Seatbelts in F1

[Freya.greaves]

Does anyone know when the first seatbelt was introduced in f1 and what car is was first tested on before it was mandatory in 1972. I couldn’t find when the first tests of the seatbelt were done or when the 6 point harness was introduced, could anyone help?

[Big Al.]

Google states the following

Although helmets and overalls were stipulated by Formula 1's governing body, as far back as the early '60s, safety belts have only been compulsory features in a Formula 1 car since 1972.

[williamp]

they certainly had them before 72- Rindt was killed when his seatbelt wasnt done properly.

I read somewhere that the idea came from Indycar, where it was used for years and Lotus, Mclaren et al learnt that they might, you know... be a good idea

[TheDeuce]

williamp said:

they certainly had them before 72- Rindt was killed when his seatbelt wasnt done properly.

I read somewhere that the idea came from Indycar, where it was used for years and Lotus, Mclaren et al learnt that they might, you know... be a good idea

You say that as if 'duh, why was it not obvious..' but by the same logic our road cars have inertia reel belts as opposed to full harnesses for no other reason than convenience and comfort - harnesses are valid for MOT purposes too but not at all a popular choice!

Like the halo etc... A major reason for racing drivers not being protected by what should have been obvious, is that racing drivers themselves initially vote against such measures. Back to road cars, Volvo and Saab have both put the idea of harnesses to focus groups and no one liked the idea.

Something in our human nature seems to dislike enforced safety.

[williamp]

TheDeuce said:

You say that as if 'duh, why was it not obvious..' but by the same logic our road cars have inertia reel belts as opposed to full harnesses for no other reason than convenience and comfort - harnesses are valid for MOT purposes too but not at all a popular choice!

Like the halo etc... A major reason for racing drivers not being protected by what should have been obvious, is that racing drivers themselves initially vote against such measures. Back to road cars, Volvo and Saab have both put the idea of harnesses to focus groups and no one liked the idea.

Something in our human nature seems to dislike enforced safety.

Yes that's very true. Om Readly they are showing old Motor sport magazines to read. You can tell Dennis Jenkinson bemoans Jackie Stewart and his "safety campaign"- he quite relieved that JYS cannot race due to illness, and says something like "maybe without him we can get back to proper circuits, like Spa ( I think this was the first F1 race at Nivelles)...

But then again, Doug Nye tells a great tale about interviewing a racing driver who raced in the 50s. When asked if it was safe, the reply was "its perfectly safe- for the first time in years, no-one was shooting as us"!!!

[TheDeuce]

williamp said:

TheDeuce said:

You say that as if 'duh, why was it not obvious..' but by the same logic our road cars have inertia reel belts as opposed to full harnesses for no other reason than convenience and comfort - harnesses are valid for MOT purposes too but not at all a popular choice!

Like the halo etc... A major reason for racing drivers not being protected by what should have been obvious, is that racing drivers themselves initially vote against such measures. Back to road cars, Volvo and Saab have both put the idea of harnesses to focus groups and no one liked the idea.

Something in our human nature seems to dislike enforced safety.

Yes that's very true. Om Readly they are showing old Motor sport magazines to read. You can tell Dennis Jenkinson bemoans Jackie Stewart and his "safety campaign"- he quite relieved that JYS cannot race due to illness, and says something like "maybe without him we can get back to proper circuits, like Spa ( I think this was the first F1 race at Nivelles)...

But then again, Doug Nye tells a great tale about interviewing a racing driver who raced in the 50s. When asked if it was safe, the reply was "its perfectly safe- for the first time in years, no-one was shooting as us"!!!

Yep! I think it's the case that racing drivers condition fear out of their mindset for the sake of being as fast as possible - and then when a new safety device is suggested they just see the faff and distraction of it, not the benefits, because they're not thinking about having a grisly accident in the first place. I'm sure that to a lesser extent the same is true of road car drivers too.

Even in modern F1 the grid was split over the halo until it was forced upon them. Now a few that originally spoke out about it have gone on record saying they agree it has likely (almost certainly..) saved lives already. I bet Grosjean is very grateful for it, as if the fireball wasn't bad enough, a direct hit to the skull from the armco he passed through would have been one hell of headache to deal with..

We live and learn, but we're typically one step behind what seems obvious in retrospect.

[Flooble]

Is it apocryphal that, prior to Nomex suits, drivers were as afraid of being trapped in burning wreckage as they were of being thrown out the car?

[Eric Mc]

Flooble said:

Is it apocryphal that, prior to Nomex suits, drivers were as afraid of being trapped in burning wreckage as they were of being thrown out the car?

Not apocryphal . It was the general consensus that you were better off being thrown out of a crashing car than being trapped inside or underneath it - especially if it caught fire, which was always a distinct possibility.

[anonymous-user]

John Fenning is the person i would say introduced proper harnesses to European racing and F1. https://www.willans.com/history

[Oldwolf]

jsf said:

John Fenning is the person i would say introduced proper harnesses to European racing and F1. https://www.willans.com/history

Very interesting link, thank you

[DaveE87]

TheDeuce said:

Back to road cars, Volvo and Saab have both put the idea of harnesses to focus groups and no one liked the idea.

Given their widespread use in motorsport surely any development costs would be minimal. I'm surprised that manufacturers don't offer them in some halo models. Do any manufacturers offer them with the exception of smaller companies with more focused cars like Caterham?

