What am I getting wrong about sports cars?

[turboLP]

braddo said:

OP, where are you based? North America?

I'm in the UK

[turboLP]

BricktopST205 said:

I think what the OP is more saying is that he lives in a congested area of the country and cannot stretch the legs of a sports car and it feels too mundane at slow speed

Even a GR86 by the time you have revved out 3rd gear you are doing over 80mph. Cars are basically too fast to be enjoyed on a normal road without getting into stupid speeds.

Exactly. But it's not so much about congestion as it is for the fact that around where I live, the majority of roads are 30 MPH (let alone the ever-expanding 20 MPH zones). I live on the outskirts of the Greater London area (Carshalton, Epsom) and if I drive south, aside from the main highway (which is not very interesting, and it's 40 MPH anyway), all other roads are mostly 30 MPH and I keep hitting towns on the way (which kills joy), and if I do find a country road, it's usually not long enough and has either zero or negative shoulder (the two lanes are narrower than normal) and is surrounded by a wall of shrubs that obstruct visiblity on bends - visibility that's so essential on such a narrow road if you want to drive at speed... So there's not much opportunity to drive over 40 anywhere near where I live (at least I haven't found).
I've done a trip up north and to Wales, and I've driven on faster wider roads, so it was nicer, but I'm not sure whether the situation is really much different when you live in or near a city (ie where jobs are). But even then: if a car delivers experience at 40 MPH, it's even more of an experience at 70. So a slower car that can be "good" at 30 MPH -- in my book -- is a win-win.

[turboLP]

I started this thread just to see how my ideas about car enthusiast test in the real world. Thanks everyone for responding. This was enlightening.

As for car suggestions. I saw a lot Lotus mentions. Who knows, I might end up there eventually, but right now I'm wary of their reliability/ease of repair. I'm interested in Cayman - I imagine it's not Toyota reliable either (nor cheap to maintain), but it's probably easier to take care of in the end. I'm also interested in 370Z. And this thread planted a 996 911 seed in my head. But things like Caterham are too hardcore for me - I kinda want to have my cake and eat it too: a car that I can drive like a normal car with a passenger, and that would be the reason that I won't go down the classic car route. To be honest, a 2+2 would be ideal for me, but the choice is probably even more limited there. So I have 1st gen 86 on top of my mind. But if any of the aforementioned cars offer a better experience, then they win. Having said that, I don't have any experience of ownership of serious machinery, so I don't know how deep a money pit a serious sports car such as Lotus, Cayman or 996 could be.

One of the biggest concerns to me is ULEZ-compliability. I initially thought it was going to be a London-only thing, but now more cities have adopted it. I can imagine ULEZ zones will keep expanding. I am thinking about cars in long term (probably unwisely, but that's how I am). If I find what I like, I want to be able to keep it for the rest of my life, and I don't want to waste time/money on something that I'll HAVE to get rid of in a few years once they expand ULEZ or up the requirements (from Euro 3 to 4, for example). I don't want to get attached to something that I'll have to let go.

Edited by turboLP on Sunday 30th June 19:17

[Hoofy]

turboLP said:

I started this thread just to see how my ideas about car enthusiast test in the real world. Thanks everyone for responding. This was enlightening.

As for car suggestions. I saw a lot Lotus mentions. Who knows, I might end up there eventually, but right now I'm wary of their reliability/ease of repair. I'm interested in Cayman - I imagine it's not Toyota reliable either (nor cheap to maintain), but it's probably easier to take care of in the end. I'm also interested in 370Z. And this thread planted a 996 911 seed in my head. But things like Caterham are too hardcore for me - I kinda want to have my cake and eat it too: a car that I can drive like a normal car with a passenger, and that would be the reason that I won't go down the classic car route. To be honest, a 2+2 would be ideal for me, but the choice is probably even more limited there. So I have 1st gen 86 on top of my mind. But if any of the aforementioned cars offer a better experience, then they win. Having said that, I don't have any experience of ownership of serious machinery, so I don't know how deep a money pit a serious sports car such as Lotus, Cayman or 996 could be.

One of the biggest concerns to me is ULEZ-compliability. I initially thought it was going to be a London-only thing, but now more cities have adopted it. I can imagine ULEZ zones will keep expanding. I am thinking about cars in long term (probably unwisely, but that's how I am). If I find what I like, I want to be able to keep it for the rest of my life, and I don't want to waste time/money on something that I'll HAVE to get rid of in a few years once they expand ULEZ or up the requirements (from Euro 3 to 4, for example). I don't want to get attached to something that I'll have to let go.

