The curse of the 2nd Red Bull seat
Discussion
Red Bull seem incapable of fielding a team of two competitive drivers.
It can't just be drivers, can it?
Lawson has been very competitive in the past. Perez was no slouch. You then have Albon who continues to show his speed and prowess. Same with Gasly. Danny Ric' was touted as Australia's next WDC at one point.
The only time in their history when I can recall them fielding two drivers with as near equal competitive effect was Coulthard / Webber which was , what, mid/late 00s?
Is there something that's baked into the Red Bull DNA at a management or engineering level that causes this? I know that they have Marko doing his thing but you would presume that given the length of time this has been going on, some intervention would have taken place by now so, is there something else at play?
It can't just be drivers, can it?
Lawson has been very competitive in the past. Perez was no slouch. You then have Albon who continues to show his speed and prowess. Same with Gasly. Danny Ric' was touted as Australia's next WDC at one point.
The only time in their history when I can recall them fielding two drivers with as near equal competitive effect was Coulthard / Webber which was , what, mid/late 00s?
Is there something that's baked into the Red Bull DNA at a management or engineering level that causes this? I know that they have Marko doing his thing but you would presume that given the length of time this has been going on, some intervention would have taken place by now so, is there something else at play?
StevieBee said:
Red Bull seem incapable of fielding a team of two competitive drivers.
It can't just be drivers, can it?
Lawson has been very competitive in the past. Perez was no slouch. You then have Albon who continues to show his speed and prowess. Same with Gasly. Danny Ric' was touted as Australia's next WDC at one point.
The only time in their history when I can recall them fielding two drivers with as near equal competitive effect was Coulthard / Webber which was , what, mid/late 00s?
Is there something that's baked into the Red Bull DNA at a management or engineering level that causes this? I know that they have Marko doing his thing but you would presume that given the length of time this has been going on, some intervention would have taken place by now so, is there something else at play?
Webber / Vettel was pretty tight.It can't just be drivers, can it?
Lawson has been very competitive in the past. Perez was no slouch. You then have Albon who continues to show his speed and prowess. Same with Gasly. Danny Ric' was touted as Australia's next WDC at one point.
The only time in their history when I can recall them fielding two drivers with as near equal competitive effect was Coulthard / Webber which was , what, mid/late 00s?
Is there something that's baked into the Red Bull DNA at a management or engineering level that causes this? I know that they have Marko doing his thing but you would presume that given the length of time this has been going on, some intervention would have taken place by now so, is there something else at play?
Ricciardo was fast but became somewhat fragile when the spotty teen arrived.
Would love to see if Alonso could tame the RB in a similar way that Max can.
Max is a blessing and a curse it seems. He's led them down a development path that makes the car too nervous for those at his high level.
Apparently Perez was telling them this 18 months ago but it was dismissed as excuses as they had a dominant car and it was him failing to get results.
Getting rid of Lawson and putting anyone other than a veteran who can give balanced feedback is likely to produce the same result.
Apparently Perez was telling them this 18 months ago but it was dismissed as excuses as they had a dominant car and it was him failing to get results.
Getting rid of Lawson and putting anyone other than a veteran who can give balanced feedback is likely to produce the same result.
StevieBee said:
Red Bull seem incapable of fielding a team of two competitive drivers.
It can't just be drivers, can it?
Lawson has been very competitive in the past. Perez was no slouch. You then have Albon who continues to show his speed and prowess. Same with Gasly. Danny Ric' was touted as Australia's next WDC at one point.
The only time in their history when I can recall them fielding two drivers with as near equal competitive effect was Coulthard / Webber which was , what, mid/late 00s?
Is there something that's baked into the Red Bull DNA at a management or engineering level that causes this? I know that they have Marko doing his thing but you would presume that given the length of time this has been going on, some intervention would have taken place by now so, is there something else at play?
Huh? Ricciardo was definitely competitive with Verstappen while at Red Bull. It's only after he left that it became obvious whatever he was able to do at red bull wasn't with him any longer especially once he'd moved to mclaren....It can't just be drivers, can it?
Lawson has been very competitive in the past. Perez was no slouch. You then have Albon who continues to show his speed and prowess. Same with Gasly. Danny Ric' was touted as Australia's next WDC at one point.
The only time in their history when I can recall them fielding two drivers with as near equal competitive effect was Coulthard / Webber which was , what, mid/late 00s?
Is there something that's baked into the Red Bull DNA at a management or engineering level that causes this? I know that they have Marko doing his thing but you would presume that given the length of time this has been going on, some intervention would have taken place by now so, is there something else at play?
I think its more since Max turned up. Previously Webber kept Vettel pretty honest until age caught up with him, Riccardo and Vettel was pretty close with Vettel finding himself the lesser. Then Max and Riccardo was extremely close arguably in Riccardo favour before he left over money and perceived probably rightly that they supported Max.
Ever since anyone next to Max has largely been treated pretty poorly with a clear bias towards Max. They seem to not care about the second seat all that much unless you are completely miles off.
