Does a low top speed in a performance car bother you?
Discussion
otolith said:
All car design is a set of compromises, and not having to support an unusable top speed should remove a constraint in those decisions.
If we weren't transitioning to EV over the next few decades then I would imagine that capping top speed at 120 would have lead to some really interesting changes in car designs and dynamics as manufacturers were freed from what is for the most part an utterly pointless top trumps metric and all the compromises it causes with how we do actually use cars. Manufacturers would have ended up having to compete to make their products interesting at normal road speeds rather than at speeds no one ever uses in the normal world. As it stands, I'm not sure it will lead to any interesting product shifts, which is a bit of a shame. 
Mouse Rat said:
In a performance car yes. It would make me question stuff like why limit performance and what other restrictions or constraints have been imposed on components and durability.
On a daily, family, shed, EV etc it wouldn't bother me.
I think that is what fascinates me the most about the Cyberster really, it is a performance car, but without the performance if you know what I mean. It seems silly to me to give something over 500bhp, but then cap it to only 125mph. It just doesn't make sense to me. On a daily, family, shed, EV etc it wouldn't bother me.
As the thread has proved though, the majority don't seem interested in driving at high speeds anyway, so I guess that MG know their market far better than I do in fairness.
cerb4.5lee said:
I think that is what fascinates me the most about the Cyberster really, it is a performance car, but without the performance if you know what I mean. It seems silly to me to give something over 500bhp, but then cap it to only 125mph. It just doesn't make sense to me.
As the thread has proved though, the majority don't seem interested in driving at high speeds anyway, so I guess that MG know their market far better than I do in fairness.
The majority of people don't have a use for such high speeds away from the track and this product reflects the fact that EVs are some time away from being used as such. As the thread has proved though, the majority don't seem interested in driving at high speeds anyway, so I guess that MG know their market far better than I do in fairness.
With road cars what really matters is how much fun they are below 100 not above. This isn't anything particularly new either.
cerb4.5lee said:
I think that is what fascinates me the most about the Cyberster really, it is a performance car, but without the performance if you know what I mean. It seems silly to me to give something over 500bhp, but then cap it to only 125mph. It just doesn't make sense to me.
I have to say that's quite bizarre to me, that top speed is the measure of performance.The power is primarily there to provide strong acceleration, the top speed is a more of a by-product of using that power in a high gear to overcome drag.
Pretty much anything with 500 bhp that isn't brick shaped could hit 200 mph.
In a road car that would never see a track (such as the MG example) then it wouldn't bother me a jot in this country if it was limited to 100mph.
The way that our roads have evolved, it's all about acceleration and handling now - top speed is irrelevant.
Not too often, but I will go over a 100 most days though. I think it is more that I'd be pegged back to just 125 if I did want to go quicker though, and that bothers me. Given the profligacy of cameras in this country, I'm genuinely surprised that someone goes over 100mph, which let's face it is licence-losing territory, "most days"
Do you live on the Isle of Man or something?
The way that our roads have evolved, it's all about acceleration and handling now - top speed is irrelevant.
cerb4.5lee said:
ecsrobin said:
cerb4.5lee said:
We've been discussing the top speed on another thread about the new electric MG Roadster, and its top speed is only a 125mph, yet it has over 500bhp though.
For me personally I'd want it to go quicker than a 125mph, and I don't like Volvo anymore because they limit their cars to only a 112mph as well.
So would a low top speed in a performance car bother you?
How often are you above 125? For me personally I'd want it to go quicker than a 125mph, and I don't like Volvo anymore because they limit their cars to only a 112mph as well.
So would a low top speed in a performance car bother you?
Do you live on the Isle of Man or something?
wc98 said:
J4CKO said:
Not sure that car is the thing lacking performance here Lee 
More to driving than aim, plant foot and receive acceleration and speed, its a big part of it but sounds like you need to calm down a bit if you are regularly doing well over 100 mph trying to enjoy your cars. If you cant enjoy them below 100 mph on the roads then you are on borrowed time, license wise.
Seriously, do a track day in your Caterham, get it fettled beforehand and book some tuition and you will get more out of that than doing 150 in an automatic BMW. On track you can consistently get near the limit and explore the car, on the road its little glimpses every now and again, frustration and potential for prosecution.
Any car I can buy will have enough top speed, the roads however dont, you can push the envelope a little but a top speed of 125 is academic unless playing Top Trumps, or it should be.
I believe you have a hot hatch with over 300 hp ? I'm thinking even on the average b road around here you will be doing well over 100mph at many points when having fun and yes the slower bits will be just as much fun due to camber changes, crests ,jumps ,switchbacks, hairpins and every other corner combination possible.More to driving than aim, plant foot and receive acceleration and speed, its a big part of it but sounds like you need to calm down a bit if you are regularly doing well over 100 mph trying to enjoy your cars. If you cant enjoy them below 100 mph on the roads then you are on borrowed time, license wise.