Edited by turboLP on Sunday 30th June 19:17

A later 996 will be ULEZ-compliant and £415 VED (dunno what the Cayman or Lotus VED is but the 370Z will be £715 IIRC).

As for buying a 996, if you get one that's had a Hartech rebuild (and check that the IMS has been uprated) plus has refreshed suspension, it will be good for years to come. Try a manual 996 for yourself and see what they're like. I think my 996 Turbo with standard suspension is too firm for British war-torn ( ) roads. I'm forever darting left and right like I've had 3 too many.

[otolith]

turboLP said:

As for car suggestions. I saw a lot Lotus mentions. Who knows, I might end up there eventually, but right now I'm wary of their reliability/ease of repair. I'm interested in Cayman - I imagine it's not Toyota reliable either (nor cheap to maintain), but it's probably easier to take care of in the end.

Toyota engined Elises are reliable and cheap to fix - personally I would be much more concerned about a walletectomy from a Porsche.

[Hoofy]

otolith said:

turboLP said:

As for car suggestions. I saw a lot Lotus mentions. Who knows, I might end up there eventually, but right now I'm wary of their reliability/ease of repair. I'm interested in Cayman - I imagine it's not Toyota reliable either (nor cheap to maintain), but it's probably easier to take care of in the end.

Toyota engined Elises are reliable and cheap to fix - personally I would be much more concerned about a walletectomy from a Porsche.

Good point. Was speaking to someone at the Porsche meet at Brooklands Museum today and he said he spent £15k sorting out a coolant leak.

Anyway, 996 Turbo for sale. No leaks...

[Mr Tidy]

turboLP said:

Exactly. But it's not so much about congestion as it is for the fact that around where I live, the majority of roads are 30 MPH (let alone the ever-expanding 20 MPH zones). I live on the outskirts of the Greater London area (Carshalton, Epsom) and if I drive south, aside from the main highway (which is not very interesting, and it's 40 MPH anyway), all other roads are mostly 30 MPH and I keep hitting towns on the way (which kills joy), and if I do find a country road, it's usually not long enough and has either zero or negative shoulder (the two lanes are narrower than normal) and is surrounded by a wall of shrubs that obstruct visiblity on bends - visibility that's so essential on such a narrow road if you want to drive at speed... So there's not much opportunity to drive over 40 anywhere near where I live (at least I haven't found).
I've done a trip up north and to Wales, and I've driven on faster wider roads, so it was nicer, but I'm not sure whether the situation is really much different when you live in or near a city (ie where jobs are). But even then: if a car delivers experience at 40 MPH, it's even more of an experience at 70. So a slower car that can be "good" at 30 MPH -- in my book -- is a win-win.

I lived in Sutton until 2000 so I can understand your pain!

But the A217 from Belmont to Banstead (aka the Mad Mile) still has a 60 limit (even if it was NSL not so long ago). And the B2218 from Belmont to Banstead past the prison still had an NSL limit the last time I went there, although there aren't any bends.

Although most of Surrey is miserable, with average speed cameras on most of the A217 and A24.

So I'll be going back to Scotland for the fourth time in October.

[CABC]

otolith said:

turboLP said:

As for car suggestions. I saw a lot Lotus mentions. Who knows, I might end up there eventually, but right now I'm wary of their reliability/ease of repair. I'm interested in Cayman - I imagine it's not Toyota reliable either (nor cheap to maintain), but it's probably easier to take care of in the end.

Toyota engined Elises are reliable and cheap to fix - personally I would be much more concerned about a walletectomy from a Porsche.

lot of bs on ph about ownership costs. "aspirational" brands enjoy a lot of latitude.

[Shnozz]

CABC said:

otolith said:

turboLP said:

As for car suggestions. I saw a lot Lotus mentions. Who knows, I might end up there eventually, but right now I'm wary of their reliability/ease of repair. I'm interested in Cayman - I imagine it's not Toyota reliable either (nor cheap to maintain), but it's probably easier to take care of in the end.

Toyota engined Elises are reliable and cheap to fix - personally I would be much more concerned about a walletectomy from a Porsche.

lot of bs on ph about ownership costs. "aspirational" brands enjoy a lot of latitude.

