What rule changes do we want in F1 to allow more passing?
Discussion
Spinning off from a number of other threads. Now we are at the summer break in the 2017/18 season, I thought it worth discussing what we have seen from this years cars with their wider tyres and extra aero based grip.
My view is mixed, I think the cars are spectacular and look fabulous through fast corners (particularly fast direction changes), and I'm one of the few that like the hybrid power units. But, I also think the cars are clearly finding it very hard to follow closely enough to pass. We're often seeing cars catch a car in front at a rate of 1 second a lap and then not even be able to get into DRS range due to dirty air.
What do you all want to see as the next step? Do we need to make overtaking made more possible or do we just accept it as very difficult in F1 when the cars are allowed to be very fast (after so many rule changes over the years to slow them down).
My view is mixed, I think the cars are spectacular and look fabulous through fast corners (particularly fast direction changes), and I'm one of the few that like the hybrid power units. But, I also think the cars are clearly finding it very hard to follow closely enough to pass. We're often seeing cars catch a car in front at a rate of 1 second a lap and then not even be able to get into DRS range due to dirty air.
What do you all want to see as the next step? Do we need to make overtaking made more possible or do we just accept it as very difficult in F1 when the cars are allowed to be very fast (after so many rule changes over the years to slow them down).
Hungrymc said:
Spinning off from a number of other threads. Now we are at the summer break in the 2017/18 season, I thought it worth discussing what we have seen from this years cars with their wider tyres and extra aero based grip.
My view is mixed, I think the cars are spectacular and look fabulous through fast corners (particularly fast direction changes), and I'm one of the few that like the hybrid power units. But, I also think the cars are clearly finding it very hard to follow closely enough to pass. We're often seeing cars catch a car in front at a rate of 1 second a lap and then not even be able to get into DRS range due to dirty air.
What do you all want to see as the next step? Do we need to make overtaking made more possible or do we just accept it as very difficult in F1 when the cars are allowed to be very fast (after so many rule changes over the years to slow them down).
It is a good subject as there are clearly huge issues but getting fans to agree is hard enough let alone the powers that be.My view is mixed, I think the cars are spectacular and look fabulous through fast corners (particularly fast direction changes), and I'm one of the few that like the hybrid power units. But, I also think the cars are clearly finding it very hard to follow closely enough to pass. We're often seeing cars catch a car in front at a rate of 1 second a lap and then not even be able to get into DRS range due to dirty air.
What do you all want to see as the next step? Do we need to make overtaking made more possible or do we just accept it as very difficult in F1 when the cars are allowed to be very fast (after so many rule changes over the years to slow them down).
The hybrid engines are here to stay which for me is a mistake but the World is changing very quickly and electric cars will be the highest percentage on the road in 20-30 years time. It is clear governments are now pushing out diesel cars and petrol will soon follow suit. Whether producing electricity is any cleaner is a matter of opinion.
Formula E is gaining pace so either F1 keeps down this hybrid route or reverts back to the V8 etc. period which I am sure most fans would love to see. Sadly I feel this era has gone and you will have to attend historic events if you want your thrills.
The real issues with F1 is the costs. The costs are horrendous. Banning testing etc. to cut costs is pointless when the actual cars are more advanced than a fighter jet. The drivers controls and systems on the steering wheels is beyond a joke now. They state not to use your mobile in a car but expect drivers to adjust systems doing 200+mph. Just crazy.
The biggest headache is the aero. The cars are built to be the fastest on a single lap without following other cars. As soon as you do they become a nightmare. The costs again to produce these aero packages again is just crazy. I personally feel all teams should have a standard front and rear wing which is made for slip streaming. Get rid of DRS and allow the new wings to give the drivers the access to pass without a fake system which no one can defend against.
Yes the cars look great and the speed they can corner is highly impressive but I would rather see close racing than what we have a present. The last GP was terrible. Having a driver move out of the way because a faster teammate can't pass is shocking.
The wider tyres are great to see. These need to be retained. It is one positive.
Finally I want to see more teams in F1. The more teams we have the more drivers will get a chance to get into the sport. The fact that in this moment in time a F1 team would take someone with deep pockets rather than someone very talented just shows that costs need to be cut drastically.