Seriously, do a track day in your Caterham, get it fettled beforehand and book some tuition and you will get more out of that than doing 150 in an automatic BMW. On track you can consistently get near the limit and explore the car, on the road its little glimpses every now and again, frustration and potential for prosecution.
Any car I can buy will have enough top speed, the roads however dont, you can push the envelope a little but a top speed of 125 is academic unless playing Top Trumps, or it should be.
I've been down a few as a passenger in a friends 400hp Focus RS, he is a far better driver than i am so have no problem despite not being a good passenger a lot of the time. The average speeds over even fairly tight roads are incredible in that thing and on sticky tyres you would have to do something incredibly stupid to crash. It basically did bike speeds and was a lot of fun. Obviously have to pick your days and you won't be doing that with much in the way of traffic around but up here it is entirely possible to do on a regular basis without causing anyone any problems due to the amount of technical b roads with little traffic on them at times. The actual speed is just a function of having a "sporting drive" it's not the target.
I have to admit to not being comfortable doing big speeds in a car due to the lack of space if something happens whereas the bike was fine due to the amount of options you have should something untoward happen and for the people saying 125 mph is high speed, do they know it's only one or maybe two (for the mechanically sympathetic) gear changes away on most sports bikes made in the last twenty years ?
Another thing from this discussion i can't comprehend is enthusiasts owning cars or bikes they have never maxed out. Every single vehicle i have ever owned i have had flat out (the bikes every time i was out on them bar the odd occasion,usually when it was raining) although i've only owned one car that would do 140mph to now and every motoring enthusiast i know is the same, including those owning Mclarens, Ferraris etc. These days i don't have a bike and my motoring fun is reduced to driving a slow car quickly on some great roads and i enjoy that a lot but i can't deny it is as fun as ragging a sports bike down some nice a or b roads all day.
I do tend to avoid doing huge speed, just because it can, across the Cheshire A and B roads, some restraint is required and you find its a little blast here and there but its difficult due to trucks, cyclists, walkers, other cars etc, plus I am not all that as a driver so like to keep a bit back.
Its generally not the car thats the limiting factor on outright speed for me, its my desire not to end up in a ditch or hurt anyone else, or even just get nicked.
Thats what track days are for, can just go flat out without the worry, pains me to see these young lads in very fast stuff like tuned M140I's blasting down urban and resedential roads, 450 bhp cars can be had for 15 grand or less nowadays which is a bit worrying.
125 mph is more than enough. Except for the IOM and parts of the German autobahn (where I’d wager that 125 is still perfectly adequate) going anywhere near that speed in Europe is going to land you in jail, getting an astronomical fine, your car taken off you - any or all of those outcomes.
Capable of reaching 90-100 and cruising at that speed in comfort will do me.
I’ve got and have had plenty of cars and bikes capable of 155/186mph and it’s a waste. You get the odd Walt/bulls
tter/string backed driving gloves types on here who reckon that they need to go 160mph on the family holiday across Germany but I’ve never seen one in person (I used to live in Munich too). I’d much rather the manufacturers concentrated on other aspects of the vehicle and drive train than an utterly meaningless top speed.
Capable of reaching 90-100 and cruising at that speed in comfort will do me.
I’ve got and have had plenty of cars and bikes capable of 155/186mph and it’s a waste. You get the odd Walt/bulls
tter/string backed driving gloves types on here who reckon that they need to go 160mph on the family holiday across Germany but I’ve never seen one in person (I used to live in Munich too). I’d much rather the manufacturers concentrated on other aspects of the vehicle and drive train than an utterly meaningless top speed. Dog Star said:
125 mph is more than enough. Except for the IOM and parts of the German autobahn (where I’d wager that 125 is still perfectly adequate) going anywhere near that speed in Europe is going to land you in jail, getting an astronomical fine, your car taken off you - any or all of those outcomes.
Capable of reaching 90-100 and cruising at that speed in comfort will do me.
I’ve got and have had plenty of cars and bikes capable of 155/186mph and it’s a waste. You get the odd Walt/bullstter/string backed driving gloves types on here who reckon that they need to go 160mph on the family holiday across Germany but I’ve never seen one in person (I used to live in Munich too). I’d much rather the manufacturers concentrated on other aspects of the vehicle and drive train than an utterly meaningless top speed.
It is rare to see anyone absolutely tanking it nowadays as you say. I guess the threat of getting banned, plus the multitude of speed cameras, and the traffic volume puts people off now. Capable of reaching 90-100 and cruising at that speed in comfort will do me.
