Discussion
the most successful F1 engine in history: Ford Cosworth DFV dominated in Formula 1 from 1967 to 1983
as the europeans seem to be dominating F1 Will we ever see these times again with a british engine or are we fading out with brexit as more pressure is being put to alternative means of fuel emissions.
as the europeans seem to be dominating F1 Will we ever see these times again with a british engine or are we fading out with brexit as more pressure is being put to alternative means of fuel emissions.
What's Brexit got to do with it?
The currently most dominant engine (drivetrain) is British. British based teams still dominate, the only team on the continent ever able to compete is Ferrari, and to do that they often use non Italian engineers and designers when they are dominant.
The currently most dominant engine (drivetrain) is British. British based teams still dominate, the only team on the continent ever able to compete is Ferrari, and to do that they often use non Italian engineers and designers when they are dominant.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 7th August 22:27
Isn't the current best engine in F1 made by a British company in Britain?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes_AMG_High_Pe...
Granted they are owned by Mercedes-Benz but are still a British company.
Even though F1 is a global sport, the engineering talent is mostly from the UK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes_AMG_High_Pe...
Granted they are owned by Mercedes-Benz but are still a British company.
Even though F1 is a global sport, the engineering talent is mostly from the UK.
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LIFESTYLE/THE BUSINESS OF F1 2017
F1 takes wait-and-see approach to Brexit
With the economic realities of a post-Brexit world yet to be determined, to what extent will Formula 1 be affected?
RCNT.EU/WIYRT BY KATE WALKERMAY 2, 2017
F1 and Brexit
As Formula 1 has grown from niche interest to global sporting behemoth, the Eurocentric sport has evolved in line with the European Union and the free movement of goods and people that come with membership. Partnerships cross national boundaries, and F1 teams have supply chains and bases dotted across the continent.
In the UK, motorsport employs around 40,000 people and generates £9 billion per year for the economy. But an industry that relies on the free movement of both goods and people – and on the STEM graduates currently underrepresented in the British educational system – will certainly feel the effects of Brexit if no deal is reached before the clock runs out on Article 50.
MOVEMENT OF GOODS
The British government is looking to preserve “a deep and special relationship” with the EU, and while the mutual stated priority is the safeguarding of the rights of expats in both the EU and the UK, there remains a lot to be done with regard to the future movement of goods and people.
For F1, the movement of goods and people is a significant headache: car parts, personnel, and promotional equipment all need to be moved on a fortnightly basis to ensure that the TV broadcasting schedules are adhered to.
The best example currently available to the F1 world is that of Swiss team Sauber. Switzerland is a member of the European Free Trade Association, but team manager Jorg Zander devotes a significant proportion of his working day to the filing and processing of customs papers as a non-EU member.
Of the ten teams currently involved in F1, seven are based in the UK. But of those seven, four have no solid reason to remain in the UK should Motorsport Valley lose its allure
Sauber has also previously struggled to attract top-level engineering talent, although the Hinwil outfit’s remote location – far from any established motorsport cluster – is a driving factor there.
One of Britain’s great strengths in F1 has long been the existence of ‘Motorsport Valley’, a cluster of racing teams and related suppliers all found within a 100-mile radius of Northamptonshire’s Silverstone circuit. The seemingly bottomless pool of engineering talent and racing teams found in the area has allowed racing staff to move between teams and roles without uprooting their families in the process.
Think Enterprise. Think ARU.
- SPONSORED
BY ANGLIA RUSKIN UNIVERSITY
That will not change, irrespective of any deal done. What will change, however, is the ease with which teams are able to attract new talent from overseas, something that was already a challenge, according to Pat Symonds, former chief technical officer for Williams F1.
ATTRACTING TALENT
“We do employ a lot of Europeans,” Mr Symonds said last year. “We have particularly in aerodynamics, there seems to be a very strong contingent from France. I hope that we still maintain relative ease of employing Europeans. It’s already very difficult to employ non-Europeans in the UK – in my opinion far too difficult. I hope things don’t get any worse.”
According to Bob Bell, technical director of the Renault F1 team, the auspices aren’t all doom and gloom. “It’s too early to tell what the consequence will be on the future of the supply of engineers in the UK,” he says.
“I think it would be great if the UK could develop a stronger industrial base,” Mr Bell continues. “I think that would be good for the country and I think all of us in Formula 1 would be fully supportive of initiatives that helped develop that. Not only would it potentially provide more engineering candidates for us in recruitment, but I think it would be good for the country as a whole.”
Another factor to be considered is the split bases of operations used by some of the bigger teams. The Mercedes F1 team is based in Brackley, with a separate engine facility in Brixworth, but the company itself is headquartered in Stuttgart.
“For us it has a big impact because from a personal level we don’t know where it’s going to go,” says Mercedes executive director Toto Wolff. “There are many experts working in Brackley and we don’t know how that’s going to be handled in the future. It’s the same in Germany, within the DTM [German touring car] team there are many Brits and it looks like everybody could be impacted by the situation.”
