Grid Penalties
Discussion
E-bmw said:
IMHO only for driver infringements.
Team/reliability infringements should be lost constructor points. (Unfortunately McLaren would now be owing hundreds of points!)
I pretty much agree with this.Team/reliability infringements should be lost constructor points. (Unfortunately McLaren would now be owing hundreds of points!)
If the driver blocks someone during quali then a 5 place grid drop is a fair penalty.
If the car needs new engine components and with the current system in place, it is silly to have the option of a 35 place grid penalty - why bother doing qualifying...and in that situation change everything you can at that one race and just take the whole race as a loss.
By deducting constructor points, you are not affecting the racing...something that they day they are so keen to avoid doing.
The Moose said:
E-bmw said:
IMHO only for driver infringements.
Team/reliability infringements should be lost constructor points. (Unfortunately McLaren would now be owing hundreds of points!)
I pretty much agree with this.Team/reliability infringements should be lost constructor points. (Unfortunately McLaren would now be owing hundreds of points!)
If the driver blocks someone during quali then a 5 place grid drop is a fair penalty.
If the car needs new engine components and with the current system in place, it is silly to have the option of a 35 place grid penalty - why bother doing qualifying...and in that situation change everything you can at that one race and just take the whole race as a loss.
By deducting constructor points, you are not affecting the racing...something that they day they are so keen to avoid doing.
Smollet said:
They should not add up to more than 5 places imo.
Regardless of the rights or wrongs of penalising drivers for mechanical things beyond their control, there is certainly something ridiculous about penalising them more places than there actually are on the entire grid. After a certain point they just become meaningless.hairyben said:
The Moose said:
E-bmw said:
IMHO only for driver infringements.
Team/reliability infringements should be lost constructor points. (Unfortunately McLaren would now be owing hundreds of points!)
I pretty much agree with this.Team/reliability infringements should be lost constructor points. (Unfortunately McLaren would now be owing hundreds of points!)
If the driver blocks someone during quali then a 5 place grid drop is a fair penalty.
If the car needs new engine components and with the current system in place, it is silly to have the option of a 35 place grid penalty - why bother doing qualifying...and in that situation change everything you can at that one race and just take the whole race as a loss.
By deducting constructor points, you are not affecting the racing...something that they day they are so keen to avoid doing.
Like so much of Formula 1 the penalty regime is absurd and makes the sport a laughing stock. I would remove the penalty regime for everything - especially for the sin of racing drivers behaving like racing drivers . Two exceptions- .
One - exclusion from next GP if they don't run at least 10 laps in each practice session for any reason other than a broken car. In Suzuka thousands of fans watched just 5 cars in one session because it was raining and most of the overpaid divas couldn't be arsed to give the fans what they had paid to see.
Two - any moaning over the radio about the bad man who overtook him in such a beastly fashion or the slower driver who refused to dive out of his way the second he was caught up and was about to be lapped would result in a 50kg penalty next race .
Major transgressions - serious cheating , intentionally crashing into another car for the sole reason of pushing it off(see Senna, Schumacher, Vettel ) a discretionary penalty imposed by a small(and permanent ) standing group of ex driver stewards ranging from points deduction to removal of total season points accrued .Otherwise - get on with it and behave like the best drivers in the world you are supposed to be.
Car breaks? So effing what ? It ain't meant to be a reliability run .
One - exclusion from next GP if they don't run at least 10 laps in each practice session for any reason other than a broken car. In Suzuka thousands of fans watched just 5 cars in one session because it was raining and most of the overpaid divas couldn't be arsed to give the fans what they had paid to see.
Two - any moaning over the radio about the bad man who overtook him in such a beastly fashion or the slower driver who refused to dive out of his way the second he was caught up and was about to be lapped would result in a 50kg penalty next race .
Major transgressions - serious cheating , intentionally crashing into another car for the sole reason of pushing it off(see Senna, Schumacher, Vettel ) a discretionary penalty imposed by a small(and permanent ) standing group of ex driver stewards ranging from points deduction to removal of total season points accrued .Otherwise - get on with it and behave like the best drivers in the world you are supposed to be.
