Who allegedly leaked Horner investigation emails and whatsap
Discussion
I suppose we could narrow it down by considering only those who Horny has pissed off over the last couple of decades 
Personally I suspect that someone who has a problem with Horny having too much influence caught wind of an upset between him and his PA and fanned the flames a little to encourage the making of the initial complaint (which should have been made), and when it was initially swept away by the internal investigation (yes, by an independent investigator - but still internal), they ramped up the attack by releasing the messages.
There's a lot of money and influence at play here, various parties involved that publicly display quite different ideas about how things should be be run. The messages were shared as an attempt to de-throne Horny by someone who wanted him gone, or at least put back in his box, for whatever reason.
They underestimated his superpower though. He can't see through walls or reverse time by flying around the world backwards, but he is cocky and self assured enough to get obviously caught out, but act as if he hasn't and simply crack on as if everything is normal. He just needed to convince the Mrs to come along to a couple of GP weekends to cement how normal everything is. That must have been a challenging conversation for him, having to apologise to her and at the same time trying to convince her that she needs to fly out to fix his personal image... "Yes dear, I can see that you're awfully annoyed at me right now, but I am a big deal and you're simply going to have to get over it and give me a kiss and a cuddle in public"
Personally I suspect that someone who has a problem with Horny having too much influence caught wind of an upset between him and his PA and fanned the flames a little to encourage the making of the initial complaint (which should have been made), and when it was initially swept away by the internal investigation (yes, by an independent investigator - but still internal), they ramped up the attack by releasing the messages.
There's a lot of money and influence at play here, various parties involved that publicly display quite different ideas about how things should be be run. The messages were shared as an attempt to de-throne Horny by someone who wanted him gone, or at least put back in his box, for whatever reason.
They underestimated his superpower though. He can't see through walls or reverse time by flying around the world backwards, but he is cocky and self assured enough to get obviously caught out, but act as if he hasn't and simply crack on as if everything is normal. He just needed to convince the Mrs to come along to a couple of GP weekends to cement how normal everything is. That must have been a challenging conversation for him, having to apologise to her and at the same time trying to convince her that she needs to fly out to fix his personal image... "Yes dear, I can see that you're awfully annoyed at me right now, but I am a big deal and you're simply going to have to get over it and give me a kiss and a cuddle in public"
TheDeuce said:
There's a lot of money and influence at play here, various parties involved that publicly display quite different ideas about how things should be be run. The messages were shared as an attempt to de-throne Horny by someone who wanted him gone, or at least put back in his box, for whatever reason.
They underestimated his superpower though. He can't see through walls or reverse time by flying around the world backwards, but he is cocky and self assured enough to get obviously caught out, but act as if he hasn't and simply crack on as if everything is normal.
We've raked over this plenty at the time, but worth summarising in retrospect. Red Bull Racing was facing a power struggle after the passing of Dietrich Mateschitz, with a contingent trying to convince the heir to his share of Red Bull (his son Mark) to sell some or all of the racing team to Porsche, and certain individuals were working in the background to make this happen (and had recruited Oliver Mintzlaff to handle the deal).They underestimated his superpower though. He can't see through walls or reverse time by flying around the world backwards, but he is cocky and self assured enough to get obviously caught out, but act as if he hasn't and simply crack on as if everything is normal.
Christian Horner got wind of this attempted coup and sought the backing of Red Bull's other (and majority) shareholder Chalerm Yoovidhya to prevent the sell-off and keep Red Bull Racing fully independent. A lot of people had spent a lot of time setting up deals in the background in the hope of a payday and were pretty pee'd off when it all ground to a halt (marked publicly by the end of the talks with Porsche and RBR instead pursuing a deal to brand their own in-house 2026 engine as a Ford) and figured that ousting Horner one way or another would put their dastardly plans back on-track.
The result was the airing of Red Bull's dirty laundry in public, which ended none-too-well for any of the parties involved and did not achieve the desired outcome of the instigators.
The rest is history.
Edited by Evercross on Tuesday 11th March 15:46
anonymous_user said:
...yet
I think that RBR's foreseeable future is now pretty much set in stone, and it lies nowhere near Porsche and the people who stood to gain from that. All the bad-faith acting achieved was to poison the well.anonymous_user said:
& also glosses over Horner's own little side hustle to buy RBR.
