Discussion
Are they right to be suspicious "well it is Ferrari Haas are dealing with" or is it just F1 being F1.
Taken from Autosport
Force India and McLaren want the Haas Formula 1 team's technical relationship with Ferrari investigated after its "magic" Australian Grand Prix performance.
Haas locked out the third row of the grid in qualifying for the season-opener in Melbourne and ran fourth and fifth ahead of Red Bull before pitstop mistakes condemned Kevin Magnussen and Romain Grosjean to retirement.
It triggered fresh questions over Haas's working relationship with Ferrari, which supplies the team with parts it does not need to build itself but also allows Dallara, Haas's chassis partner, to use its windtunnel.
F1's sporting regulations strictly forbid the passing on or receiving of information on parts teams are supposed to produce themselves, a move also designed to stop personnel being rotated between projects.
Force India chief operating officer Otmar Szafnauer wants the application of those restrictions discussed in the next meeting of F1's Strategy Group.
"I don't know how they do it, it's magic," he said. "It's never been done before in Formula 1.
"I just don't know how it can be right that someone who's been in the sport for a couple of years with no resource could produce a car... does it happen by magic?
"If it does, I want the wand."
McLaren driver Fernando Alonso labelled the 2018 Haas a "Ferrari replica" in Melbourne, and his team's executive director Zak Brown told Autosport it was "something that needs to be looked at closely".
Grosjean said the use of Ferrari's front suspension, which the regulations allow, would naturally dictate the major aerodynamic design points because of the way the air flows over the rest of the car.
Brown admitted "I don't have any evidence" to suggest Haas was not operating within the rules, but said: "We all know they have a very close alliance with Ferrari and I think we just need to make sure it's not too close.
"There could be some influence, there's certainly some parts of the car that look very similar to last year's car.
"But that's for the engineers and the FIA to look at more closely."
Brown and Szafnauer both said multiple teams would support a clarification over the Ferrari/Haas arrangement.
Szafnauer said he wanted the FIA to explain the process for ensuring the guidelines were being respected.
"All the aerodynamic surfaces have to be your own," he said. "If they're not, I don't know how you can tell unless you start investigating.
"Scrutineering only tells you that it fits within the boxes of the regulations.
"Is it yours or somebody else's [idea]? That's the real question. And I don't know the answer to that.
"Maybe it is their own, it's just suspect - how can you gain that knowledge without history and the right tools and people?"
Asked by Autosport about the Ferrari comments earlier in the weekend, Steiner said: "We have a team that can be proud of what it is achieving at the moment.
"We are not doing anything we shouldn't be doing or not allowed to do."
Taken from Autosport
Force India and McLaren want the Haas Formula 1 team's technical relationship with Ferrari investigated after its "magic" Australian Grand Prix performance.
Haas locked out the third row of the grid in qualifying for the season-opener in Melbourne and ran fourth and fifth ahead of Red Bull before pitstop mistakes condemned Kevin Magnussen and Romain Grosjean to retirement.
It triggered fresh questions over Haas's working relationship with Ferrari, which supplies the team with parts it does not need to build itself but also allows Dallara, Haas's chassis partner, to use its windtunnel.
F1's sporting regulations strictly forbid the passing on or receiving of information on parts teams are supposed to produce themselves, a move also designed to stop personnel being rotated between projects.
Force India chief operating officer Otmar Szafnauer wants the application of those restrictions discussed in the next meeting of F1's Strategy Group.
"I don't know how they do it, it's magic," he said. "It's never been done before in Formula 1.
"I just don't know how it can be right that someone who's been in the sport for a couple of years with no resource could produce a car... does it happen by magic?
"If it does, I want the wand."
McLaren driver Fernando Alonso labelled the 2018 Haas a "Ferrari replica" in Melbourne, and his team's executive director Zak Brown told Autosport it was "something that needs to be looked at closely".
Grosjean said the use of Ferrari's front suspension, which the regulations allow, would naturally dictate the major aerodynamic design points because of the way the air flows over the rest of the car.
Brown admitted "I don't have any evidence" to suggest Haas was not operating within the rules, but said: "We all know they have a very close alliance with Ferrari and I think we just need to make sure it's not too close.
"There could be some influence, there's certainly some parts of the car that look very similar to last year's car.
"But that's for the engineers and the FIA to look at more closely."
Brown and Szafnauer both said multiple teams would support a clarification over the Ferrari/Haas arrangement.
Szafnauer said he wanted the FIA to explain the process for ensuring the guidelines were being respected.