[Pebbles167]

DaveE87 said:

Given their widespread use in motorsport surely any development costs would be minimal. I'm surprised that manufacturers don't offer them in some halo models. Do any manufacturers offer them with the exception of smaller companies with more focused cars like Caterham?

Some supercar manufacturers put them in some of their cars, and several mainstream manufacturers have done for their special sport models, ie: Renault Megane R26R.

Harnesses are most useful on circuits and in a car that's designed to have them, with other features such as a roll cages. The harness need a properly strengthened seat to be able to work properly too, which would still need to be comfortable, driving up costs. I think it was Ford who stuck "race look" seats in their cars, with harness loops, but when examined it turned out these were little more than fancy headrests that would have collapsed in a crash should a harness be installed, and so other than cool appeal, were utterly useless as a safety device really.

Harnesses look great, but for the most part are a faff, and since most don't people do high speed track driving, they probably dont need the added support or crash safety. I wouldn't want to wear a harness in a car I was driving daily, any more than I would want to wear a helmet, although both options are arguably safer.

[Sandpit Steve]

Pebbles167 said:

Some supercar manufacturers put them in some of their cars, and several mainstream manufacturers have done for their special sport models, ie: Renault Megane R26R.

Harnesses are most useful on circuits and in a car that's designed to have them, with other features such as a roll cages. The harness need a properly strengthened seat to be able to work properly too, which would still need to be comfortable, driving up costs. I think it was Ford who stuck "race look" seats in their cars, with harness loops, but when examined it turned out these were little more than fancy headrests that would have collapsed in a crash should a harness be installed, and so other than cool appeal, were utterly useless as a safety device really.

Harnesses look great, but for the most part are a faff, and since most don't people do high speed track driving, they probably dont need the added support or crash safety. I wouldn't want to wear a harness in a car I was driving daily, any more than I would want to wear a helmet, although both options are arguably safer.

I once drive a Ferrari Speciale that had harnesses, and on the road they were annoying as hell. You don’t realise driving around, just how much you move your head and body around simply for observation.

A slightly obtuse T-Junction onto a main road, required them to be slackened off considerably in order to look for a gap in the traffic. Which you obviously want to judge corrrectly in someone else’s very expensive car, even if it was a dealer demonstrator!

Brilliant on the track though, and you’d be much better off in an accident wearing a harness, than with a standard three point seat belt.

A lot of aeroplanes have a compromise of a four-point harness, but with inertia reels on the shoulder straps (for the pilots, not the pax), which I always thought would be a good solution for a road-legal track car. Probably wouldn’t be approved for competition though, and adds weight.

[EDE 7N]

I suspect someone will have done the figures and it's more than likely mandatory harnesses in road cars would lead to an increase in serious injury and death.

I've had three cars with them (current one does too) and they're a total faff.

I suspect you'd end up with three distinct scenarios;

People driving around with just the lap belts done (guilty)
People driving around without them done up at all (guilty)
People driving around fully strapped in and unable to move to look at blind spots and oblique junctions.

None are preferable to the simple 3 point inertia belt that a high proportion of drivers use without thinking. Never underestimate the stupidity of the general public;

When seat belts were made mandatory in Italy, the best selling T-Shirts that year where plain white with a diagonal black stripe across them mimicking the appearance of wearing one so the local fuzz didn't stop you.

[DaveE87]

Pebbles167 said:

Some supercar manufacturers put them in some of their cars, and several mainstream manufacturers have done for their special sport models, ie: Renault Megane R26R.

Harnesses are most useful on circuits and in a car that's designed to have them, with other features such as a roll cages. The harness need a properly strengthened seat to be able to work properly too, which would still need to be comfortable, driving up costs. I think it was Ford who stuck "race look" seats in their cars, with harness loops, but when examined it turned out these were little more than fancy headrests that would have collapsed in a crash should a harness be installed, and so other than cool appeal, were utterly useless as a safety device really.

Harnesses look great, but for the most part are a faff, and since most don't people do high speed track driving, they probably dont need the added support or crash safety. I wouldn't want to wear a harness in a car I was driving daily, any more than I would want to wear a helmet, although both options are arguably safer.

Thanks for the info.

[TheDeuce]

EDE 7N said:

I suspect someone will have done the figures and it's more than likely mandatory harnesses in road cars would lead to an increase in serious injury and death.

I've had three cars with them (current one does too) and they're a total faff.

I suspect you'd end up with three distinct scenarios;

People driving around with just the lap belts done (guilty)
People driving around without them done up at all (guilty)
People driving around fully strapped in and unable to move to look at blind spots and oblique junctions.

None are preferable to the simple 3 point inertia belt that a high proportion of drivers use without thinking. Never underestimate the stupidity of the general public;

When seat belts were made mandatory in Italy, the best selling T-Shirts that year where plain white with a diagonal black stripe across them mimicking the appearance of wearing one so the local fuzz didn't stop you.

Also using a drive-thru McDonalds is simply impossible

Indeed all sorts of real world issues with practicality and also the cars, or at least the anchor points and seats, would need to be designed with harnesses in mind, there's just no appetite for them in road cars - although if there were, and if used correctly, they're safer than standard seatbelts.

In Italy, they will also sell you a credit card sized bit of plastic that you can slot in to seatbelt socket to stop the car bonging at you to put your belt on

[Drumroll]

The biggest technical issue with the fitting harness to road cars is fitting one that can take the load and not intrude into the passenger compartment, but still allow the seat to behave like normal.

The biggest problem if the technical problems could be overcome is to get "joe public" to accept them.