My Loti have been the most reliable and cheapest to run of any of my toys. The Porsche was vastly more expensive. And when my mates Cayman went bang and left him with a £12k engine bill, I decided to sell mine on.

[BertBert]

The very best sports car that I have owned was my 96GT3 RS. Not because it was fast, but the handling, reactivity, sportiness were fabulous at all speeds. I used to use it for my daily commute from Epsom to Woking. It was just so fabulously tactile at every movement of the controls. Steering, braking, accelerating. Each input made me feel fab - even turning out of the drive onto the road with the slight chunky-chunk noise of the diff was fabulous.

Caterham does it too, but it's more compromise of course. Every time I went to B&C to test drive the Lotus I thought I wanted - Elise, Exige, (modern) Europa, Evora, I always went in my Caterham. The drive home in the Caterham made the Lotuses feel a bit lardy and unresponsive so I didn't buy one.

I went to my first test drive for my first caterham in my MX5 (Mark I), it felt like a lardy boat on the way home!

[otolith]

Mr Tidy said:

I lived in Sutton until 2000 so I can understand your pain!

But the A217 from Belmont to Banstead (aka the Mad Mile) still has a 60 limit (even if it was NSL not so long ago). And the B2218 from Belmont to Banstead past the prison still had an NSL limit the last time I went there, although there aren't any bends.

Although most of Surrey is miserable, with average speed cameras on most of the A217 and A24.

So I'll be going back to Scotland for the fourth time in October.

There are better roads out past Reigate, if you go looking for them. Lots downgraded to 40, but not all.

[John D.]

turboLP said:

braddo said:

OP, where are you based? North America?

I'm in the UK

I thought he was in the States too reading the OP for some reason.

ETA - because he drove a Miata!

Edited by John D. on Monday 1st July 09:35

[andburg]

John D. said:

turboLP said:

braddo said:

OP, where are you based? North America?

I'm in the UK

I thought he was in the States too reading the OP for some reason.

ETA - because he drove a Miata!

Edited by John D. on Monday 1st July 09:35

yeah miata
econohatchback

lots of non-uk terms its almost like the post was written by chatgpt

[John D.]

andburg said:

yeah miata
econohatchback

lots of non-uk terms its almost like the post was written by chatgpt

Same thought crossed my mind.

Interesting debate anyway!

[white_goodman]

turboLP said:

I started this thread just to see how my ideas about car enthusiast test in the real world. Thanks everyone for responding. This was enlightening.

As for car suggestions. I saw a lot Lotus mentions. Who knows, I might end up there eventually, but right now I'm wary of their reliability/ease of repair. I'm interested in Cayman - I imagine it's not Toyota reliable either (nor cheap to maintain), but it's probably easier to take care of in the end. I'm also interested in 370Z. And this thread planted a 996 911 seed in my head. But things like Caterham are too hardcore for me - I kinda want to have my cake and eat it too: a car that I can drive like a normal car with a passenger, and that would be the reason that I won't go down the classic car route. To be honest, a 2+2 would be ideal for me, but the choice is probably even more limited there. So I have 1st gen 86 on top of my mind. But if any of the aforementioned cars offer a better experience, then they win. Having said that, I don't have any experience of ownership of serious machinery, so I don't know how deep a money pit a serious sports car such as Lotus, Cayman or 996 could be.

One of the biggest concerns to me is ULEZ-compliability. I initially thought it was going to be a London-only thing, but now more cities have adopted it. I can imagine ULEZ zones will keep expanding. I am thinking about cars in long term (probably unwisely, but that's how I am). If I find what I like, I want to be able to keep it for the rest of my life, and I don't want to waste time/money on something that I'll HAVE to get rid of in a few years once they expand ULEZ or up the requirements (from Euro 3 to 4, for example). I don't want to get attached to something that I'll have to let go.

Edited by turboLP on Sunday 30th June 19:17

Had an NB MX5 as my 4th car (only a year old at the time) and to be honest to drive I didn't much like it (but it was pretty and I loved the idea of owning a "flash" convertible sports car at 24 years old). I thought the engine was a bit of a "boat anchor" out of a family hatchback that wasn't particularly keen to rev and sounded harsh when I did and the handling wasn't great. I found that mine was more prone to understeer than oversteer and generally too much grip and not enough power (16 inch wheels). Nice gearbox, 100% reliable and easy to live with though.

So I sold it after about a year of ownership and bought an E30 325i Convertible. Objectively worse handling but more steering feel, a lovely silky smooth straight six engine that sounded fantastic and definitely more power than grip on 15s!