Car breaks? So effing what ? It ain't meant to be a reliability run .
coppice said:
One - exclusion from next GP if they don't run at least 10 laps in each practice session for any reason other than a broken car. In Suzuka thousands of fans watched just 5 cars in one session because it was raining and most of the overpaid divas couldn't be arsed to give the fans what they had paid to see.
TBF isnt that more to do with tyre allocation which fia mandate, and using them up could compromise qually/race?DanielSan said:
Coulthard had a good idea, any car with a penalty has to run in qualifying with 10-15kgs of fuel on board to penalise their fastest lap but still make the qualifying results the actual result not subject to a million penalties
Enter the hyper intensive fuel burning engine map...hairyben said:
coppice said:
One - exclusion from next GP if they don't run at least 10 laps in each practice session for any reason other than a broken car. In Suzuka thousands of fans watched just 5 cars in one session because it was raining and most of the overpaid divas couldn't be arsed to give the fans what they had paid to see.
TBF isnt that more to do with tyre allocation which fia mandate, and using them up could compromise qually/race?I mean come on, it's only hard core fans who do the free practices and surely they have enough brains to know about their sport and accept teams can't risk it.
A much better solution would be a mandatory fan zone at each circuit for the eventuality of adverse conditions and drivers must attend.
In fact a mandatory X hours of fan interaction by each driver should be part of the show already.
hairyben said:
DanielSan said:
Coulthard had a good idea, any car with a penalty has to run in qualifying with 10-15kgs of fuel on board to penalise their fastest lap but still make the qualifying results the actual result not subject to a million penalties
Enter the hyper intensive fuel burning engine map...Actually, I like this idea. Rather than giving them a 35 place grid penalty, make them race with 35kg of penalty ballast.
thegreenhell said:
hairyben said:
DanielSan said:
Coulthard had a good idea, any car with a penalty has to run in qualifying with 10-15kgs of fuel on board to penalise their fastest lap but still make the qualifying results the actual result not subject to a million penalties
Enter the hyper intensive fuel burning engine map...Actually, I like this idea. Rather than giving them a 35 place grid penalty, make them race with 35kg of penalty ballast.
hairyben said:
thegreenhell said:
hairyben said:
DanielSan said:
Coulthard had a good idea, any car with a penalty has to run in qualifying with 10-15kgs of fuel on board to penalise their fastest lap but still make the qualifying results the actual result not subject to a million penalties
Enter the hyper intensive fuel burning engine map...Actually, I like this idea. Rather than giving them a 35 place grid penalty, make them race with 35kg of penalty ballast.
I still quite like the idea of three championships, Drivers, Constructors and Engines, with penalties are applied to whoever lets the side down.
Driver blocks someone on their qually run? Grid penalty or points fine. Engine blows up? Minus X points in the Engine championship. Team perform an unsafe release? X points deducted in the Constructors championship.
I'm not totally convinced on grid penalties for anything but the most serious of things. I get there needs to be consequences but with championship points at stake it might really only affect those in a championship fight. Would K-Mag really be bothered about losing 5 points this year?
Perhaps each point would also need a $100K fine along with it too?
LaurasOtherHalf said:
hairyben said:
thegreenhell said:
hairyben said:
DanielSan said:
Coulthard had a good idea, any car with a penalty has to run in qualifying with 10-15kgs of fuel on board to penalise their fastest lap but still make the qualifying results the actual result not subject to a million penalties
Enter the hyper intensive fuel burning engine map...Actually, I like this idea. Rather than giving them a 35 place grid penalty, make them race with 35kg of penalty ballast.
I still quite like the idea of three championships, Drivers, Constructors and Engines, with penalties are applied to whoever lets the side down.
Driver blocks someone on their qually run? Grid penalty or points fine. Engine blows up? Minus X points in the Engine championship. Team perform an unsafe release? X points deducted in the Constructors championship.
