Could 4x4 be in the future regs

[Doink]

I don't normally watch it but I caught the team principles press conference yesterday which was already a couple of days old but did anyone who watched it also notice that when asked Toto was not adverse to the idea of having the front wheels driven by motors infact he seemed very much in favour of it, it was implied he may of even suggested it, Merc are keen on retaining some form of hybrid on the cars and I thought this might be a a good compromise, let's face it hybrid is here to stay whether we like it or not, the talks here on going back to the v8's or v12's is just so out of touch with whats happening, dont get me wrong i wish we could too but i know its never now going to happen, f1 is too far into the hybrid route to fully turn around and go back to a proper balls out race engine

[Eric Mc]

That would be interesting. How about - no downforce and 4x4?

Shades of 1969.

[StevieBee]

As long as it didn't hinder the styling too much. This was Robin Herd's go at 4x4 F1

[HustleRussell]

Doink said:

f1 is too far into the hybrid route to fully turn around and go back to a proper balls out race engine

In what way is ~850bhp and biblical quantities of torque going through the rear wheels only not 'a proper balls out race engine'?

[Doink]

Depends on how bulky the motor hubs would be, I'd imagine some form of enclosed front nose cone which would remove the over complicated front wings, it could throw up some interesting concepts that's for sure

[Eric Mc]

StevieBee said:

As long as it didn't hinder the styling too much. This was Robin Herd's go at 4x4 F1

That looked awfully futuristic back in 1969.

[EDLT]

If Mercedes are keen on keeping hybrid power they may want in-wheel electric motors so they can use them on future road cars.

[thegreenhell]

So, more weight, more complexity and more cost then? Not just for the extra motors and drive components, but the extra battery power that will be needed to drive them. Even with MGU-K and MGU-H they currently have they can't harvest enough power to deploy fully all the time as it is, so they'll have to add even more hybrid recovery elements to drive the front wheels as well. They'll be able to get some of it from front regen braking - currently they can only regen from the rear axle - but that alone won't be enough.

[pitlane]

HustleRussell said:

In what way is ~850bhp and biblical quantities of torque going through the rear wheels only not 'a proper balls out race engine'?

~ 1000 bhp for the factory Merc cars in qualifying mode!

[sc0tt]

pitlane said:

HustleRussell said:

In what way is ~850bhp and biblical quantities of torque going through the rear wheels only not 'a proper balls out race engine'?

~ 1000 bhp for the factory Merc cars in qualifying mode!

Pah, warm hatches.

[Welshbeef]

sc0tt said:

Pah, warm hatches.

C6 RS6’s very easy to get to those levels in a road car.

[HustleRussell]

Welshbeef said:

sc0tt said:

Pah, warm hatches.

C6 RS6’s very easy to get to those levels in a road car.

How is that in any way relevant to the discussion?

The current PUs are good. Simplify them, standardise bits, make the cars lighter by all means but we don't want another PU revolution now that the performance from the various suppliers is just beginning to converge.

[Doink]

HustleRussell said:

Doink said:

f1 is too far into the hybrid route to fully turn around and go back to a proper balls out race engine

In what way is ~850bhp and biblical quantities of torque going through the rear wheels only not 'a proper balls out race engine'?

I meant just a proper balls out race engine............no hybrid, its never going back to just an ICE driving the wheels, I wish it would but it never will, there will always be an element of hybrid now in F1, it cant be undone, its how much hybrid is the question? The trouble is the manufacturers are dictating the rules they want otherwise they'll leave, the owners liberty don't want that so rather than side fully with the fans and give us our v10's back they'll side with the teams Merc, Honda and Renault and include some form of hybrid

[HustleRussell]

Doink said:

HustleRussell said:

Doink said:

f1 is too far into the hybrid route to fully turn around and go back to a proper balls out race engine

In what way is ~850bhp and biblical quantities of torque going through the rear wheels only not 'a proper balls out race engine'?

I meant just a proper balls out race engine............no hybrid, its never going back to just an ICE driving the wheels

I don't think you know what you mean by 'a proper balls out race engine', the V6 Hybrids are already making V10 levels of power whilst supporting the marketing agendas of a growing number of manufacturers.

[Derek Smith]

No more technical innovations please. If regulations remain static for a few years, or at least we have no major changes, then the racing becomes closer and the lower teams catch up. Diminishing returns and all that. We appear to be seeing a bit of that this season, with Merc no longer streets ahead and there being three teams in with a shout of the win.

I like the current engines, with drivers having to think when to put their foot down despite the downforce being generated.

That said, I'd like downforce being reduced, say 15% per year.

[MartG]

Doink said:

Depends on how bulky the motor hubs would be, I'd imagine some form of enclosed front nose cone which would remove the over complicated front wings, it could throw up some interesting concepts that's for sure

The motors could be mounted inboard, driving the wheels via shafts. There is a precedent - the Lotus 72 had inboard front brakes with shafts to the wheels

[MartG]

Eric Mc said:

StevieBee said:

As long as it didn't hinder the styling too much. This was Robin Herd's go at 4x4 F1

That looked awfully futuristic back in 1969.

He had another go later, and while the test car wasn't 4wd it probably wouldn't have taken much...

[HustleRussell]

Increase wheels to 18" as long mooted, motors on hubs, done.

[Some Gump]

Can't see 4wd myself, personally. It's an aero formula, so no chance of driveshafts and inboard a la LMP1, it would make the nose too bulky (spoiling flow backwards) and driveshafts are draggy as hell.

So that leaves the hub motor. Not convinced there either - unsprung weight would be an issue where they regularly muller kerbs, and heat would be a huge issue.

[glasgow mega snake]

I really hope it doesn't go to 4 wheel drive. Two main reasons not to for me:

- increase in weight, in what are already very heavy cars for single seaters.
- it will be easier in traction zones - it will reduce the challenge of driving the cars.

so from the 'show' and the 'challenge' point of view its a negative move.