I sometimes wonder if its the nature of their academy, if they are looking for the next Max anything less is a waste of time in their eyes. So just keep putting talent next to him until someone makes him bleed. Utterly ruthless with no time for support or empathy, good enough or not is the only thing that matters.
You could argue it makes sense Alonso, Hamilton, Verstrepen etc all announced themselves to the sport by hitting the ground running and showing they where the next big thing very quickly. If thats the level of driver they are single minded looking for you can see why they don't give anyone much time.
Ever since anyone next to Max has largely been treated pretty poorly with a clear bias towards Max. They seem to not care about the second seat all that much unless you are completely miles off.
I sometimes wonder if its the nature of their academy, if they are looking for the next Max anything less is a waste of time in their eyes. So just keep putting talent next to him until someone makes him bleed. Utterly ruthless with no time for support or empathy, good enough or not is the only thing that matters.
You could argue it makes sense Alonso, Hamilton, Verstrepen etc all announced themselves to the sport by hitting the ground running and showing they where the next big thing very quickly. If thats the level of driver they are single minded looking for you can see why they don't give anyone much time.
Ricciardo was competitive, but perhaps he knew they were focusing the development of the car around Max and that he'd have to fit in and make do with driving car built around another driver, hence the move for money and the promise of a more supportive team (not that it worked out in the end)
I think it's in the nature of an F1 driver to have total confidence in themselves until they don't and you're not going to be fast in a car you don't trust at those speeds and G forces.
It would be great to see an overlay of their pole laps and see the difference and then hear the why from each of them, but then I doubt they would let us in the debrief session.
I think it's in the nature of an F1 driver to have total confidence in themselves until they don't and you're not going to be fast in a car you don't trust at those speeds and G forces.
It would be great to see an overlay of their pole laps and see the difference and then hear the why from each of them, but then I doubt they would let us in the debrief session.
StevieBee said:
Lawson has been very competitive in the past.
When was that? His f2/3 results don’t paint a picture of anything other than a midfielder with decent backing/management. RB don’t want an equal driver pairing. The no2 seat is for someone who can be deployed to aid their no1 driver including under filling the car so it won’t finish a race. Same in vettel’s era
Lawson looks broken after two races, but I don’t get why he got the seat ahead of Tsunoda. The cynic in me suspects it suits Max to have all the attention on him and that he engineered the appointment, but I don’t think he’s that insecure.
There can’t be many teams over the years where the disparity between drivers has been so great, which leads me to figure that something is fundamentally wrong at RB, it can’t be a happy place to be work. All that said, I think Max has been impressive so far in all respects, which shows that he can use his head when he needs to.
There can’t be many teams over the years where the disparity between drivers has been so great, which leads me to figure that something is fundamentally wrong at RB, it can’t be a happy place to be work. All that said, I think Max has been impressive so far in all respects, which shows that he can use his head when he needs to.
WilsonWilson said:
Didn't Schumacher do the same thing at Benetton? Alesi and Berger thought the car was broken on their first drive of the championship winning car.
There is a view that cars on the knife edge of control are the fastest when in the hands of a supremely talented driver. You could make the car easier to drive by dulling some of its characteristics but you will never make it faster by doing so.After he tested the 1995 Ferrari 412T2, Schumacher said that it had been perfectly capable of winning the title if only they had dialled out the understeer.
ralphrj said:
There is a view that cars on the knife edge of control are the fastest when in the hands of a supremely talented driver. You could make the car easier to drive by dulling some of its characteristics but you will never make it faster by doing so.
Well the other teams manage to make a car fast enough to win a championship that both drivers are competitive in, the RB strategy works if your lead driver is way out in front but not when others are as fast or faster, when it gets close you need two drivers. Think it's becoming more and more apparent that Max's ability to drive an unpredictable car has masked some underlying issues of the RBR cars over the past years and the path of development it's been on. By his own admission it's not how he wants the car either so it would appear that the path they're on is not one they can easily deviate from without wholesale changes.
Next season will likely reset the balance regardless if Max stays or not, especially with their learnings on the current car. If they have a competitive second driver it would probably lead to a more balanced development too, which (and big if) if they can work together and keep the car in the window could lead to another period of RBR dominance. That said, ideal candidate for seat 2 in the here and now, may not be the best choice next season, although RBR have been anything but slow to initiate driver changes.
For this season that car is not likely to be great for any driver and with the focus on 2026 the chances any of the core problems with that car being resolved are nil. They'll just want to find someone who can get it in the points help the limited development this season to find tweaks and a way for Max to rag/nurse it to consistent podium finishes and potentially another title.
In terms of just competitive drivers, a lot of teams struggle with this when at the sharp end even in the teams that have pulled in 2 big names.
Next season will likely reset the balance regardless if Max stays or not, especially with their learnings on the current car. If they have a competitive second driver it would probably lead to a more balanced development too, which (and big if) if they can work together and keep the car in the window could lead to another period of RBR dominance. That said, ideal candidate for seat 2 in the here and now, may not be the best choice next season, although RBR have been anything but slow to initiate driver changes.