I’ve got and have had plenty of cars and bikes capable of 155/186mph and it’s a waste. You get the odd Walt/bulls
tter/string backed driving gloves types on here who reckon that they need to go 160mph on the family holiday across Germany but I’ve never seen one in person (I used to live in Munich too). I’d much rather the manufacturers concentrated on other aspects of the vehicle and drive train than an utterly meaningless top speed. There was a time(even in the UK) when folk did used to drive at high speeds though. Even I remember a time when you could easily sit in the outside lane of the motorway at a 100mph, and I'm only in my early 50's for example.
I still remember how sad I felt when I saw the first ever speed camera pop up, and it only went downhill from there sadly.
cerb4.5lee said:
Dog Star said:
125 mph is more than enough. Except for the IOM and parts of the German autobahn (where I’d wager that 125 is still perfectly adequate) going anywhere near that speed in Europe is going to land you in jail, getting an astronomical fine, your car taken off you - any or all of those outcomes.
Capable of reaching 90-100 and cruising at that speed in comfort will do me.
I’ve got and have had plenty of cars and bikes capable of 155/186mph and it’s a waste. You get the odd Walt/bullstter/string backed driving gloves types on here who reckon that they need to go 160mph on the family holiday across Germany but I’ve never seen one in person (I used to live in Munich too). I’d much rather the manufacturers concentrated on other aspects of the vehicle and drive train than an utterly meaningless top speed.
It is rare to see anyone absolutely tanking it nowadays as you say. I guess the threat of getting banned, plus the multitude of speed cameras, and the traffic volume puts people off now. Capable of reaching 90-100 and cruising at that speed in comfort will do me.
I’ve got and have had plenty of cars and bikes capable of 155/186mph and it’s a waste. You get the odd Walt/bulls
tter/string backed driving gloves types on here who reckon that they need to go 160mph on the family holiday across Germany but I’ve never seen one in person (I used to live in Munich too). I’d much rather the manufacturers concentrated on other aspects of the vehicle and drive train than an utterly meaningless top speed. There was a time(even in the UK) when folk did used to drive at high speeds though. Even I remember a time when you could easily sit in the outside lane of the motorway at a 100mph, and I'm only in my early 50's for example.
I still remember how sad I felt when I saw the first ever speed camera pop up, and it only went downhill from there sadly.
I recall several trips from London to the Midlands which were achieved in times that are simply impossible now, even on an empty motorway, due to the camera risk.
So those times, sadly in a way, are gone. I can't remember the last time I got over 80mph on the motorway, let alone 100.
This was TVR (and a few other sportcar manufacturers) real party trick..
They managed to build cars that were both enjoyable and thrilling a license losing speeds in most of europe, but also engaging and emotive at lower speeds as well.
Just burbling and cracking along at 20-40 mph in a wedge, a S, a griffamera, cerb, tuscan etc - was equally engaging (but very different) to dooing 60, 70, 80, 100+ etc
You wouldn't want to cruise the autobahn at 150+ in most of them (At least not my chimaera - if it would get there) - but that wasn't the point.
I see the same argument and justification with caterfields and the like, etc.
My a daily (a 340hp S4) - whilst at least as quick in the real world as my Chimaera, and much quicker and calmer place to be at autobahn speeds, is nowhere near as engaging.
Buts it s 5 door estate family wagon - so it is trying to be something very different
I see the same when people write about 500hp 2.5t EVs etc
They managed to build cars that were both enjoyable and thrilling a license losing speeds in most of europe, but also engaging and emotive at lower speeds as well.
Just burbling and cracking along at 20-40 mph in a wedge, a S, a griffamera, cerb, tuscan etc - was equally engaging (but very different) to dooing 60, 70, 80, 100+ etc
You wouldn't want to cruise the autobahn at 150+ in most of them (At least not my chimaera - if it would get there) - but that wasn't the point.
I see the same argument and justification with caterfields and the like, etc.
My a daily (a 340hp S4) - whilst at least as quick in the real world as my Chimaera, and much quicker and calmer place to be at autobahn speeds, is nowhere near as engaging.
Buts it s 5 door estate family wagon - so it is trying to be something very different
I see the same when people write about 500hp 2.5t EVs etc
HiAsAKite said:
This was TVR (and a few other sportcar manufacturers) real party trick..
They managed to build cars that were both enjoyable and thrilling a license losing speeds in most of europe, but also engaging and emotive at lower speeds as well.
One could make a strong argument that the way they achieved this was by not bothering to engineer their cars to actually be safe at the speeds they could achieve. They managed to build cars that were both enjoyable and thrilling a license losing speeds in most of europe, but also engaging and emotive at lower speeds as well.
HiAsAKite said:
This was TVR (and a few other sportcar manufacturers) real party trick..
They managed to build cars that were both enjoyable and thrilling a license losing speeds in most of europe, but also engaging and emotive at lower speeds as well.
Just burbling and cracking along at 20-40 mph in a wedge, a S, a griffamera, cerb, tuscan etc - was equally engaging (but very different) to dooing 60, 70, 80, 100+ etc
You wouldn't want to cruise the autobahn at 150+ in most of them (At least not my chimaera - if it would get there) - but that wasn't the point.
I see the same argument and justification with caterfields and the like, etc.
My a daily (a 340hp S4) - whilst at least as quick in the real world as my Chimaera, and much quicker and calmer place to be at autobahn speeds, is nowhere near as engaging.
Buts it s 5 door estate family wagon - so it is trying to be something very different
I see the same when people write about 500hp 2.5t EVs etc
I loved my Cerbera for that as well, and you didn't need to be absolutely flogging it to have fun/enjoyment. The upgraded exhaust gives me a fair bit of theatre in the 370Z, and that is enjoyable when you tickle the throttle a bit/downshift etc, but the Cerb was a master at that though I thought. They managed to build cars that were both enjoyable and thrilling a license losing speeds in most of europe, but also engaging and emotive at lower speeds as well.
Just burbling and cracking along at 20-40 mph in a wedge, a S, a griffamera, cerb, tuscan etc - was equally engaging (but very different) to dooing 60, 70, 80, 100+ etc
You wouldn't want to cruise the autobahn at 150+ in most of them (At least not my chimaera - if it would get there) - but that wasn't the point.
I see the same argument and justification with caterfields and the like, etc.
My a daily (a 340hp S4) - whilst at least as quick in the real world as my Chimaera, and much quicker and calmer place to be at autobahn speeds, is nowhere near as engaging.
Buts it s 5 door estate family wagon - so it is trying to be something very different
I see the same when people write about 500hp 2.5t EVs etc
kambites said:
HiAsAKite said:
This was TVR (and a few other sportcar manufacturers) real party trick..
They managed to build cars that were both enjoyable and thrilling a license losing speeds in most of europe, but also engaging and emotive at lower speeds as well.
One could make a strong argument that the way they achieved this was by not bothering to engineer their cars to actually be safe at the speeds they could achieve. They managed to build cars that were both enjoyable and thrilling a license losing speeds in most of europe, but also engaging and emotive at lower speeds as well.
Plus if you forgot to lock the bonnet under the dash, that would also lift up on its own at high speed too. A TVR will always make you smile(and cry at times) that is for sure.
cerb4.5lee said:
kambites said:
HiAsAKite said:
This was TVR (and a few other sportcar manufacturers) real party trick..
They managed to build cars that were both enjoyable and thrilling a license losing speeds in most of europe, but also engaging and emotive at lower speeds as well.
One could make a strong argument that the way they achieved this was by not bothering to engineer their cars to actually be safe at the speeds they could achieve. They managed to build cars that were both enjoyable and thrilling a license losing speeds in most of europe, but also engaging and emotive at lower speeds as well.
Plus if you forgot to lock the bonnet under the dash, that would also lift up on its own at high speed too. A TVR will always make you smile(and cry at times) that is for sure.
Edited by HiAsAKite on Thursday 27th June 13:07
Nomme de Plum said:
Mr Tidy said:
LooneyTunes said:
Nomme de Plum said:
LooneyTunes said:
Nomme de Plum said:
Mr Tidy said:
Given that observation about the impact high speeds have on range with EVs I can see why they have speed limiters, but then I still can't think of EVs as performance cars!
Both my BMW have 155mph limiters, but apparently they only interfere in 6th and if you are looking for Vmax you'd still be in 5th anyway as they are manuals.
I'll never get close to the limiter in the UK, I just like knowing if I ever go to Germany and find the right Autobahn or visit the Isle Of Man my right foot would be the limiter!
Try a Taycan and you may change your view on their potential as a performance car. Both my BMW have 155mph limiters, but apparently they only interfere in 6th and if you are looking for Vmax you'd still be in 5th anyway as they are manuals.
I'll never get close to the limiter in the UK, I just like knowing if I ever go to Germany and find the right Autobahn or visit the Isle Of Man my right foot would be the limiter!
None of this is criticism, just shows how much views vary on individual cars/preferences!
I do not desire a road car to be exciting. Just clinically effective which the Taycan seems to do but it is still very early days in the world of the EV.
My TVRs were exciting and in no way boring but as transport absolutely useless.
HiAsAKite said:
I've not had that- but once the bonnet didn't latch properly and thus I had it slowly rise up as the car sped up to about 60, only to sink down again on slowing down..(for those of you unaware - TVR bonnets are front hinged- so there was no risk of it flipping up and round)
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