Discussion
Ferrari really are in a terrible situation going forward into 2017.
They have lost technical director James Allison to Renault and his replacement Mattia Binotto is more an engine guy than aero which is very dangerous with the new regulations for 2017.
Ferrari seem to have good pace during Friday and Saturday mornings but again when it comes to qualifying and the race they struggle.
Red Bull are clearly faster than Ferrari now which considering their engine issues is again a black mark against Ferrari's development.
Vettel is clearly not happy with what is going on behind the scenes and it is reported the relationship in the team is strained.
The decisions by the strategy team this year has been shocking to say the least. You would think heads would be rolling but can they afford to lose anyone else so close to 2017.
Ferrari since the Michael Schumacher days has promised so much yet apart from Kimi's Championship back in 2007 it has been a long 9 years away from Drivers Championship success and 8 years since the last constructors Championship.
Is Ferrari now a team as a Champion you do not want to move too? Yes the money and the chance to be in the biggest team in F1 is very drawing but without success will it be enough?
Thoughts
They have lost technical director James Allison to Renault and his replacement Mattia Binotto is more an engine guy than aero which is very dangerous with the new regulations for 2017.
Ferrari seem to have good pace during Friday and Saturday mornings but again when it comes to qualifying and the race they struggle.
Red Bull are clearly faster than Ferrari now which considering their engine issues is again a black mark against Ferrari's development.
Vettel is clearly not happy with what is going on behind the scenes and it is reported the relationship in the team is strained.
The decisions by the strategy team this year has been shocking to say the least. You would think heads would be rolling but can they afford to lose anyone else so close to 2017.
Ferrari since the Michael Schumacher days has promised so much yet apart from Kimi's Championship back in 2007 it has been a long 9 years away from Drivers Championship success and 8 years since the last constructors Championship.
Is Ferrari now a team as a Champion you do not want to move too? Yes the money and the chance to be in the biggest team in F1 is very drawing but without success will it be enough?
Thoughts
They seem to make the same mistakes time and again.
I remember, in the days of active suspension, Frank Williams saying how bewildered he was to discover that Ferrari came with new reservoirs to each race when Williams had theirs reconditioned and tested. William's savings were of a level of 2/3rds the price. He said something along the lines of preferring reconditioning in any case as he put a tried and tested unit on the car every time. Apart from the first race of the season I suppose.
There is this boast almost to say that they pick Italian team members if at all possible.
Why?
I remember, in the days of active suspension, Frank Williams saying how bewildered he was to discover that Ferrari came with new reservoirs to each race when Williams had theirs reconditioned and tested. William's savings were of a level of 2/3rds the price. He said something along the lines of preferring reconditioning in any case as he put a tried and tested unit on the car every time. Apart from the first race of the season I suppose.
There is this boast almost to say that they pick Italian team members if at all possible.
Why?
Allison, whilst out of Ferrari is not returning to Renault - allegedly he turned them down because of the power struggle thats going on between the various top bods. This apparently put Perez off joining too.
Nevertheless, Ferrari are in a bit of a spot. To be honest, other than the Brawn/Schumacher era they've always been in a fairly similar situation since the mid 80s or so in that they've had a good car, but rarely a brilliant one.
Marchionne keeps banging his fists, demanding results but appears to be a bit toothless in sorting it out. I don't think sacking anyone else is going to help, but clearly they need to make some changes and get some expertise in. The difficulty with that is I think everyone regards them as a bit of a poisoned chalice right now.
I wonder what the old man would have done for his precious racing cars, probably try to get some sort of advantage over other teams with tyre supply / bending of the rules or whatever. Those days are long gone and I think Ferrari realise they have less weight to throw around now.
Nevertheless, Ferrari are in a bit of a spot. To be honest, other than the Brawn/Schumacher era they've always been in a fairly similar situation since the mid 80s or so in that they've had a good car, but rarely a brilliant one.
