Discussion
It seems to me that the drivers are starting to take the mickey by using the run off areas when they out brake themselves. In yesterdays Mexico GP it was unbelievable how Hamilton and Rosberg escaped penalties for cutting corners. The third blatant one was Max vs. Vettel which probably changed the outcome of the race. There needs to be some kind of deterrent to using the run off areas to gain an advantage, that isn't reliant upon the stewards' decision. It wouldn't have been an easy call giving Hamilton a 10s penalty early in yesterdays race, but it would have been justified. Glazed brake disc...hmmm
Gravel is unsafe, grass is too smooth, and wet grass is hardly safe either. Tarmac seems to be the best option but what's needed is a physical barrier so that the driver can't just keep their foot in and rejoin without losing time.
What they could do is tarmac the run off so that cars can brake and turn, but install some kind of ramp/speed bump. Lets say a very shallow ramp that's about 100mm tall that can be driven over safely up to about 120kph. Any faster and it could damage the car. The 'ramps' could be staggered to form a chicane so the driver has the option of driving between them. A lightweight foam bollard could be placed at each end to aid visibility.
Drivers only out brake themselves when they know they can get away with it. That's why we are seeing more and more of it.
Gravel is unsafe, grass is too smooth, and wet grass is hardly safe either. Tarmac seems to be the best option but what's needed is a physical barrier so that the driver can't just keep their foot in and rejoin without losing time.
What they could do is tarmac the run off so that cars can brake and turn, but install some kind of ramp/speed bump. Lets say a very shallow ramp that's about 100mm tall that can be driven over safely up to about 120kph. Any faster and it could damage the car. The 'ramps' could be staggered to form a chicane so the driver has the option of driving between them. A lightweight foam bollard could be placed at each end to aid visibility.
Drivers only out brake themselves when they know they can get away with it. That's why we are seeing more and more of it.
Oz83 said:
Rosberg escaped penalties for cutting corners.
I agree that something should be done, but not at the expense of safety, and it should be noted that Rosberg was quite clearly pushed onto the run-off (the stewards decision, as well), so hardly using it to intentionally gain an advantage. If they are going to seriously tighten up on it, they also need to come down extremely hard on drivers pushing others out. That all said, the first corner would be very hard to regulate given cold brakes/tyres and the significant chance of chain reactions.Hamilton yesterday is the interesting example, as it was it was nullified by the safety car, but if you're to penalise a driver for a mistake of that magnitude, what penalty do you apply?
Adding bollards / humps etc is all well and good until a driver has some sort of a failure or collision which sends him towards an object designed to slow a driver in control down, but is likely to fire an out of control driver into the air.
In my opinion the main thing to do would be to consistently and rigorously apply track limits to the letter of the law. None of this 'they decided wide is ok at turn 7 in the drivers briefing nonsense'. Come down hard every single time a driver fully crosses the white line when it's clearly his fault (i.e. one warning then a drive through). It might be carnage for a few weeks but they would soon get the message.
Edited by ukaskew on Monday 31st October 09:54
I kind of agree with the general sentiment, although gravel traps always felt a bit 'final' for a single mistake. However, some of the stuff you've waffled about up there doesn't help your cause.
If so, how would you like him penalised for avoiding a two-car, first corner pile-up?
Oz83 said:
Rosberg escaped penalties for cutting corners
I'm no Nico fan, but are you referring to the (racing) incident where he clashed wheels with Max ahead of the apex and was unable to make the line he needed to go around the corner without taking them both off?If so, how would you like him penalised for avoiding a two-car, first corner pile-up?
Oz83 said:
Drivers only out brake themselves when they know they can get away with it
This is speculative nonsense, that you've effectively made up to support your opinion.ukaskew said:
Hamilton yesterday is the interesting example, as it was it was nullified by the safety car, but if you're to penalise a driver for a mistake of that magnitude, what penalty do you apply?
in all fairness to Hamilton it was a car issue that lead to his off...having a glazed brake disk which is 100 degrees lower than his other lead to the off.....and youre right at least the advantage was nullifiedEdited by ukaskew on Monday 31st October 09:54
C70R said:
I kind of agree with the general sentiment, although gravel traps always felt a bit 'final' for a single mistake. However, some of the stuff you've waffled about up there doesn't help your cause.
If so, how would you like him penalised for avoiding a two-car, first corner pile-up?
He's got a point. A driver is more likely to brake that bit later if he knows he can rejoin if he goes wide. F1 is about pushing the limits.Oz83 said:
Rosberg escaped penalties for cutting corners
I'm no Nico fan, but are you referring to the (racing) incident where he clashed wheels with Max ahead of the apex and was unable to make the line he needed to go around the corner without taking them both off?If so, how would you like him penalised for avoiding a two-car, first corner pile-up?
Oz83 said:
Drivers only out brake themselves when they know they can get away with it
This is speculative nonsense, that you've effectively made up to support your opinion.How about some flat, flexible, vertical bollards that will bend if you drive over them and then return to their upright position? There could be a gap in them for people returning to the track after an off, but the gap would be positioned such that you'd lose time taking the correct route to get though said gap. If you were pushed off by someone else you could drive straight over the bollards to return to the track, thus limiting the damage done to your position in the race.
MitchT said:
How about some flat, flexible, vertical bollards that will bend if you drive over them and then return to their upright position? There could be a gap in them for people returning to the track after an off, but the gap would be positioned such that you'd lose time taking the correct route to get though said gap. If you were pushed off by someone else you could drive straight over the bollards to return to the track, thus limiting the damage done to your position in the race.
You don't necessarily even need a physical object. If it's a common spot for overshooting they just need to paint a mark on the side of the track, you have to return to the track prior to that mark to continue without being penalised. If memory serves correctly they had such a system in Russia at a certain corner.Everything else can just be policed by robust stewarding and Charlie growing a pair and not allowing certain corners to be taken wide without penalty.
Seems to me what's needed at Mehico T1 is similar to what's at Les Combes at Spa iirc. They have some tarmac run off with some artificial speedbumps/chicanes which basically mean you can navigate your way out after locking up/overshooting but it will cost you 50+ yards worth of track position.
Simples.
Simples.
DoubleD said:
He's got a point. A driver is more likely to brake that bit later if he knows he can rejoin if he goes wide. F1 is about pushing the limits.
I think it's a combination of that and of when they do brake a bit late they're faced with a choice of continuing to slow for the corner, costing them speed, possibly position and knackering their linglongs or saving speed, tyres and position by taking to the tarmac run off and chancing it with the stewards.I reckon they should leave it as tarmac but scatter a few nails around like a Kwik Fit car park.
A high tech solution would be the car identifying it'd gone outside the bounds of the track. Then do something like 10 seconds of 50% power the next time the throttle is reapplied.
You might even be able to do it with the existing camera on the car, given the nice clear white lines along the edge of the circuit.
You might even be able to do it with the existing camera on the car, given the nice clear white lines along the edge of the circuit.
ukaskew said:
You don't necessarily even need a physical object. If it's a common spot for overshooting they just need to paint a mark on the side of the track, you have to return to the track prior to that mark to continue without being penalised. If memory serves correctly they had such a system in Russia at a certain corner.
I thought of that too but the issue I can see there is just how difficult it is to see lines painted on the track from within an F1 car. Visibility of ground level stuff is awful from those things.
DoubleD said:
C70R said:
I kind of agree with the general sentiment, although gravel traps always felt a bit 'final' for a single mistake. However, some of the stuff you've waffled about up there doesn't help your cause.
If so, how would you like him penalised for avoiding a two-car, first corner pile-up?
He's got a point. A driver is more likely to brake that bit later if he knows he can rejoin if he goes wide. F1 is about pushing the limits.Oz83 said:
Rosberg escaped penalties for cutting corners
I'm no Nico fan, but are you referring to the (racing) incident where he clashed wheels with Max ahead of the apex and was unable to make the line he needed to go around the corner without taking them both off?If so, how would you like him penalised for avoiding a two-car, first corner pile-up?
Oz83 said:
Drivers only out brake themselves when they know they can get away with it
This is speculative nonsense, that you've effectively made up to support your opinion.Correct application of the current system would do for me...
C70R said:
DoubleD said:
C70R said:
I kind of agree with the general sentiment, although gravel traps always felt a bit 'final' for a single mistake. However, some of the stuff you've waffled about up there doesn't help your cause.
If so, how would you like him penalised for avoiding a two-car, first corner pile-up?
He's got a point. A driver is more likely to brake that bit later if he knows he can rejoin if he goes wide. F1 is about pushing the limits.Oz83 said:
Rosberg escaped penalties for cutting corners
I'm no Nico fan, but are you referring to the (racing) incident where he clashed wheels with Max ahead of the apex and was unable to make the line he needed to go around the corner without taking them both off?If so, how would you like him penalised for avoiding a two-car, first corner pile-up?
Oz83 said:
Drivers only out brake themselves when they know they can get away with it
This is speculative nonsense, that you've effectively made up to support your opinion.Correct application of the current system would do for me...
Cover the run offs with the grooved stuff used for shopping trolley escalator ramps, moving to the barriers on the outside of the run off. As soon as they drive off the track, they are stuck there, and they have to wait until the car comes off the other side of the run off before they can move the car again.
Edited by ajprice on Monday 31st October 12:56
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