Bahnstorming Speeds
Discussion
Recent experiences in Germany in run of the mill hire cars have led me to conclude that the 160ish kmh that the locals broadly seem to settle at in 'normal' cars is a pretty good balance of speed vs stress on driver vs fuel efficiency.
I have also spent time there in a current generation M3 which made 150 mph feel very comfortable in terms of the car itself, the more challenging aspect being the level of concentration required from the driver to maintain it for any extended period. It's also a much better experience in something with 500bhp that will take you between 100 and 150 in circa 10 seconds, in my opinion it actually makes the whole thing safer because it reduces any reluctance to slow down that may be present when you know it'll take hours to wind the thing back up again.
I have also spent time there in a current generation M3 which made 150 mph feel very comfortable in terms of the car itself, the more challenging aspect being the level of concentration required from the driver to maintain it for any extended period. It's also a much better experience in something with 500bhp that will take you between 100 and 150 in circa 10 seconds, in my opinion it actually makes the whole thing safer because it reduces any reluctance to slow down that may be present when you know it'll take hours to wind the thing back up again.
Agreed with most on the comfortable cruising speeds not necessarily being the car's comfortable speed; If I was there every day I'd happily join the pottering along brigade (As I usually do here at home) - The 100Kmh waft once back in the Netherlands was quite relaxing by comparison 
Also not a fan of passing vehicles at mega-mega speed differentials where there isn't an extra lane to put between us - I was quite fortunate with the traffic volumes / spacing to manage the pace without engaging in complete lunacy.
Not having to shuffle cogs and listen to screaming engines does make the slow down -> pass -> resume speed much more manageable - Who needs regenerative braking when you can come off the throttle to 140MPH worth of air resistance?
Also not a fan of passing vehicles at mega-mega speed differentials where there isn't an extra lane to put between us - I was quite fortunate with the traffic volumes / spacing to manage the pace without engaging in complete lunacy.
JWH said:
It's also a much better experience in something with 500bhp that will take you between 100 and 150 in circa 10 seconds, in my opinion it actually makes the whole thing safer because it reduces any reluctance to slow down that may be present when you know it'll take hours to wind the thing back up again.
That's a valid point - I did observe a few slightly dodgy maneuvers that were clearly carried out with the view of conserving momentum by the <1.5L Econoboxes.Not having to shuffle cogs and listen to screaming engines does make the slow down -> pass -> resume speed much more manageable - Who needs regenerative braking when you can come off the throttle to 140MPH worth of air resistance?
I do it reasonably often, have done 3 x GT3RS of various kinds , Panamera Turbo and a bunch of other stuff.
All the aero on the RS slows them down in terms of top speed, so about 170 MPH is what you get. However, years ago (2006) I had a new E63 M6 which was delimited at Hartge and we took a pair of them out for a run on a Sunday morning at 4am...proper tires etc, and got well over 180MPH with no difficulty, though speedo read over 200MPH of course........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTMKkPxei0I
All the aero on the RS slows them down in terms of top speed, so about 170 MPH is what you get. However, years ago (2006) I had a new E63 M6 which was delimited at Hartge and we took a pair of them out for a run on a Sunday morning at 4am...proper tires etc, and got well over 180MPH with no difficulty, though speedo read over 200MPH of course........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTMKkPxei0I
cerb4.5lee said:
MattsCar said:
I can't imagine driving with my mother at 140mph.
I've been in a car with my mum driving at 140mph back in 80's in fairness! Both my dad and mum loved driving at high speed, and I guess that has rubbed off on me as well rightly or wrongly. 
EmailAddress said:
GeniusOfLove said:
Every 3 series I've tried, including M3s, are clearly well outside of their comfort zone at 200kph. They'll get there just fine, but they are noisy and unsettled.
Mercedes seem excellent at this, in both a little 2003 SLK320 and 2008 SLK350 I've found them very very stable and settled right up to the limiter at 250kph, probably the shortest wheelbase cars least suited to high speed running that Mercedes sold at the time.
I find it a much less taxing experience in something with big power that can get from 160kph back up to 200kph or so in a few seconds rather than the tens of seconds something like a 330d would take.
What are you on about?Mercedes seem excellent at this, in both a little 2003 SLK320 and 2008 SLK350 I've found them very very stable and settled right up to the limiter at 250kph, probably the shortest wheelbase cars least suited to high speed running that Mercedes sold at the time.
I find it a much less taxing experience in something with big power that can get from 160kph back up to 200kph or so in a few seconds rather than the tens of seconds something like a 330d would take.
I've driven at 165mph in my old E92 M3, and it was absolutely rock solid and planted at that speed in my opinion. So that isn't my experience of the 3 series to be honest for sure.
