel. About 6 months ago, I had the opportunity to drive a Ferrari F8 of a friend. My shock after doing so was that Ferrari had taken all of the "thrill" out of the car. Zero steering feel, the ride feel of a Cadillac hearse, a drive by wire throttle that gave you no indication of what you were doing. In a word BORING! I couldn't wait to get back into the Pantera. It had little to do with speed as undoubtedly the Ferrari would out perform the Pantera in every measurable category, but there was no enjoyment of the experience. I think you'd be happier with a vintage type of sports car whether it be something like a Triumph TR6 or an MGB, or a Ferrari F355 or 308 or even a Pantera. These cars have a much more fulfilling feel for the road and can excite you at much lower speeds while not breaking the bank. Good luck on your search.
turboLP said:
Mr Tidy said:
I lived in Sutton until 2000 so I can understand your pain!
But the A217 from Belmont to Banstead (aka the Mad Mile) still has a 60 limit (even if it was NSL not so long ago). And the B2218 from Belmont to Banstead past the prison still had an NSL limit the last time I went there, although there aren't any bends.
Although most of Surrey is miserable, with average speed cameras on most of the A217 and A24.
So I'll be going back to Scotland for the fourth time in October.
Yeah, I used to thoroughly enjoy these, but the problem is they're literally 1 mile stretches of straight road But the A217 from Belmont to Banstead (aka the Mad Mile) still has a 60 limit (even if it was NSL not so long ago). And the B2218 from Belmont to Banstead past the prison still had an NSL limit the last time I went there, although there aren't any bends.
Although most of Surrey is miserable, with average speed cameras on most of the A217 and A24.
So I'll be going back to Scotland for the fourth time in October.
The A3 used to be a happy playground too, but now it has average cameras from just before the Ace of Spades onwards if you're heading into London. But heading out of London that curve after the Ace underpass is so tempting.
CABC said:
There’s so much untapped performance there, the mx5 being a great example. Good mods for lotus, mazda and pork can be great value and reliable.
Even with standard suspension, an MX5 has a fair bit of geo adjustment available and a good geo/alignment can make a huge difference to how it handles and feels. I assume its a similar story with Lotus etc.KTMsm said:
The MG Midget (0-60 of 12 seconds) was hardly a ball of fire compared to say a 3.8 Jaguar saloon (8.5 seconds) the rest of them weren't much faster - the exception being the Lotuses
But you need to remember the 3.8 Jaguar was the equivalent on the M5 today. The MG is a sports car with lightness and good steering.
The Jaguar is much quicker but steering is not a patch on the MG and much heaver.
Modern MX5 v BMW M5
to me Sports cars are fun to drive and to be driven for the heck of driving.
A Frogeye Sprite struggled to break 20 seconds to 60 but so what ? My second most fun car was a 2CV which took even longer. And while the last series Midget(1500) might make 60 in 12 seconds, my 1275 Midget was more like 14 seconds .
But such metrics about 0-60 (not to mention Nurburgring lap 'records') are mainly vanity and folly . Sports cars are about frivolity , feel and fun.
But such metrics about 0-60 (not to mention Nurburgring lap 'records') are mainly vanity and folly . Sports cars are about frivolity , feel and fun.
coppice said:
A Frogeye Sprite struggled to break 20 seconds to 60 but so what ? My second most fun car was a 2CV which took even longer. And while the last series Midget(1500) might make 60 in 12 seconds, my 1275 Midget was more like 14 seconds .
But such metrics about 0-60 (not to mention Nurburgring lap 'records') are mainly vanity and folly . Sports cars are about frivolity , feel and fun.
I was a passenger in a Frogeye years ago and I still remember it well.But such metrics about 0-60 (not to mention Nurburgring lap 'records') are mainly vanity and folly . Sports cars are about frivolity , feel and fun.
Very low, felt very fast but of course wasn’t and almost motorbike like in terms of your connection to the world.
For me, it doesn't get much more spot on than my 1 of 15 Elise S3 220 Sprint.
Perfect balance and feel, enough power to make you giggle, small enough for our roads and able to cope with the crappy quality of them. Lashings of carbon and lightweight parts (until my 6'4" 16 stone weight f
ks it all up), a titanium exhaust that pops and crackles and a supercharger intake whine that is intoxicating.
I've had 2 x Honda S2000, driven many Mx5, 348TB Fez, Pork, Caterham et al but still come back to this.
Perfect balance and feel, enough power to make you giggle, small enough for our roads and able to cope with the crappy quality of them. Lashings of carbon and lightweight parts (until my 6'4" 16 stone weight f
ks it all up), a titanium exhaust that pops and crackles and a supercharger intake whine that is intoxicating.I've had 2 x Honda S2000, driven many Mx5, 348TB Fez, Pork, Caterham et al but still come back to this.
Edited by Quags on Monday 8th July 10:41
swisstoni said:
I was a passenger in a Frogeye years ago and I still remember it well.
Very low, felt very fast but of course wasn’t and almost motorbike like in terms of your connection to the world.
I had a MkI Midget back in the day; same 948cc engine. It ‘felt’ fast (compared to a 997cc Anglia!)Very low, felt very fast but of course wasn’t and almost motorbike like in terms of your connection to the world.
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