I also found my 205 GTi, Corrado VR6 and newage Impreza WRX a more enjoyable driving experience than the NB on the open road.

If you're set on a "sports car" though, the ND2 MX5/GR86 sound pretty perfect for something 'modern". Relatively light, manual gearboxes, revvy NA engines etc and yet should be fairly easy to live with. Not tried a GR86 yet but I loved the GT86 I test drove in spite of the so-so engine, it's the closest I've experienced for feel to an older car but the GR86 with the extra power and without the torque dip just seems like it would be the complete package.

But maybe go with something older. Would have loved an Elise when I got my NB but way out of budget but I wonder if I should have gone with an NA MX5/mk3 MR2/6-pot Z3 instead. I regret not owning a mid-engined car when they were still affordable. A 350Z/370Z is worth a look too? More reliable/cheaper to run than a Porsche, lusty NA V6 and quite "raw" by all accounts.

But playing "devil's advocate", maybe a sports car is not what you want at all. We mock the YT generation for buying supercars and driving them around London but maybe that's not so silly after all. You can hardly use a fraction of their performance on any UK road but I bet you get a sense of occassion even driving at 30mph in them.

Not suggesting you buy a supercar but a V8 SL/SLK, XK/F-Type/Mustang GT would still give you a warm glow/sense of occassion driving at low speeds I think and an automatic transmission works better for urban driving. More expensive to run certainly but more "special" at low speeds.

Conversely, something like a Supercharged MINI Cooper S or Fiesta ST would be quite fun for bombing around at lower speeds I think? Practical and easy to live with too and does RWD really matter?

Edited by white_goodman on Monday 1st July 18:08

Edited by white_goodman on Monday 1st July 18:09

[Oilchange]

Only advice I'd give is avoid anything heavy as you are after a sportscar experience and a lightweight thing will give you the feel. Then you can go heavy and will have the seat of the pants background to determine if it's sporty or just a cabbage in a frock.

[braddo]

Elises are not money pits - there isnt much that can go wrong. They go through brakes and tyres more slowly than a mx5.

Nearly all are ulez exempt (with a certificate from lotus for an older one). They are an easy treat to drive including around london.

[giveitfish]

braddo said:

Elises are not money pits - there isnt much that can go wrong. They go through brakes and tyres more slowly than a mx5.

…mmmm, that depends! Let’s be honest with ourselves - if you like everything to work and you do more than a few hundred miles a year they can happily run up big bills. Not as big as a Porsche perhaps, but even though they are simple cars they are time consuming to work on and unique parts are expensive.

My experience:

Elise S1: £4k in 5 years on maintenance and repairs. Did include a suspension refresh, but they’ll all need one by now if they’ve not had one.

Elise S3: £2k headlamp replacement(!), aircon repair well over £1k

Edited by giveitfish on Monday 1st July 23:09

[CABC]

giveitfish said:

…mmmm, that depends! Let’s be honest with ourselves - if you like everything to work and you do more than a few hundred miles a year they can happily run up big bills. Not as big as a Porsche perhaps, but even though they are simple cars they are time consuming to work on and unique parts are expensive.

My experience:

Elise S1: £4k in 5 years on maintenance and repairs. Did include a suspension refresh, but they’ll all need one by now if they’ve not had one.

Elise S3: £2k headlamp replacement(!), aircon repair well over £1k

Edited by giveitfish on Monday 1st July 23:09

Good god 4K in 5 years. If your post was intended to be contrarian I suggest you don’t buy a Porsche or AM.

[Shnozz]

CABC said:

giveitfish said:

…mmmm, that depends! Let’s be honest with ourselves - if you like everything to work and you do more than a few hundred miles a year they can happily run up big bills. Not as big as a Porsche perhaps, but even though they are simple cars they are time consuming to work on and unique parts are expensive.

My experience:

Elise S1: £4k in 5 years on maintenance and repairs. Did include a suspension refresh, but they’ll all need one by now if they’ve not had one.

Elise S3: £2k headlamp replacement(!), aircon repair well over £1k

Edited by giveitfish on Monday 1st July 23:09

Good god 4K in 5 years. If your post was intended to be contrarian I suggest you don’t buy a Porsche or AM.

Indeed. My experience.

Elise’s/exiges similar figure to give it fish.

Porsche Boxster S - £4.3k in one big service (specialist not OPC too).