...which I equate to tenant's right-to-buy seeing as Horner pretty much single-handedly built the team up from humble beginnings (from Arden, through the purchase of Stewart Ford/Jaguar, bringing in Newey with the support of David Coulthard etc. etc). What the others were doing were trying to sell the house out from underneath him.Horner's alleged personal life might be repugnant and you might not like his personality, but there's no denying he's has proved his worth as a race-team manager and the people who tried to sell him and Red Bull Racing out for their own greed ultimately deserved to lose the war.
Edited by Evercross on Tuesday 11th March 16:07
Evercross said:
...which I equate to tenant's right-to-buy seeing as Horner pretty much single-handedly built the team up from humble beginnings (from Arden, through the purchase of Stewart Ford/Jaguar, bringing in Newey with the support of David Coulthard etc. etc). What the others were doing were trying to sell the house out from underneath him.
Horner's alleged personal life might be repugnant and you might not like his personality, but there's no denying he's has proved his worth as a race-team manager and the people who tried to sell him and Red Bull Racing out for their own greed ultimately deserved to lose the war.
The problem was that his personal life bled into professional life as the alleged issue was with an RBR employee. Horner's alleged personal life might be repugnant and you might not like his personality, but there's no denying he's has proved his worth as a race-team manager and the people who tried to sell him and Red Bull Racing out for their own greed ultimately deserved to lose the war.
Edited by Evercross on Tuesday 11th March 16:07
Evercross said:
anonymous_user said:
...yet
I think that RBR's foreseeable future is now pretty much set in stone, and it lies nowhere near Porsche and the people who stood to gain from that. All the bad-faith acting achieved was to poison the well.anonymous_user said:
& also glosses over Horner's own little side hustle to buy RBR.
...which I equate to tenant's right-to-buy seeing as Horner pretty much single-handedly built the team up from humble beginnings (from Arden, through the purchase of Stewart Ford/Jaguar, bringing in Newey with the support of David Coulthard etc. etc). What the others were doing were trying to sell the house out from underneath him.Horner's alleged personal life might be repugnant and you might not like his personality, but there's no denying he's has proved his worth as a race-team manager and the people who tried to sell him and Red Bull Racing out for their own greed ultimately deserved to lose the war.
Edited by Evercross on Tuesday 11th March 16:07
if you were being unkind, you might even suggest that Horner took full advantage of Mateschitz's declining health for his own gain- that might also explain the nature of the subsequent shenanigans
anonymous_user said:
not sure i'd call anything bankrolled by Dieter Mateschitz as humble ...& no matter how you paint it, Horner was an employee, employed by Dieter- the same Dieter Mateschitz who instigated negotiating with Porsche- with others merely trying to carry out his wishes after his death
Conversely Ron Dennis was sacked by his own board and neither is money a guarantee of success but it does help.InformationSuperHighway said:
Evercross said:
...which I equate to tenant's right-to-buy seeing as Horner pretty much single-handedly built the team up from humble beginnings (from Arden, through the purchase of Stewart Ford/Jaguar, bringing in Newey with the support of David Coulthard etc. etc). What the others were doing were trying to sell the house out from underneath him.
Horner's alleged personal life might be repugnant and you might not like his personality, but there's no denying he's has proved his worth as a race-team manager and the people who tried to sell him and Red Bull Racing out for their own greed ultimately deserved to lose the war.
The problem was that his personal life bled into professional life as the alleged issue was with an RBR employee. Horner's alleged personal life might be repugnant and you might not like his personality, but there's no denying he's has proved his worth as a race-team manager and the people who tried to sell him and Red Bull Racing out for their own greed ultimately deserved to lose the war.
Edited by Evercross on Tuesday 11th March 16:07
Evercross said:
TheDeuce said:
There's a lot of money and influence at play here, various parties involved that publicly display quite different ideas about how things should be be run. The messages were shared as an attempt to de-throne Horny by someone who wanted him gone, or at least put back in his box, for whatever reason.
They underestimated his superpower though. He can't see through walls or reverse time by flying around the world backwards, but he is cocky and self assured enough to get obviously caught out, but act as if he hasn't and simply crack on as if everything is normal.