This takes me back to my only time on the AB in the early 2000's.
Four of us arrived late at night at Hamburg Lubeck Airport for a Tenpin Bowling competition in Hamburg city centre, a guy was waiting for us to take us to the hotel in town. The bloke must had been there for hours waiting, he had a Volvo 440 and I couldn't believe how fast he was driving the speedo just kept going, his eyes were on storks as well. Big black cars going past though in a blur!
Year after we rented our own car, this was a Mk4 Golf 1.4...bearing in mind the weight was about 60LBs x 4 of bowling balls we decided to have a little thrash out on the way to the airport, it was a surreal experience but id never feel like I could sustain that speed for long, the breaking and getting slowed down was half the problem.
Four of us arrived late at night at Hamburg Lubeck Airport for a Tenpin Bowling competition in Hamburg city centre, a guy was waiting for us to take us to the hotel in town. The bloke must had been there for hours waiting, he had a Volvo 440 and I couldn't believe how fast he was driving the speedo just kept going, his eyes were on storks as well. Big black cars going past though in a blur!
Year after we rented our own car, this was a Mk4 Golf 1.4...bearing in mind the weight was about 60LBs x 4 of bowling balls we decided to have a little thrash out on the way to the airport, it was a surreal experience but id never feel like I could sustain that speed for long, the breaking and getting slowed down was half the problem.
GeniusOfLove said:
AmyRichardson said:
I've only driven good lengths of derestricted highways in two cars: a CLS55 and a boggo(SE)-spec 330d.
Even though both could do 250kph and 220kph without getting into incremental acceleration zone, the experience of was absolute night-&-day. The BMW, soft & badly damped, wasn't great company much above 190kph - upset by expansion gaps, the wash of HGVs, etc. The AMG was, by comparison, flawless; drop/harden the Airmatic and the body control is good (no perceptible excess rebound), tracks perfectly holding true through surface and aero disturbances - 250kph and no sweaty palms.
Big AMG good on autobahn. Up next: Pope admits adherence to Catholicism.
Pretty much as the OP guesses at; a firmer car, possibly firmer than is ideal up to normal m-way speeds and the daily schlep in general, does inspire more confidence at high speeds. However, I suspect there's more to it than that; certain firm set ups won't be as good as others, but I wouldn't want to guess why!
Every 3 series I've tried, including M3s, are clearly well outside of their comfort zone at 200kph. They'll get there just fine, but they are noisy and unsettled.Even though both could do 250kph and 220kph without getting into incremental acceleration zone, the experience of was absolute night-&-day. The BMW, soft & badly damped, wasn't great company much above 190kph - upset by expansion gaps, the wash of HGVs, etc. The AMG was, by comparison, flawless; drop/harden the Airmatic and the body control is good (no perceptible excess rebound), tracks perfectly holding true through surface and aero disturbances - 250kph and no sweaty palms.
Big AMG good on autobahn. Up next: Pope admits adherence to Catholicism.
Pretty much as the OP guesses at; a firmer car, possibly firmer than is ideal up to normal m-way speeds and the daily schlep in general, does inspire more confidence at high speeds. However, I suspect there's more to it than that; certain firm set ups won't be as good as others, but I wouldn't want to guess why!
Mercedes seem excellent at this, in both a little 2003 SLK320 and 2008 SLK350 I've found them very very stable and settled right up to the limiter at 250kph, probably the shortest wheelbase cars least suited to high speed running that Mercedes sold at the time.
I find it a much less taxing experience in something with big power that can get from 160kph back up to 200kph or so in a few seconds rather than the tens of seconds something like a 330d would take.
Another Mercedes admirer here. Our Ski trip barge for the last 15 years or so is an ML420. Even though it’s fairly ancient now it’s an excellent cruiser at 160 - 220KPH. Very directionally stable, plenty of overtaking grunt still in hand. Its V max is bang on 150MPH indicated and even at that it’s no sweat at all. The only downside is how quickly it lashes its way through diesel at an over a 160KPH cruise. Certainly sub 20MPG and down to 15MPG at Vmax. It’s about 3 hours between stops and about 300 to 350 miles. That is evening and night time traveling when there is very little traffic. Its a bloody good barge.
Never driven on the Autobahn personally, but I did get a taxi from Frankfurt airport to a small town 2 hours south last year. Taxi was a brand new (2023) E220d Estate and was driven by an absolute madman!
The accelerator was an on/off switch and he’d fly up behind a car in front, frantically flash his lights to get them to move over and then nail it again. Car felt perfectly stable but as a passenger it was absolutely terrifying
Think I saw 220kph on the speedo so not massive speed, but uncomfortable as a passenger in the back of a lunatics car.