The future supply of engineers in the UK is just one uncertainty facing the sport
THE CONSEQUENCES
While it remains to be seen whether the UK will be able to secure protected rights for expat citizens and some level of freedom over the transport of goods into and across the EU, a worst-case scenario that sees the UK depart the EU without any deal in place could lead to the end of Britain’s current position as a leader in motorsport technology.
Of the ten teams currently involved in F1, seven are based in the UK. But of those seven, four have no solid reason to remain in the UK should Motorsport Valley lose its allure. Renault’s engine department is based outside Paris, and the race team could relocate. Red Bull race from Milton Keynes, but do so under the Austrian flag and with Austrian ownership. Mercedes retain the Stuttgart option, and American outfit Haas are only UK-based because of the strength of the local supply chain and talent pool.
If operating inside a post-Brexit Britain begins to affect the teams – financially, operationally or administratively – there is nothing to hold some of the sport’s biggest names to British soil. Recent years have seen the Italian government working to promote Italy’s own motorsport valley, a cluster in the Modena region that encompasses Ferrari, Toro Rosso, and race chassis manufacturer Dallara, while F1 tyre supplier Pirelli is a short hop away.
The existing high concentration of specialised knowledge and experience – plus an international airport and road network handily placed for the eight truck-based European grands prix that form the backbone of the summer season – makes Emilia-Romagna ideally placed to pick up any of the scattered pieces that are likely to result from a bad exit deal for the UK.
Should the teams elect to stay in situ and use their expertise to make post-Brexit Britain a STEM flagship and world leader in motorsport engineering and technology, there is still the risk that small ripples will have a widespread impact. Operating and import costs have already increased since the June 2016 referendum, and small companies in the supply chain are struggling to balance the books.
“For want of a nail the battle was lost,” as the poem goes. In post-Brexit Formula 1, for the want of a gear lever, motorsport valley and its £9 billion a year could be lost.
Making Britain great again
UK F1 stars
British racing stalwarts – albeit of New Zealand origin – McLaren this month announced that they would be giving their support to the GREAT Britain campaign aimed at highlighting British excellence around the globe, demonstrating to the world at large that Britain remains open for business come what may.
“We’re delighted to be collaborating with the GREAT Britain campaign over the course of the 2017 season to encourage the world to visit, do business with, invest and study in the UK,” said McLaren directors Mansour Ojjeh and Mohammed Bin Essa Al Khalifa at the launch.
“McLaren is a UK-based global sports and technology brand with a strong presence and following across the world that is synonymous with technology and innovation so partnering with the ambition of the GREAT campaign is a natural fit.”
A standard bearer for STEM-related excellence and technological development in the UK, McLaren will be using F1’s global presence as a mobile advertising board, taking British engineering into the Americas and the Far East to demonstrate that – come what may in a post-Brexit world – British engineering remains worthy of investment.
t.sparta6 said:
Yep - the Merc is designed in Britain and built in Britain, while Merc gets the kudos and the cash. Smart.
The Cosworth DFV was funded by Ford, so when it won, it tended to be called the Ford DFV. If it failed, then it was referred to as the Cosworth DFV.Cosworth is no longer the company it used to be under Keith Duckworth and Mike Costin. I think AER probably have better credentials - if someone wants to fund a new engine. Therein lies the real problem.
I rather suspect we are on the verge of seeing privateer engineer builders back in F1. Conditions are nearing the point where this is possible.
The major manufacturers are heading off to Formula E yet still there exists need for the product in F1 (and WEC).
The development costs for the Hybrid units has already been spent and there will be engineers with what is now many years experience in how to design, build and develop such power units who, with a bit of financial backing could set up a private(ish) enterprise to fulfil demand. It's not going to be as easy as converting a road car based V8 block (as was the the case with the DFV IIRC) by any means.
If that does happen, then the UK will almost certainly be the place it happens in,
The major manufacturers are heading off to Formula E yet still there exists need for the product in F1 (and WEC).
The development costs for the Hybrid units has already been spent and there will be engineers with what is now many years experience in how to design, build and develop such power units who, with a bit of financial backing could set up a private(ish) enterprise to fulfil demand. It's not going to be as easy as converting a road car based V8 block (as was the the case with the DFV IIRC) by any means.
If that does happen, then the UK will almost certainly be the place it happens in,
Cosworth have already said they will enter F1 if somebody will stump up the R&D funds, as otherwise its not commercially viable. This is why there are no other independant engine suppliers.
2022 Rules will likely be the same ICE, maybe twin turbo and a simpler large capacity KERS. This will significantly reduce cost and hopefully allow Cosworth to enter the market with a partner/partners
Logical partners = RedBull/Aston Martin
Outside chance = Williams/McLaren
Product will then be sold to other teams like STR/Sauber/Haas?New Entrants
F1 will die without an indy engine supplier as its a major barrier to entry to new teams, unless they forge an (expensive) technical partnership with an existing manufacturer or are happy using year old tech to just make up the numbers there is no way onto the grid
2022 Rules will likely be the same ICE, maybe twin turbo and a simpler large capacity KERS. This will significantly reduce cost and hopefully allow Cosworth to enter the market with a partner/partners
Logical partners = RedBull/Aston Martin
Outside chance = Williams/McLaren
Product will then be sold to other teams like STR/Sauber/Haas?New Entrants
F1 will die without an indy engine supplier as its a major barrier to entry to new teams, unless they forge an (expensive) technical partnership with an existing manufacturer or are happy using year old tech to just make up the numbers there is no way onto the grid
StevieBee said:
The major manufacturers are heading off to Formula E yet still there exists need for the product in F1 (and WEC).