We've raked over this plenty at the time, but worth summarising in retrospect. Red Bull Racing was facing a power struggle after the passing of Dietrich Mateschitz, with a contingent trying to convince the heir to his share of Red Bull (his son Mark) to sell some or all of the racing team to Porsche, and certain individuals were working in the background to make this happen (and had recruited Oliver Mintzlaff to handle the deal).They underestimated his superpower though. He can't see through walls or reverse time by flying around the world backwards, but he is cocky and self assured enough to get obviously caught out, but act as if he hasn't and simply crack on as if everything is normal.
Christian Horner got wind of this attempted coup and sought the backing of Red Bull's other (and majority) shareholder Chalerm Yoovidhya to prevent the sell-off and keep Red Bull Racing fully independent. A lot of people had spent a lot of time setting up deals in the background in the hope of a payday and were pretty pee'd off when it all ground to a halt (marked publicly by the end of the talks with Porsche and RBR instead pursuing a deal to brand their own in-house 2026 engine as a Ford) and figured that ousting Horner one way or another would put their dastardly plans back on-track.
The result was the airing of Red Bull's dirty laundry in public, which ended none-too-well for any of the parties involved and did not achieve the desired outcome of the instigators.
The rest is history.
Edited by Evercross on Tuesday 11th March 15:46
MissChief said:
My understanding was that said ‘independent’ party who investigated the claims was actually a lawyer from London employed by Yoovidhya, who, of course, was Horners ally in the battle for ownership of RB. Hardly someone without bias I’m sure you’ll agree.
Missing the point (and this is feeling like deja vu). The question was who leaked the claims and why. Containing them afterwards was a different issue.Revisiting an earlier point....
anonymous_user said:
Horner was an employee, employed by Dieter- the same Dieter Mateschitz who instigated negotiating with Porsche- with others merely trying to carry out his wishes after his death.
It may have been Deiter's wish to sell to Porsche, but Mateschitz snr. was a MINORITY shareholder in Red Bull so it wasn't in his giving alone to decide to sell to Porsche. It is easy to forget that the Mateschitz dynasty only owns 49% of Red Bull as Dieter was for so long the public face of the brand.Horner has the backing of the majority Red Bull shareholder and ultimately that was the problem the vultures had.
Edited by Evercross on Wednesday 12th March 07:23
Evercross said:
TheDeuce said:
There's a lot of money and influence at play here, various parties involved that publicly display quite different ideas about how things should be be run. The messages were shared as an attempt to de-throne Horny by someone who wanted him gone, or at least put back in his box, for whatever reason.
They underestimated his superpower though. He can't see through walls or reverse time by flying around the world backwards, but he is cocky and self assured enough to get obviously caught out, but act as if he hasn't and simply crack on as if everything is normal.
We've raked over this plenty at the time, but worth summarising in retrospect. Red Bull Racing was facing a power struggle after the passing of Dietrich Mateschitz, with a contingent trying to convince the heir to his share of Red Bull (his son Mark) to sell some or all of the racing team to Porsche, and certain individuals were working in the background to make this happen (and had recruited Oliver Mintzlaff to handle the deal).They underestimated his superpower though. He can't see through walls or reverse time by flying around the world backwards, but he is cocky and self assured enough to get obviously caught out, but act as if he hasn't and simply crack on as if everything is normal.
Christian Horner got wind of this attempted coup and sought the backing of Red Bull's other (and majority) shareholder Chalerm Yoovidhya to prevent the sell-off and keep Red Bull Racing fully independent. A lot of people had spent a lot of time setting up deals in the background in the hope of a payday and were pretty pee'd off when it all ground to a halt (marked publicly by the end of the talks with Porsche and RBR instead pursuing a deal to brand their own in-house 2026 engine as a Ford) and figured that ousting Horner one way or another would put their dastardly plans back on-track.
The result was the airing of Red Bull's dirty laundry in public, which ended none-too-well for any of the parties involved and did not achieve the desired outcome of the instigators.
The rest is history.
Edited by Evercross on Tuesday 11th March 15:46
Why is the source of the emails of interest? It matters not. They were not denied. I assume they were meant to damage the company. There is the distinct possibility there are others, and their lack of release could well be a threat. And that's about it.