I'm not totally convinced on grid penalties for anything but the most serious of things. I get there needs to be consequences but with championship points at stake it might really only affect those in a championship fight. Would K-Mag really be bothered about losing 5 points this year?
Perhaps each point would also need a $100K fine along with it too?
What happens when the spark plug is found to have failed because of being over tightened when a mechanic screwed up?
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Why jeapordise your entire weekend/championship to run in the wet and risk a crash in free practice 2?!
I mean come on, it's only hard core fans who do the free practices and surely they have enough brains to know about their sport and accept teams can't risk it.
A much better solution would be a mandatory fan zone at each circuit for the eventuality of adverse conditions and drivers must attend.
In fact a mandatory X hours of fan interaction by each driver should be part of the show already.
Hard core ? Alienate the real fans - the people who actually make the effort to watch racing live - and you risk eroding the sport's essence. Fan zone ? Oddly enough , many people who watch live motor sport don't get all moist at the prospect of seeing drivers give away free baseball caps and pose for selfies - we actually rather like watching cars on track . I mean come on, it's only hard core fans who do the free practices and surely they have enough brains to know about their sport and accept teams can't risk it.
A much better solution would be a mandatory fan zone at each circuit for the eventuality of adverse conditions and drivers must attend.
In fact a mandatory X hours of fan interaction by each driver should be part of the show already.
Anyway, slightly less tongue in cheek , sports like drag racing are decent enough to give you a rain check if rain stops play. F1 is happy to trouser the grotesquely priced entrance fees but not , apparently, to deliver what has been paid for .
Many years ago I was at a soaked Silverstone practice - 92 perhaps - and none of the million dollar divas wanted to get damp despite the fact that the people who had paid the divas' wages were present in their thousands . Jean Alesi made a hell of a lot of new friends that day by firing up his Ferrari and driving the arse off it . I understand Hamilton did the same at Suzuka and bloody good for him
Edited by coppice on Tuesday 10th October 07:59
I'd be for a removal of the constructors points, 25% for each of the four power unit components changed up to a max of 100%, with no other penalties imposed for changing components. As prize money for the team is awarded on the position in the constructors table this should work quite nicely, and it doesn't directly affect the driver.
Any penalty has to be cumulative for the number of components changed, otherwise as soon as you change one component then you may as well change the lot as it would be the same penalty.
Any penalty has to be cumulative for the number of components changed, otherwise as soon as you change one component then you may as well change the lot as it would be the same penalty.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
But it's still hobbling the driver for the constructors mistake.
I understand the sentiment, but I think we need to get away from the idea that the driver and the constructor are somehow separate and deserving of being treated independently. They are equally dependant upon each other for success. They win together and lose together. They are a team.Yes it's unfortunate when the poor driver is penalised when something breaks that isn't his fault, but does anyone lament the team (their millions of £ investment and hundreds of people's efforts) when the driver does something stupid, and beyond the team's control, and ends their race at the first corner, or gets a penalty for bad driving? Swings and roundabouts.
I know you proposed a system of separate penalties for driver, chassis and engine, but to me that becomes far too complicated for all but the most hardcore fans to even try following. As another poster said, it will lead to blurred lines of responsibility as to who takes the penalty.
Whatever system we get needs to be less complicated, not more. It needs to be transparent and easy to understand for the casual viewer as well as the hardcore fans. It needs to penalise them straight away in a meaningful manner, not more grid penalties than there are places on the grid, and not championship points that the team may not even have. It's meaningless.
It also needs to be something that can be applied equally to any team with equal effect. For this reason I don't think fines are a correct penalty, at least in the current climate of vastly different team budgets. A fine that would be sufficient to reprimand Ferrari or Mercedes could cripple a smaller team, and likewise a fine suitable for a smaller team would barely be a deterrent for the bigger teams.
Unfortunately I think the concept of penalties of some form is unavoidable for as long as there is an artificial limit to the number of various components that can be used.
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