I think the WEC are quite happy with the new LMP2 Gibson V8 thank you very much and would guess that engine could step up for LMP1P with a few mods and bigger/smaller(?) restrictor.Brand new 600bhp engine for 2017 with the 25 that started the Le Mans 24hr race running for 719hrs and covering 143,440km without a single engine failure.
jsf said:
StevieBee said:
It's not going to be as easy as converting a road car based V8 block (as was the the case with the DFV IIRC) by any means.
The DFV was a clean sheet design, there is nothing stock block production about it.The DFV was as I understand it conceived as a pair of FVA (Four Valve Anglia, although it was actually based on the larger Cortina engine) F2 engine top-ends (hence DFV for Dual Four Valve) but evolved some way beyond that before anything got anywhere near actual metal and was at best a very, very distant cousin to anything in a road car.
bigbadbikercats said:
The Repco engine which took Jack Brabham and Denny Hulme to the 1966 and 1967 F1 world championships was built round a stock block (actually a close cousin of the Rover V8 IRRC).
The DFV was as I understand it conceived as a pair of FVA (Four Valve Anglia, although it was actually based on the larger Cortina engine) F2 engine top-ends (hence DFV for Dual Four Valve) but evolved some way beyond that before anything got anywhere near actual metal and was at best a very, very distant cousin to anything in a road car.
The FVA was the proof of concept for Ford heirarchy of the four valve style head and the FVA was effectively a 120e F2 Cortina block with the new head......it was part of the design process of the DFV. I think the BDA and variants can trace their lineage back to the DFV/FVA by virtue the heads are similar with gear driven cams replaced by beltsThe DFV was as I understand it conceived as a pair of FVA (Four Valve Anglia, although it was actually based on the larger Cortina engine) F2 engine top-ends (hence DFV for Dual Four Valve) but evolved some way beyond that before anything got anywhere near actual metal and was at best a very, very distant cousin to anything in a road car.
Edited by M-SportMatt on Wednesday 9th August 12:52
Edited by M-SportMatt on Wednesday 9th August 12:58
bigbadbikercats said:
jsf said:
StevieBee said:
It's not going to be as easy as converting a road car based V8 block (as was the the case with the DFV IIRC) by any means.
The DFV was a clean sheet design, there is nothing stock block production about it.The DFV was as I understand it conceived as a pair of FVA (Four Valve Anglia, although it was actually based on the larger Cortina engine) F2 engine top-ends (hence DFV for Dual Four Valve) but evolved some way beyond that before anything got anywhere near actual metal and was at best a very, very distant cousin to anything in a road car.
Its 100% Cosworth, nothing stock block derived about it. It was the first all new engine Cosworth built. The basic architecture of the head came about through the FVA project, which was designed to use a Ford bottom end, but that's more about working through basic design for combustion efficiency. One of the major steps forward was how it was designed to be a load bearing structure, so you no longer needed to build a space frame chassis aft of the front engine mounts, the engine is the rear chassis, so you bolt all the suspension and gearbox to this, rather than a chassis structure. This added a lot of stiffness and reduced the weight.
The 1966 Repco engine was based on the block used by Oldsmobile for their jetfire turbo project, its a cousin to the engine Rover bought from Buick to make the Rover V8. It wasn't exactly the same and had more head studs than the Buick and Rover version. It was a single OHC unit. For 1967 Repco built their own block, again with a single OHC head. For 1968 they built a double OHC head version again using their own block.
jsf said:
What's Brexit got to do with it?
The currently most dominant engine (drivetrain) is British. British based teams still dominate, the only team on the continent ever able to compete is Ferrari, and to do that they often use non Italian engineers and designers when they are dominant.
Toyota did a reasonable job on the engine side when they entered F1. Not stellar, but better than Honda managed.The currently most dominant engine (drivetrain) is British. British based teams still dominate, the only team on the continent ever able to compete is Ferrari, and to do that they often use non Italian engineers and designers when they are dominant.
Vaud said:
Toyota did a reasonable job on the engine side when they entered F1. Not stellar, but better than Honda managed.
Which Honda? The Honda of 2004-6 was superbToyota were on the face of it a reasonable outfit...until you see how much they were spending, then you can see what a flop it was. If they'd have spent a little more in drivers they would surely have won a few races though.
Vaud said:
Do you mean 2006-08? Ross Brawn disagrees - he thought the power and consumption were out of step with the competition, when he took over - the issue was that Honda was in denial (or lacked the comparative data points)
NopeI mean 2004-6 when they won a race and placed 2nd in constructors and had consistent podiums......Ross Brawn wasn't there then. Dont quibble about BAR, it was still a factory Honda power unit building up to a works team effort and in 2006 it was arguably the most powerful, certainly in the top 2
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