It's a shame we'll never know what went on, especially as it leads to lots of fanciful suggestions. It's fun though. Horner squirming has got to be the off-season highlight, but the racing starts this weekend. I know I'm not going to know anything for certain, but what has been revealed is the poor crisis management of RB. They fumbled this one, and big time.
On the other hand, I've a certain admiration for the complainant in all this.
Evercross said:
MissChief said:
My understanding was that said ‘independent’ party who investigated the claims was actually a lawyer from London employed by Yoovidhya, who, of course, was Horners ally in the battle for ownership of RB. Hardly someone without bias I’m sure you’ll agree.
Missing the point (and this is feeling like deja vu). The question was who leaked the claims and why. Containing them afterwards was a different issue.Revisiting an earlier point....
TheDeuce said:
I suppose we could narrow it down by considering only those who Horny has pissed off over the last couple of decades
Personally I suspect that someone who has a problem with Horny having too much influence caught wind of an upset between him and his PA and fanned the flames a little to encourage the making of the initial complaint (which should have been made), and when it was initially swept away by the internal investigation (yes, by an independent investigator - but still internal), they ramped up the attack by releasing the messages.
There's a lot of money and influence at play here, various parties involved that publicly display quite different ideas about how things should be be run. The messages were shared as an attempt to de-throne Horny by someone who wanted him gone, or at least put back in his box, for whatever reason.
They underestimated his superpower though. He can't see through walls or reverse time by flying around the world backwards, but he is cocky and self assured enough to get obviously caught out, but act as if he hasn't and simply crack on as if everything is normal. He just needed to convince the Mrs to come along to a couple of GP weekends to cement how normal everything is. That must have been a challenging conversation for him, having to apologise to her and at the same time trying to convince her that she needs to fly out to fix his personal image... "Yes dear, I can see that you're awfully annoyed at me right now, but I am a big deal and you're simply going to have to get over it and give me a kiss and a cuddle in public"
This.Personally I suspect that someone who has a problem with Horny having too much influence caught wind of an upset between him and his PA and fanned the flames a little to encourage the making of the initial complaint (which should have been made), and when it was initially swept away by the internal investigation (yes, by an independent investigator - but still internal), they ramped up the attack by releasing the messages.
There's a lot of money and influence at play here, various parties involved that publicly display quite different ideas about how things should be be run. The messages were shared as an attempt to de-throne Horny by someone who wanted him gone, or at least put back in his box, for whatever reason.
They underestimated his superpower though. He can't see through walls or reverse time by flying around the world backwards, but he is cocky and self assured enough to get obviously caught out, but act as if he hasn't and simply crack on as if everything is normal. He just needed to convince the Mrs to come along to a couple of GP weekends to cement how normal everything is. That must have been a challenging conversation for him, having to apologise to her and at the same time trying to convince her that she needs to fly out to fix his personal image... "Yes dear, I can see that you're awfully annoyed at me right now, but I am a big deal and you're simply going to have to get over it and give me a kiss and a cuddle in public"
Also like him or loathe him Horner has been incredible for RBR. He's been with them 20 years and has delivered a great deal of success. RBR is three times the size it was in 2005. It was always going to be an uphill struggle to oust him, particularly after the independant review judged him as having no case to answer.
(Opinions about the degree of independance are irrelevant to me as they are purely speculation, i.e. anyone who disagrees with the outcome will cast doubt on its veracity and there is no way of countering rumour, you can't prove a negative)
For me it had to be someone on the RB Austria side, you can pick your candidate of choice from there. This was about stopping Horner from divesting RBR away from the main group, the only reason he's still there is due to the Thai majority owner stepping in.
Anyone can be got to and I've no doubt his vulnerabilities were well known in the paddock.
Durzel said:
This.
Also like him or loathe him Horner has been incredible for RBR. He's been with them 20 years and has delivered a great deal of success. RBR is three times the size it was in 2005. It was always going to be an uphill struggle to oust him, particularly after the independant review judged him as having no case to answer.
(Opinions about the degree of independance are irrelevant to me as they are purely speculation, i.e. anyone who disagrees with the outcome will cast doubt on its veracity and there is no way of countering rumour, you can't prove a negative)
There is no such thing as an independent review. Everyone has a side. Importing and paying for some lawyer ain't gonna give independence. The review was claimed to be independent. It's up to them to prove it was. Just saying so doesn't do it. Justifying it by saying KC a few times is not enough.Also like him or loathe him Horner has been incredible for RBR. He's been with them 20 years and has delivered a great deal of success. RBR is three times the size it was in 2005. It was always going to be an uphill struggle to oust him, particularly after the independant review judged him as having no case to answer.
(Opinions about the degree of independance are irrelevant to me as they are purely speculation, i.e. anyone who disagrees with the outcome will cast doubt on its veracity and there is no way of countering rumour, you can't prove a negative)
The internal review surprised no one with its conclusion. Also unsurprising was the dependence on it in justifying NFA.
What's the answer then? What would you define as independent? Someone has to pay for the time of the people involved, so who would do that when anyone with a vested interest is on one side or the other?
If they'd come down the other way, would you have deemed it independent then?
Seems like there's no possible way to do any review, when an "unsatisfactory" outcome will lead people to decide that they're marking their own homework, as seems to be the case here.
If they'd come down the other way, would you have deemed it independent then?
Seems like there's no possible way to do any review, when an "unsatisfactory" outcome will lead people to decide that they're marking their own homework, as seems to be the case here.
Edited by Durzel on Wednesday 12th March 11:04
Derek Smith said:
It's not history. It is largely speculation.
Why is the source of the emails of interest? It matters not.
It matters greatly, because (a) they WERE leaked to the media and therefor (b) the motives of the person leaking them matter, which was what the OP was asking. The lascivious stuff is low-brow crap for the handwringers (and if that is what you want to dwell on knock yourself out in one of the many threads devoted to it, but not this one please).Why is the source of the emails of interest? It matters not.
We've been round the houses regarding the alleged behaviour itself, and a year down the line Horner is still in place and probably stronger than ever within his organisation, but the Machiavellian stuff brought to a head who is really in charge of Red Bull as a brand and organisation, and it is (rightly and legally) the 51% shareholder.
Wills2 said:
For me it had to be someone on the RB Austria side, you can pick your candidate of choice from there. This was about stopping Horner from divesting RBR away from the main group, the only reason he's still there is due to the Thai majority owner stepping in.
Anyone can be got to and I've no doubt his vulnerabilities were well known in the paddock.
Of course it was someone on the Austria side, and it wasn't so much about stopping Horner "divesting RBR away from the main group", which was their spin on "with Dieter no longer around we have to take our chances while we can" by accusing Horner of the very thing they were attempting to do for a quick buck.Anyone can be got to and I've no doubt his vulnerabilities were well known in the paddock.
If anything Horner was trying to insulate the team he had built from nothing from exactly the sort of attempt to sell it as a going concern at the height of its value to a motor manufacturer for a quick pay-day and then walk away that the Austria plotters were perpetrating. It was no secret that Dieter was the F1 fan and his son Mark is not nearly as interested.
Durzel said:
Also like him or loathe him Horner has been incredible for RBR. He's been with them 20 years and has delivered a great deal of success. RBR is three times the size it was in 2005. It was always going to be an uphill struggle to oust him, particularly after the independent review judged him as having no case to answer.
(Opinions about the degree of independence are irrelevant to me as they are purely speculation, i.e. anyone who disagrees with the outcome will cast doubt on its veracity and there is no way of countering rumour, you can't prove a negative)
Exactly this. Horner's connection with Red Bull and motor racing significantly predates the F1 years. He first garnered their sponsorship for his own Arden team, and his overwhelming success in lower formulas meant he earned his place at the head of Red Bull Racing's F1 effort when they bought the Stewart-Ford/Jaguar entry. Dieter knew that and Yoovidhya knows that. He might be (to use some Scottish parlance) a "bawbag" but he is by far and away the best person at his job within his organisation and one of the elite group of people (the number of which you can count on one hand) who have proven they can win repeatedly at F1, dominate the sport, fall back and then return to dominate again.(Opinions about the degree of independence are irrelevant to me as they are purely speculation, i.e. anyone who disagrees with the outcome will cast doubt on its veracity and there is no way of countering rumour, you can't prove a negative)
Edited by Evercross on Wednesday 12th March 14:04
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