"All the aerodynamic surfaces have to be your own," he said. "If they're not, I don't know how you can tell unless you start investigating.
"Scrutineering only tells you that it fits within the boxes of the regulations.
"Is it yours or somebody else's [idea]? That's the real question. And I don't know the answer to that.
"Maybe it is their own, it's just suspect - how can you gain that knowledge without history and the right tools and people?"
Asked by Autosport about the Ferrari comments earlier in the weekend, Steiner said: "We have a team that can be proud of what it is achieving at the moment.
"We are not doing anything we shouldn't be doing or not allowed to do."
It would seem that when Haas/Dallara spent most of 2015 in Ferrari's wind tunnel, they weren't working so much on the 2016 Haas. Rather they were working on the 2017 Ferrari and 2018 Haas, which appear to be very closely related. This would explain how they could produce two mediocre cars and then a flyer.
However, if that is the case then at the time Haas weren't actually an F1 entrant, so have they broken the rules? Is the 2018 Haas really a Ferrari, or was the 2017 Ferrari more of a Haas, given that it was Haas/Dallara in the wind tunnel for all of that time? If this is just a one-off occurrence then I think it's just very clever use of the rules on the Italians' part, and they shouldn't be able to repeat it now that Haas are an entrant in their own right.
However, if that is the case then at the time Haas weren't actually an F1 entrant, so have they broken the rules? Is the 2018 Haas really a Ferrari, or was the 2017 Ferrari more of a Haas, given that it was Haas/Dallara in the wind tunnel for all of that time? If this is just a one-off occurrence then I think it's just very clever use of the rules on the Italians' part, and they shouldn't be able to repeat it now that Haas are an entrant in their own right.
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This is not a precedent. The Sauber C23 from 2004 was strikingly similar to the Ferrari F2003 from the year before, and I can't remember if they were officially buying anything other than the engine from Ferrari. Copying has always been a thing in F1, and for small teams with limited budgets it's often better to copy a known good design rather than trying to re-invent the wheel. As long as there hasn't been any illegal data transfer between the teams, I don't see anything wrong with that.
Haas have tended to be quick early on in the season and fade out in the development race.
Last year's Ferrari was a very quick car and due to the engine regs +halo the front runners haven't found as much speed in the winter compared to end of last year, so it is flattering the Haas car.
The challenge is to keep pace in the development race. If Haas can do that and be in Q3 till the last race, then hats off.
It isn't a straight clone though.
Last year's Ferrari was a very quick car and due to the engine regs +halo the front runners haven't found as much speed in the winter compared to end of last year, so it is flattering the Haas car.
The challenge is to keep pace in the development race. If Haas can do that and be in Q3 till the last race, then hats off.
It isn't a straight clone though.
KrazyIvan said:
Not if you look at the actual detail. The floor, rear wing end plates, front wing detail even the side pods don't match. Any similarities are more likely down to the regs rather than design.
I bet that if you compared a Ferrari from the start of 2017 with a Ferrari from the end of 2017 then they would differ in all the same areas. It doesn't mean they aren't derived from the same base. They differ in details, but the overall design concept is clearly the same, most notably around the side pods, which was a unique concept to the Ferrari last year..Of course, the Haas designers might just be very good at copying something they liked from photographs of another car, all the teams do that, but the fact that they previously spent a long time camped in Ferrari's wind tunnel looks suspicious to outsiders.
If anything, I think those pictures show quite a big difference. The front suspension pickup points are further forward, the front wing elements are different and the slot arrangement in the rear floor section are very different.
Knowing what the front suspension does, having an engine cover that covers the same bits and a few photographs for their aero guys to study and I suspect it is within the rules. Perhaps a Ferrari have let them see their cooling?
I also thought that a big USP for Hass was that they had a huge windtunnel in the States, plus they have, by now, probably managed to poach a few aero guys from different teams.
Like others, I suspect sour grapes, but then everything has to be right and they really screwed up with their pit stops, so their performance was worth zip.
Knowing what the front suspension does, having an engine cover that covers the same bits and a few photographs for their aero guys to study and I suspect it is within the rules. Perhaps a Ferrari have let them see their cooling?
I also thought that a big USP for Hass was that they had a huge windtunnel in the States, plus they have, by now, probably managed to poach a few aero guys from different teams.
Like others, I suspect sour grapes, but then everything has to be right and they really screwed up with their pit stops, so their performance was worth zip.
StevieBee said:
Again, nothing new under the F1 sun.
Super Aguri ran what was effectively Honda cars
A few years back Torro Rosso's were Red Bulls in all but name (and engine).