They must absolutely rinse the fuel driving flat out all the time as well?
The accelerator was an on/off switch and he’d fly up behind a car in front, frantically flash his lights to get them to move over and then nail it again. Car felt perfectly stable but as a passenger it was absolutely terrifying
Think I saw 220kph on the speedo so not massive speed, but uncomfortable as a passenger in the back of a lunatics car.
They must absolutely rinse the fuel driving flat out all the time as well?
Like others have said, with roadworks it’s a ‘ha nice try’ most of the time. After a top speed run to purge the system I then usually settle down at 100-120 where I can. North of 200kph is rare in Germany and closing in on trucks with a 70mph speed differential isn’t always smart. Sunday mornings in the summer are best for going fast. Very little traffic and even fewer trucks.
We’ve beat the Google maps estimate from Amsterdam to Hamburg before, including a quick stop for a currywurst.
The A31 near the Dutch border is my favourite for going fast. A real flying place and quiet. Bavaria in the summer is miserable for trying to get a shift on.
We’ve beat the Google maps estimate from Amsterdam to Hamburg before, including a quick stop for a currywurst.
The A31 near the Dutch border is my favourite for going fast. A real flying place and quiet. Bavaria in the summer is miserable for trying to get a shift on.
Mad Maximus said:
I cruise at 65 here as it’s so so so much more relaxing and I don’t drive far enough for it to matter. No point rushing for 10 mins. I couldn’t imagine cruising at 100mph it must be so exhausting.
You'd be surprised.100mph on a clear, quietly trafficked, German autobahn is comfortable in the right car (in my case, a bog standard 1.8 Vectra
). One does, however, need some diligence when overtaking; cars in the outside lane could be doing 60mph more and they appear very quickly indeed. It does improve one's observation skills, which - of course - can only be a good thing GeniusOfLove said:
Every 3 series I've tried, including M3s, are clearly well outside of their comfort zone at 200kph. They'll get there just fine, but they are noisy and unsettled.
Mercedes seem excellent at this, in both a little 2003 SLK320 and 2008 SLK350 I've found them very very stable and settled right up to the limiter at 250kph, probably the shortest wheelbase cars least suited to high speed running that Mercedes sold at the time.
I find it a much less taxing experience in something with big power that can get from 160kph back up to 200kph or so in a few seconds rather than the tens of seconds something like a 330d would take.
Riiiiiiight.Mercedes seem excellent at this, in both a little 2003 SLK320 and 2008 SLK350 I've found them very very stable and settled right up to the limiter at 250kph, probably the shortest wheelbase cars least suited to high speed running that Mercedes sold at the time.
I find it a much less taxing experience in something with big power that can get from 160kph back up to 200kph or so in a few seconds rather than the tens of seconds something like a 330d would take.
matrignano said:
I’m surprised how many said they feel unsafe above 100mph in I assume a modern and well maintained car!
Is it an age thing? Younger drivers perhaps less confident than older ones?
Or is it because of a lack of practice, for those in the UK at least?
Even though it is alien to me, I remember someone on here saying that some folk don't actually have the confidence to drive at high speed, and I think that is a fair point when you think about it. Is it an age thing? Younger drivers perhaps less confident than older ones?
Or is it because of a lack of practice, for those in the UK at least?
Age definitely plays a part for sure, and I grew up in an era without speed cameras(I only had a few years driving myself before they started popping up though), plus traffic volume was much less too. So the younger generation don't arguably get the opportunity to stretch the legs of a car like I did(or my parents) for example.
In saying all that...there is always a time and place still to get your foot down even now if you really want to though anyway I reckon.
Plus cars are actually getting quicker now with EVs and not slower, so folk wanting to get their foot down won't change anytime soon either I'd imagine.
I lived in Hamburg for about 18 months from 2009-2011. I had my UK-registered BMW 330Ci with me. I only ever got it flat out once, with a GPS reading of 258mph. But I found anything above 180km/h too tiring to maintain for any length of time just due to the concentration required. During the day I was hyper observant of cars in the right lane which might pull out in front of me, and at night when the traffic density was lower, I was afraid of driving at a speed where I couldn't see that the road ahead of me was clear of obstructions in the distance that I knew I would be able to slow down or take evasive action in time.
From time to time during the day I would push up to around 220km/h if I had a long way to go and there wasn't much traffic about, but I couldn't keep it up for too long. Those people who can sustain 250km/h+ for long sections are either braver than me or stupider than me. Probably both.
From time to time during the day I would push up to around 220km/h if I had a long way to go and there wasn't much traffic about, but I couldn't keep it up for too long. Those people who can sustain 250km/h+ for long sections are either braver than me or stupider than me. Probably both.
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