For this season that car is not likely to be great for any driver and with the focus on 2026 the chances any of the core problems with that car being resolved are nil. They'll just want to find someone who can get it in the points help the limited development this season to find tweaks and a way for Max to rag/nurse it to consistent podium finishes and potentially another title.
In terms of just competitive drivers, a lot of teams struggle with this when at the sharp end even in the teams that have pulled in 2 big names.
Still puzzling what they do at red bull. Max is miles and miles and miles faster and better than everyone else. So if they design a more easily driven car he may only win by 5 seconds instead of 30 seconds.
But they would rather someone in the other car scores less as the cars undriveable.
Its like the selfish t
t at work who knows everything so nobody permanantly fixes any of the constant problems they solve.
Then one day they go on holiday or resign or worse still go belly up.
But they would rather someone in the other car scores less as the cars undriveable.
Its like the selfish t
t at work who knows everything so nobody permanantly fixes any of the constant problems they solve.Then one day they go on holiday or resign or worse still go belly up.
Blue62 said:
Lawson looks broken after two races, but I don’t get why he got the seat ahead of Tsunoda.
Tsunoda is a Honda driver.Red Bull want Red Bull drivers in their car - they always have.
Trouble is that, since Verstappen, they've not produced anyone truly top level. Hence signing De Vries, Ricciardo coming back, etc.
shirt said:
RB don’t want an equal driver pairing. The no2 seat is for someone who can be deployed to aid their no1 driver including under filling the car so it won’t finish a race. Same in vettel’s era
They don't want equality but your number 2 driver can't aid your number 1 driver if the number 2 is last......They need someone who can be faster than everyone else but not Max.
The trouble with that is, I think, they've gone down a development path which has created a car which Max can get a tune out of but other drivers can't.
Whilst Max is still getting podiums and wins the problem is less severe and they can close their eyes and keep cycling junior drivers through the other car.
But it will get to the stage where even Max can't deal with it - we're arguably already there.
I said on another thread that this situation reminds me of Marc Marquez in MotoGP when he was at Honda. He was the freak who could ride a poor bike to victory whilst his team-mates were in no-mans-land.
However, they reached the point where even he couldn't ride the thing and ended up as, literal, backmarkers.
A more experienced driver may be able to manage the tyres better than Lawson - ironically, that was what Perez was good at. But I still think that whoever they reasonably put in that car will have the same struggles as Perez did last year.
I have never really bought the whole car developed for a driver thing.
My understanding has always been the cars are designed to be as fast humanly possible and its the drivers problem to figure out how to drive it. Often the fastest set up isn't what the drivers actually want but the best figure it out and the slightly less good (all are phenomenal by normal standards) dial it back a bit to be more comfortable but ultimately not its peak theoretical performance.
Are 300 designers really sat there making design decision based on what suits a driver? I doubt it. Surely they work towards ultimate performance and very little else. If it understeers like pig on the way to being half a second quicker than everyone else then thats the way it is.
I am happy to be told different by those that no more though, just never made sense to me.
My understanding has always been the cars are designed to be as fast humanly possible and its the drivers problem to figure out how to drive it. Often the fastest set up isn't what the drivers actually want but the best figure it out and the slightly less good (all are phenomenal by normal standards) dial it back a bit to be more comfortable but ultimately not its peak theoretical performance.
Are 300 designers really sat there making design decision based on what suits a driver? I doubt it. Surely they work towards ultimate performance and very little else. If it understeers like pig on the way to being half a second quicker than everyone else then thats the way it is.
I am happy to be told different by those that no more though, just never made sense to me.
Muzzer79 said:
Blue62 said:
Lawson looks broken after two races, but I don’t get why he got the seat ahead of Tsunoda.
Tsunoda is a Honda driver.Red Bull want Red Bull drivers in their car - they always have.
Trouble is that, since Verstappen, they've not produced anyone truly top level. Hence signing De Vries, Ricciardo coming back, etc.
Wills2 said:
ralphrj said:
There is a view that cars on the knife edge of control are the fastest when in the hands of a supremely talented driver. You could make the car easier to drive by dulling some of its characteristics but you will never make it faster by doing so.
Well the other teams manage to make a car fast enough to win a championship that both drivers are competitive in, the RB strategy works if your lead driver is way out in front but not when others are as fast or faster, when it gets close you need two drivers. You need 2 drivers if your goal is to win the Constructors Championship.
Isn't the point of having a sister team like the Racing Bulls that you use it as an opportunity for drivers to cut their teeth in F1. If they look promising then they get promoted to the A team? Lawson came in with a few races in the Alpha Tauri and then jumped into the big league ahead of a driver who had a bunch of F1 experience.
I think Lawson did a pretty decent job with his handful of races. The promotion to the A team was perhaps a little premature.
I think Lawson did a pretty decent job with his handful of races. The promotion to the A team was perhaps a little premature.
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff