Are Red bull cheating?
Discussion
Mercedes were dominant, but we all knew they built a stonking engine and nailed the hybrid tech with split turbos, size zero and efficiency.
But RB is a mystery. There doesn't seem to be a silver bullet, no double diffuser, no new engine, no F duct or any particular tech that others aren't using.
I've watched podcasts, discussions and analysis and no one can seem to put a finger on it.
I'm not out to bash RB, I just wonder whether something will come out later, because it's so incredibly dominant in all areas and no one seems to know why.
Even if they aren't cheating and they have an F duct type device that is giving them an advantage, I wonder whether another team will suss it out?
But RB is a mystery. There doesn't seem to be a silver bullet, no double diffuser, no new engine, no F duct or any particular tech that others aren't using.
I've watched podcasts, discussions and analysis and no one can seem to put a finger on it.
I'm not out to bash RB, I just wonder whether something will come out later, because it's so incredibly dominant in all areas and no one seems to know why.
Even if they aren't cheating and they have an F duct type device that is giving them an advantage, I wonder whether another team will suss it out?
Outright cheating, no, but they have managed interpret the rules to their best advantage, and the results speak for themselves, and I say this as a Mercedes follower, good luck them.
If it turns out that the rules were ambiguous (well, we know they are), it’s up to the FIA to catch them doing something, or the other teams to figure it out!
In the meantime, that red bull doesn’t half shift!
If it turns out that the rules were ambiguous (well, we know they are), it’s up to the FIA to catch them doing something, or the other teams to figure it out!
In the meantime, that red bull doesn’t half shift!
wibble cb said:
Outright cheating, no, but they have managed interpret the rules to their best advantage, and the results speak for themselves, and I say this as a Mercedes follower, good luck them.
If it turns out that the rules were ambiguous (well, we know they are), it’s up to the FIA to catch them doing something, or the other teams to figure it out!
In the meantime, that red bull doesn’t half shift!
This. Fair play to them.If it turns out that the rules were ambiguous (well, we know they are), it’s up to the FIA to catch them doing something, or the other teams to figure it out!
In the meantime, that red bull doesn’t half shift!
I'm also in the camp that prefers to see a team with the morals of Mercedes do well as opposed to the insidious RB outfit...
But fair is fair. They appear to have simply built the better car and to have chosen a wiser design philosophy.
If it turns out they're cheating that will be hugely disappointing - but I don't think they are.
Well done to the team. I just have to dial out the TP and the nasty one eyed monster to be happy for them..
But fair is fair. They appear to have simply built the better car and to have chosen a wiser design philosophy.
If it turns out they're cheating that will be hugely disappointing - but I don't think they are.
Well done to the team. I just have to dial out the TP and the nasty one eyed monster to be happy for them..
A F1 technical director once said to me,
'If there is a loophole in the rules big enough to drive a truck through it, I want to be driving the truck'
Redbull are not cheating, they've just got the keys to a big truck and they knew where to drive it
F1 rules car design rules are so tightly controlled these days as everyone involved in setting the technical rules within the FIA are now 'poachers turned game keepers'
I've done a lots of poaching with many of them and they're working for the FIA as they really know their stuff, know how F1 race team technical bods think and know how to block 'working around but within the rules' approach to car design
'If there is a loophole in the rules big enough to drive a truck through it, I want to be driving the truck'
Redbull are not cheating, they've just got the keys to a big truck and they knew where to drive it
F1 rules car design rules are so tightly controlled these days as everyone involved in setting the technical rules within the FIA are now 'poachers turned game keepers'
I've done a lots of poaching with many of them and they're working for the FIA as they really know their stuff, know how F1 race team technical bods think and know how to block 'working around but within the rules' approach to car design
As much as I’d like them to be caught cheating somehow, I agree they’ve just interpreted and adapted to the new regulations much better than everyone else. And fair play to them. I just hope for the sake of the sport/entertainment the other teams close the gap sooner rather than later.
Also, am I right in thinking that Adrian Newey wrote a thesis on ground effect technology, and had exposure to that era of F1. Whereas a lot of the teams do not have that sort of experience?
Also, am I right in thinking that Adrian Newey wrote a thesis on ground effect technology, and had exposure to that era of F1. Whereas a lot of the teams do not have that sort of experience?
does it realy matter, if liberty are turning F1 into nascar, it really doesnt matter, i worked in F1 for a bit, and even 20 years ago yoit was a very boring job, i was front left corner man on a car, thats all i got to touch, but prefered endurance racing, where i got to be involved in everything. F1 has become showbiz, nothing more, I do watch the highlights on ch4, but not interested enough to pay for it, dispite knowing many involved in the show, . im not alone, many people who formly worked in it are leaving like flies to better championships where being the quickest matters with the best team. unfortunatly its now playing to the lowest common denominator, and they just want excitment
Are Red Bull cheating? Probably not, though under the new revised rules they do seem to have designed a car that generates a good amount of downforce but also seems to be able to bleed that off more quickly than the rest as the car accelerates. Is there a way to do that through aero without using some sort of a mechanical device? I'm not sure, Mercedes was dabbling with Mass Dampers linked to the rear suspension in the 21 season but they got banned.
I watched a video on the Autosports youtube channel featuring Blake Hinsey, he's an ex Red Bull engineer, he seemed to think it's not just aero but also linked to the suspension design where the team is gaining an advantage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4uY1BO0hLY
Blake has his own channel on youtube 'brrrakef1', well worth a watch if you want to get a more tech view of the F1 cars.
https://www.youtube.com/@brrrake/about
I watched a video on the Autosports youtube channel featuring Blake Hinsey, he's an ex Red Bull engineer, he seemed to think it's not just aero but also linked to the suspension design where the team is gaining an advantage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4uY1BO0hLY
Blake has his own channel on youtube 'brrrakef1', well worth a watch if you want to get a more tech view of the F1 cars.
https://www.youtube.com/@brrrake/about
I agree with the other posters here. They're doing something smart and when the other teams work out what it is they may question its legality or they may just copy it. Outright cheating - probably not.
AD21 and the run-up to it, the overspend, the lack of punishment - those are all far dodgier than current performance I'd say.
AD21 and the run-up to it, the overspend, the lack of punishment - those are all far dodgier than current performance I'd say.
The engineers are obviously well fed, after all their catering budget is fantastic.
I don't think they are cheating, they just have the best car aerodynamically and mechanically.
Everything is working in complete harmony, they probably have a really well thought out aero concept that is hidden in plain sight or might end up getting revealed if one of their cars does a roll at some point in th season.
I don't think they are cheating, they just have the best car aerodynamically and mechanically.
Everything is working in complete harmony, they probably have a really well thought out aero concept that is hidden in plain sight or might end up getting revealed if one of their cars does a roll at some point in th season.
As much as I’m not a fan of RB as a team, due to how they conduct themselves, they have built a very fast car, how much of that is due the proven overspend, (which really is cheating), or just people being good at what they do which has put it in the ‘sweet spot’ we, on the outside, will never know.
I’d like the field to close up, I want Lewis to get his 8th Championship, I want there to be hard and fair battles fought on the track, but most of all I want F1 to go back to being a sport rather than a show.
I’d like the field to close up, I want Lewis to get his 8th Championship, I want there to be hard and fair battles fought on the track, but most of all I want F1 to go back to being a sport rather than a show.
In the end I just want entertainment. And the same car winning every race is not very entertaining. Watching the mid field scrabble is way more interesting. I was bored seeing Lewis / Mercedes win everything for years and now am bored with Max / Red Bull always winning too.
Hopefully next year gets more competitive at the top. With my rose tinted glasses on I seem to remember F1 when I was young with Mansell, Prost, Senna, etc being a bit more fun.
Hopefully next year gets more competitive at the top. With my rose tinted glasses on I seem to remember F1 when I was young with Mansell, Prost, Senna, etc being a bit more fun.
ReformedPistonhead said:
In the end I just want entertainment. And the same car winning every race is not very entertaining. Watching the mid field scrabble is way more interesting. I was bored seeing Lewis / Mercedes win everything for years and now am bored with Max / Red Bull always winning too.
Hopefully next year gets more competitive at the top. With my rose tinted glasses on I seem to remember F1 when I was young with Mansell, Prost, Senna, etc being a bit more fun.
Thing is at least merc had 2 close drivers and then Ferrari/Redbull joined the party. Hopefully next year gets more competitive at the top. With my rose tinted glasses on I seem to remember F1 when I was young with Mansell, Prost, Senna, etc being a bit more fun.
We get this every time the regs change, the last few seasons are really good and then one team hits the ground running and everyone has to play catch up. The last season of the V8s was really close in terms of race winners
If one goes back to 2010 when they won their first title, there has always a been a question mark on their performance. They’ve always been accused of cheating and it’s because as a brand, being called “cheats” doesn’t affect them and they’re prepared to litigate and drag the sport through the mud if anyone dares to accuse them of cheating without concrete proof.
This team were miles off Mercedes in 2020, on a par in 2021, ahead in 22 and miles ahead in 23. Unquestionably they’ve found performance from somewhere, some thing, but you can be sure that it’ll take a rule change, like in 2014, for them to be knocked off their perch.
My guess is its engine related as the performance increase coincided with Honda announcing they were leaving the sport, or that Valkyrie car has something to do with it as has been suggested elsewhere in the forum. Either way, we’re going to have to get used to it just like we did during the Vettel dominant era.
This team were miles off Mercedes in 2020, on a par in 2021, ahead in 22 and miles ahead in 23. Unquestionably they’ve found performance from somewhere, some thing, but you can be sure that it’ll take a rule change, like in 2014, for them to be knocked off their perch.
My guess is its engine related as the performance increase coincided with Honda announcing they were leaving the sport, or that Valkyrie car has something to do with it as has been suggested elsewhere in the forum. Either way, we’re going to have to get used to it just like we did during the Vettel dominant era.
marine boy said:
A F1 technical director once said to me,
'If there is a loophole in the rules big enough to drive a truck through it, I want to be driving the truck'
Redbull are not cheating, they've just got the keys to a big truck and they knew where to drive it
F1 rules car design rules are so tightly controlled these days as everyone involved in setting the technical rules within the FIA are now 'poachers turned game keepers'
I've done a lots of poaching with many of them and they're working for the FIA as they really know their stuff, know how F1 race team technical bods think and know how to block 'working around but within the rules' approach to car design
Car design isnt that tightly controlled when one team can create a car with almost zero side pod coverage, although it didn’t work, it showed plenty of scope in the rules.'If there is a loophole in the rules big enough to drive a truck through it, I want to be driving the truck'
Redbull are not cheating, they've just got the keys to a big truck and they knew where to drive it
F1 rules car design rules are so tightly controlled these days as everyone involved in setting the technical rules within the FIA are now 'poachers turned game keepers'
I've done a lots of poaching with many of them and they're working for the FIA as they really know their stuff, know how F1 race team technical bods think and know how to block 'working around but within the rules' approach to car design
Personally I do think RB are cheating, there may be a loophole they have exploited and overstepped the mark but it will be a calculated risk based on likely penalties vs getting caught. I have no idea what the loophole may be but based on how RB have been treated over the last two seasons, I’d have given it a try.
It will be interesting to see how close the rest are at the next two GPs, if they turn everything down a bit, they’ll just say the rest have caught up and the advantage is hidden. I think the pace of the 2023 RB should have surprised even RB, but it didn’t. In testing Max was very casual “yeah the car is good” etc and not “f
k a duck this thing is a beast!” It was all to subtle and low key imho.It happens, Chapman tried it all the time but the sport was far more “mechanical” in those days, aero was being exploited bit in full view of everyone and wind tunnels barely existed etc you had a DFV and whatever your designer could create. Now there is more scope for foul play across all parts of the car
A combination of two things I think. The engine and aero.
The aero fell nicely into Newey's "chosen subject, starter for ten" and his amazing skills (and the Newey-nurtured team) will see the championships sewn up until 2026, propelled by the Honda engine that is showing huge improvement.
I don't think RBR are cheating, however they are benefitting from rules that suit their aero expertise and engine development manoeuvres.
As stated previously, they did cheat the cap in 2021 and got away with it pretty much scot free...I do not think they needed to cheat further into 2022, but we have not been enlightened yet.
They have built a rocket ship that will waft Max and RBR though the next few championships with no competition from other teams, nor Perez as a rear gunner.
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