Didn't Arrows get hauled over the coals for effectively copying the Williams FW07 or 8 in the 1980s?
The history of Arrows starts with them copying the Shadows DN9 for their first ever season in 1978.Super Aguri ran what was effectively Honda cars
A few years back Torro Rosso's were Red Bulls in all but name (and engine).
Didn't Arrows get hauled over the coals for effectively copying the Williams FW07 or 8 in the 1980s?
The pics above of the Haas and Ferrari together could be done for many cars in the recent era - the regulations are so tight they all end up with the same overall design (because it's the one that works best) with minor tweaks between them.
StevieBee said:
Again, nothing new under the F1 sun.
Super Aguri ran what was effectively Honda cars
A few years back Torro Rosso's were Red Bulls in all but name (and engine).
Didn't Arrows get hauled over the coals for effectively copying the Williams FW07 or 8 in the 1980s?
I had always assumed there would be a sharing of data between the two Red Bull teams (Torro Rosso & Red Bull) so the fact that Hass is running as a little-sister to Ferrari shouldn't be any surprise. Super Aguri ran what was effectively Honda cars
A few years back Torro Rosso's were Red Bulls in all but name (and engine).
Didn't Arrows get hauled over the coals for effectively copying the Williams FW07 or 8 in the 1980s?
How are you supposed to stop one team looking at others car and trying their ideas alongside other peoples? It's just another one of the F1 'gentleman's agreement' where one engineer shouldn't talk to another, or when one idea can't be copied which can't possibly be policed.
StevieBee said:
Again, nothing new under the F1 sun.
Super Aguri ran what was effectively Honda cars
A few years back Torro Rosso's were Red Bulls in all but name (and engine).
Didn't Arrows get hauled over the coals for effectively copying the Williams FW07 or 8 in the 1980s?
I certainly remember the Super Aguri going from the slowest team on the grid by a county mile to beating the works Honda team a year later Super Aguri ran what was effectively Honda cars
A few years back Torro Rosso's were Red Bulls in all but name (and engine).
Didn't Arrows get hauled over the coals for effectively copying the Williams FW07 or 8 in the 1980s?
If that wasn't suspicious I don't know what is but they still got away with it. Even Jenson Button said it was last year's car that they were basically slower than.
As others have said I bet this would be a non event if Haas were 15th and 16th in Oz.
the_bakerboy3685 said:
I certainly remember the Super Aguri going from the slowest team on the grid by a county mile to beating the works Honda team a year later
If that wasn't suspicious I don't know what is but they still got away with it. Even Jenson Button said it was last year's car that they were basically slower than.
As others have said I bet this would be a non event if Haas were 15th and 16th in Oz.
To be fair the first Super Aguri was basically an adapted 98 Arrows if I remember rightly. They were thrown together last minute and that was the only way they’d get on the grid in time.If that wasn't suspicious I don't know what is but they still got away with it. Even Jenson Button said it was last year's car that they were basically slower than.
As others have said I bet this would be a non event if Haas were 15th and 16th in Oz.
Still one of my favourite F1 teams ever though.
DanielSan said:
the_bakerboy3685 said:
I certainly remember the Super Aguri going from the slowest team on the grid by a county mile to beating the works Honda team a year later
If that wasn't suspicious I don't know what is but they still got away with it. Even Jenson Button said it was last year's car that they were basically slower than.
As others have said I bet this would be a non event if Haas were 15th and 16th in Oz.
To be fair the first Super Aguri was basically an adapted 98 Arrows if I remember rightly. They were thrown together last minute and that was the only way they’d get on the grid in time.If that wasn't suspicious I don't know what is but they still got away with it. Even Jenson Button said it was last year's car that they were basically slower than.
As others have said I bet this would be a non event if Haas were 15th and 16th in Oz.
Still one of my favourite F1 teams ever though.
A few seasons later and Honda didn't even want 1 F1 team let alone 2.
the_bakerboy3685 said:
That is true they were woefully unprepared in season 1 and only put together at the last minute so Takuma Sato could still have a place in F1!
A few seasons later and Honda didn't even want 1 F1 team let alone 2.
Then Brawn put a Mercedes engine in the back and it won the Championship.A few seasons later and Honda didn't even want 1 F1 team let alone 2.
Talk about a kick in the Pistachios
Off topic but still a great moment in F1 for me, Sato overtaking Ralf Schumacher and Alonso in Canada
https://youtu.be/c0Z7RQO2xyQ
https://youtu.be/c0Z7RQO2xyQ
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