I saw the following on a Facebook feed yesterday.
Basic front and rear wings.
Yes they have push to pass but the wings help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVl2PuojmJg
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 1st August 14:45
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 1st August 14:46
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 1st August 18:53
Ground effect / Active Aero (and not DRS!) Such that a following car might be less affected by the dirty air from the car in front. Go the whole hog and allow air brakes, too. Make it driver controllable via presets on the steering wheel, and it's a whole battery of options for a driver revolving around compromises involving slip streams, drag, grip, ride height & handling, fuel economy, all-out speed, stopping distance...
And there's an opportunity for some of that Tech / learnings could "trickle-down" into road vehicles eventually.
And there's an opportunity for some of that Tech / learnings could "trickle-down" into road vehicles eventually.
I have to say that the new wider cars with wider tyres really do look the part compared with those of the past few years, but the increase in downforce has not improved the racing, indeed it's made it worse.
What is needed is a complete removal of downforce, but I seem to be the only person here who wants that.
What is needed is a complete removal of downforce, but I seem to be the only person here who wants that.
REALIST123 said:
Here we go again.............
Talking about next steps, after seeing the first half of a season under these rules. Don't mistake it for a whinge fest.... Just what would you like to see when the inevitable next rule refresh comes along. Would you like them to improve following? Or go for even more pace?ELUSIVEJIM said:
The biggest headache is the aero. The cars are built to be the fastest on a single lap without following other cars. As soon as you do they become a nightmare. The costs again to produce these aero packages again is just crazy. I personally feel all teams should have a standard front and rear wing which is made for slip streaming. Get rid of DRS and allow the new wings to give the drivers the access to pass without a fake system which no one can defend against.
Yes the cars look great and the speed they can corner is highly impressive but I would rather see close racing than what we have a present. The last GP was terrible. Having a driver move out of the way because a faster teammate can't pass is shocking.
The wider tyres are great to see. These need to be retained. It is one positive.
I pretty much agree - but don't want the pace to suffer too much. The trouble is I guess it's my type of thinking that leads to contrived ideas like DRS. Standard wings, or wings of limited complexity is probably the most likely idea.... but I do wonder about some active aero to enhance DRS (more wing in the corners leading up to DRS activation)... Trouble is it all starts to sound ever more fake.Yes the cars look great and the speed they can corner is highly impressive but I would rather see close racing than what we have a present. The last GP was terrible. Having a driver move out of the way because a faster teammate can't pass is shocking.
The wider tyres are great to see. These need to be retained. It is one positive.
Manual Gearboxes
Flappy paddle gearboxes are now a proven technology so there's no need to keep them in F1 any more. Back in the day racing occasionally used to feature the odd missed gear change facilitating the odd over taking manoeuvre. (Overtaking is that thing where a F1 car would pass another one on the circuit, rather than in the pit stops). It would also bring the benefit of reducing the numbers of gears to perhaps 6 and add to the skills requirerd by the drivers.
Reduction in Aero
Emphasis should be increased more on mechanical grip at the expense of aero. This is an old nut, which the teams object to because it reduces the acreage on the cars they can sell, but F1 cars in 1984 hardly died from a lack of sponsor space did they? I would drastcially simplify the allowed elements in the front wings, dump the canards and certainly those ridiculous little telly-tubby winglets that the Mercedes & Williams have been running this year, for no other reason than that they look stupid.
Reduction in Braking
This will alway be opposed as there is a safety aspect to it, but we need to increase braking distances to facilitate more over taking. A return to steel brakes, with perhaps a limit on size would achieve this. This chance was made in Indycar about 15 years ago.
Dump the telemetry and telematics at race weekends
Aside from reducing costs to teams, we need to get rid of all the telematics where cars can effectively be mapped from one corner to the next. Also removing telemetry would increase the onus on the drivers to provide feedback based on the driving feel and thier preferences. I would argue for an increase in the amount of physical testing but banning of many of the simulators which the teams now use, but not ban CFD.
That's my 2p...
Flappy paddle gearboxes are now a proven technology so there's no need to keep them in F1 any more. Back in the day racing occasionally used to feature the odd missed gear change facilitating the odd over taking manoeuvre. (Overtaking is that thing where a F1 car would pass another one on the circuit, rather than in the pit stops). It would also bring the benefit of reducing the numbers of gears to perhaps 6 and add to the skills requirerd by the drivers.
Reduction in Aero
Emphasis should be increased more on mechanical grip at the expense of aero. This is an old nut, which the teams object to because it reduces the acreage on the cars they can sell, but F1 cars in 1984 hardly died from a lack of sponsor space did they? I would drastcially simplify the allowed elements in the front wings, dump the canards and certainly those ridiculous little telly-tubby winglets that the Mercedes & Williams have been running this year, for no other reason than that they look stupid.
Reduction in Braking
This will alway be opposed as there is a safety aspect to it, but we need to increase braking distances to facilitate more over taking. A return to steel brakes, with perhaps a limit on size would achieve this. This chance was made in Indycar about 15 years ago.
Dump the telemetry and telematics at race weekends
Aside from reducing costs to teams, we need to get rid of all the telematics where cars can effectively be mapped from one corner to the next. Also removing telemetry would increase the onus on the drivers to provide feedback based on the driving feel and thier preferences. I would argue for an increase in the amount of physical testing but banning of many of the simulators which the teams now use, but not ban CFD.
That's my 2p...
corozin said:
Manual Gearboxes
Flappy paddle gearboxes are now a proven technology so there's no need to keep them in F1 any more. Back in the day racing occasionally used to feature the odd missed gear change facilitating the odd over taking manoeuvre. (Overtaking is that thing where a F1 car would pass another one on the circuit, rather than in the pit stops). It would also bring the benefit of reducing the numbers of gears to perhaps 6 and add to the skills requirerd by the drivers.
Reduction in Aero
Emphasis should be increased more on mechanical grip at the expense of aero. This is an old nut, which the teams object to because it reduces the acreage on the cars they can sell, but F1 cars in 1984 hardly died from a lack of sponsor space did they? I would drastcially simplify the allowed elements in the front wings, dump the canards and certainly those ridiculous little telly-tubby winglets that the Mercedes & Williams have been running this year, for no other reason than that they look stupid.
Reduction in Braking
This will alway be opposed as there is a safety aspect to it, but we need to increase braking distances to facilitate more over taking. A return to steel brakes, with perhaps a limit on size would achieve this. This chance was made in Indycar about 15 years ago.
Dump the telemetry and telematics at race weekends
Aside from reducing costs to teams, we need to get rid of all the telematics where cars can effectively be mapped from one corner to the next. Also removing telemetry would increase the onus on the drivers to provide feedback based on the driving feel and thier preferences. I would argue for an increase in the amount of physical testing but banning of many of the simulators which the teams now use, but not ban CFD.
That's my 2p...
That's a good 2p Flappy paddle gearboxes are now a proven technology so there's no need to keep them in F1 any more. Back in the day racing occasionally used to feature the odd missed gear change facilitating the odd over taking manoeuvre. (Overtaking is that thing where a F1 car would pass another one on the circuit, rather than in the pit stops). It would also bring the benefit of reducing the numbers of gears to perhaps 6 and add to the skills requirerd by the drivers.
Reduction in Aero
Emphasis should be increased more on mechanical grip at the expense of aero. This is an old nut, which the teams object to because it reduces the acreage on the cars they can sell, but F1 cars in 1984 hardly died from a lack of sponsor space did they? I would drastcially simplify the allowed elements in the front wings, dump the canards and certainly those ridiculous little telly-tubby winglets that the Mercedes & Williams have been running this year, for no other reason than that they look stupid.
Reduction in Braking
This will alway be opposed as there is a safety aspect to it, but we need to increase braking distances to facilitate more over taking. A return to steel brakes, with perhaps a limit on size would achieve this. This chance was made in Indycar about 15 years ago.
Dump the telemetry and telematics at race weekends
Aside from reducing costs to teams, we need to get rid of all the telematics where cars can effectively be mapped from one corner to the next. Also removing telemetry would increase the onus on the drivers to provide feedback based on the driving feel and thier preferences. I would argue for an increase in the amount of physical testing but banning of many of the simulators which the teams now use, but not ban CFD.
That's my 2p...
ELUSIVEJIM said:
That's a good 2p
Indeed it is; I'd agree with all that, with a slight modification to the aero - I would go with complete removal of the wings, plus the entire bottom of the car to be flat, plus a minimum ground clearance of, for example 50mm..Edited by Evangelion on Wednesday 2nd August 01:52
ELUSIVEJIM said:
It is a good subject as there are clearly huge issues but getting fans to agree is hard enough let alone the powers that be.
The hybrid engines are here to stay which for me is a mistake but the World is changing very quickly and electric cars will be the highest percentage on the road in 20-30 years time. It is clear governments are now pushing out diesel cars and petrol will soon follow suit. Whether producing electricity is any cleaner is a matter of opinion.
Formula E is gaining pace so either F1 keeps down this hybrid route or reverts back to the V8 etc. period which I am sure most fans would love to see. Sadly I feel this era has gone and you will have to attend historic events if you want your thrills.
The real issues with F1 is the costs. The costs are horrendous. Banning testing etc. to cut costs is pointless when the actual cars are more advanced than a fighter jet. The drivers controls and systems on the steering wheels is beyond a joke now. They state not to use your mobile in a car but expect drivers to adjust systems doing 200+mph. Just crazy.
The biggest headache is the aero. The cars are built to be the fastest on a single lap without following other cars. As soon as you do they become a nightmare. The costs again to produce these aero packages again is just crazy. I personally feel all teams should have a standard front and rear wing which is made for slip streaming. Get rid of DRS and allow the new wings to give the drivers the access to pass without a fake system which no one can defend against.
Yes the cars look great and the speed they can corner is highly impressive but I would rather see close racing than what we have a present. The last GP was terrible. Having a driver move out of the way because a faster teammate can't pass is shocking.
The wider tyres are great to see. These need to be retained. It is one positive.
Finally I want to see more teams in F1. The more teams we have the more drivers will get a chance to get into the sport. The fact that in this moment in time a F1 team would take someone with deep pockets rather than someone very talented just shows that costs need to be cut drastically.
I saw the following on a Facebook feed yesterday.
Basic front and rear wings.
Yes they have push to pass but the wings help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVl2PuojmJg
Kind of summarises what many others are saying/thinking.The hybrid engines are here to stay which for me is a mistake but the World is changing very quickly and electric cars will be the highest percentage on the road in 20-30 years time. It is clear governments are now pushing out diesel cars and petrol will soon follow suit. Whether producing electricity is any cleaner is a matter of opinion.
Formula E is gaining pace so either F1 keeps down this hybrid route or reverts back to the V8 etc. period which I am sure most fans would love to see. Sadly I feel this era has gone and you will have to attend historic events if you want your thrills.
The real issues with F1 is the costs. The costs are horrendous. Banning testing etc. to cut costs is pointless when the actual cars are more advanced than a fighter jet. The drivers controls and systems on the steering wheels is beyond a joke now. They state not to use your mobile in a car but expect drivers to adjust systems doing 200+mph. Just crazy.
The biggest headache is the aero. The cars are built to be the fastest on a single lap without following other cars. As soon as you do they become a nightmare. The costs again to produce these aero packages again is just crazy. I personally feel all teams should have a standard front and rear wing which is made for slip streaming. Get rid of DRS and allow the new wings to give the drivers the access to pass without a fake system which no one can defend against.
Yes the cars look great and the speed they can corner is highly impressive but I would rather see close racing than what we have a present. The last GP was terrible. Having a driver move out of the way because a faster teammate can't pass is shocking.
The wider tyres are great to see. These need to be retained. It is one positive.
Finally I want to see more teams in F1. The more teams we have the more drivers will get a chance to get into the sport. The fact that in this moment in time a F1 team would take someone with deep pockets rather than someone very talented just shows that costs need to be cut drastically.
I saw the following on a Facebook feed yesterday.
Basic front and rear wings.
Yes they have push to pass but the wings help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVl2PuojmJg
Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Tuesday 1st August 14:45
Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Tuesday 1st August 14:46
Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Tuesday 1st August 18:53
I'm sorry to say that I'm now hearing more than ever that friends and family F1 fans have had their fill of F1 'racing'.
They also say it really is now starting to feel out of step with the world and it's just not fun anymore.
Some of the responses being generated here seem to suggest F1 converts to Formula Ford-like cars to introduce the fun factor for both driver and spectator. Sort of confirms the theory that sometimes less is more.
It will be interesting to see how F1 reacts as this may be a critical juncture in its history.
Limit the number of elements in the front wing, they are amazing pieces of art but they must be costing a fortune.
Free up the use of KERS, unlimited power. If you can recover/generate it you can use it.
Allow more engines per season, Christian Horner made a good argument for this at the weekend.
Only limit the fuel, 100 liters per race.
More testing.
Alternatively, have a very open formula where pretty much anything goes and the only restriction is fuel.
Free up the use of KERS, unlimited power. If you can recover/generate it you can use it.
Allow more engines per season, Christian Horner made a good argument for this at the weekend.
Only limit the fuel, 100 liters per race.
More testing.
Alternatively, have a very open formula where pretty much anything goes and the only restriction is fuel.
Remove qualifying, at the moment with current aero, qualify well and watch your opposition struggle to overtake. If you were not guaranteed your starting position the maybe you concentrate on building a car with more emphasis on its ability to overtake rather than qualifying overtake, two races with 2nd grid a reverse of the first, grid position by calculation such that at seasons end everyone has the same total grid numbers.
I am sure the idea is flawed ...but it was shooting from the hip
I am sure the idea is flawed ...but it was shooting from the hip
It's all down to the question F1 is too scared to ask - what should F1 be?
1. F1 should be the fastest racing series.
OK, ramp up the aero, engine power and driver aids - ultimately to driver-less cars that drive every lap perfectly.
You WON'T get close racing due to the areo though and it will be more about the technology than the driver.
2. F1 should be abut the best drivers, not the best technology.
OK, dump all the driver aids and give them identical cars.
Why not just go watch Formula Renault or one of the other one-make series?
3. F1 should have lots of overtaking.
OK, dump the areo and give them tyres that can last a whole season, so you can take a different line without hitting a sea of rubber marbles and a bit of dust doesn't make much relative difference to grip levels.
Yes, the racing will be exciting with lots of overtaking - but F2 cars will be faster.
4. F1 should be the most technically advanced racing series (or at least more advanced than a VW Golf).
OK, strip the rules right back and let the teams go wild. If a Golf can have ABS and traction control why not an F1 car? Also why not have active suspension/side skirts/sucker fans/etc?
Great...for the 4 teams that can afford to be competitive, but 1 team will always dominate and it won't be about the driver.
There's a load more you could add to the list but the problem is you can't have them all...
1. F1 should be the fastest racing series.
OK, ramp up the aero, engine power and driver aids - ultimately to driver-less cars that drive every lap perfectly.
You WON'T get close racing due to the areo though and it will be more about the technology than the driver.
2. F1 should be abut the best drivers, not the best technology.
OK, dump all the driver aids and give them identical cars.
Why not just go watch Formula Renault or one of the other one-make series?
3. F1 should have lots of overtaking.
OK, dump the areo and give them tyres that can last a whole season, so you can take a different line without hitting a sea of rubber marbles and a bit of dust doesn't make much relative difference to grip levels.
Yes, the racing will be exciting with lots of overtaking - but F2 cars will be faster.
4. F1 should be the most technically advanced racing series (or at least more advanced than a VW Golf).
OK, strip the rules right back and let the teams go wild. If a Golf can have ABS and traction control why not an F1 car? Also why not have active suspension/side skirts/sucker fans/etc?
Great...for the 4 teams that can afford to be competitive, but 1 team will always dominate and it won't be about the driver.
There's a load more you could add to the list but the problem is you can't have them all...
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