Marchionne keeps banging his fists, demanding results but appears to be a bit toothless in sorting it out. I don't think sacking anyone else is going to help, but clearly they need to make some changes and get some expertise in. The difficulty with that is I think everyone regards them as a bit of a poisoned chalice right now.
I wonder what the old man would have done for his precious racing cars, probably try to get some sort of advantage over other teams with tyre supply / bending of the rules or whatever. Those days are long gone and I think Ferrari realise they have less weight to throw around now.
They do seem to have a really poor corporate culture. The Schumacher years came at the end of years in the desert and were pretty much the making of a dream team built around a #1 driver. I think the lure of having that is what appealed to Alonso and probably Vettel, but in their frustration it's as though the old ways have seeped back in and rolling heads have made an environment where the best wouldn't want to work.
The way they don't seem to be doing press conferences, and the change in PR since the loss of Montezemolo is as fascinating as listening to Red Bull slag off the engine supplier who had just given them 4xWDC's or McLaren refusing to criticize Honda for the grenade they'd fitted to the back of their car in 2015.
Stefano Domenicali "resigning" only to be replaced by a stand-in doesn't really smack of having a plan either.
The way they don't seem to be doing press conferences, and the change in PR since the loss of Montezemolo is as fascinating as listening to Red Bull slag off the engine supplier who had just given them 4xWDC's or McLaren refusing to criticize Honda for the grenade they'd fitted to the back of their car in 2015.
Stefano Domenicali "resigning" only to be replaced by a stand-in doesn't really smack of having a plan either.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Ferrari need a Ross Brawn type character to take control.
Someone who will just take the lead and sort out the whole mess.
They already have that in Marchionne who is apparently a control freak / micro manager but unfortunately lacks the F1 experience. Someone who will just take the lead and sort out the whole mess.
I suspect they will run around like headless chickens over the winter hiring (Lowe?) and firing (Arrivabene?) various people but I can't see that helping much. Allison was supposed to be their savior but he only lasted 5 minutes. They have two great drivers, a great team and a ton of resources.... the problem is everyone is scared s
tless of making a mistake and as a result they are constantly on the defensive. Just look at the way they handled the press after qualifying yesterday. How can any innovation occur in that kind of atmosphere?Vettel is clearly very cheesed off as well and there are no signs of 2017 being any better, but the problem is his stock has fallen so he really has nowhere to go.
We had a fascinating little view into Ferrari at a baggage carrousel in an airport recently. With most teams the first people to get through passport control will start unloading their colleagues' bags as soon as they arrive (they all look the same, so it's pretty straightforward), but this doesn't happen with Ferrari. Nope, instead there were 75 people gathered around the conveyor, getting in everyone else's way, watching all the other red bags go past until their own one turned up. They didn't help each other in any way - in other words there was no team work, it was every man for himself. We couldn't help but wonder if that reflected the operations of the team as a whole.
That's an interesting observation. I get the impression that they were a very close-knit team during the Schumacher/Brawn/etc. era and that this was why it worked so well. Something must have gone wrong since. On a lighter note, they could boost their budget by installing a swear box in Seb's car.
Seems to me that Alonso and Vettel bought into the Schumacher myth. Surely it was the team that Ross Brawn put together and managed that won all those championships.
I'm fascinated to see how Mercedes perform next year - it'll be their first all new car/concept that they've built since Brawn left. I don't see Toto/Niki filling his role. I suspect they will become occasional winners.
I'm fascinated to see how Mercedes perform next year - it'll be their first all new car/concept that they've built since Brawn left. I don't see Toto/Niki filling his role. I suspect they will become occasional winners.
I think I read a comment by Brawn in the Telegraph piece suggesting the culture is now all wrong with fear of failure/ job loss at the lead. Allison's departure was for very sad personal reasons but they do seem to revert back wherever they can to appointing Italians rather than looking at the larger pool.
Arrivebene was a strange appointment, he hardly has a racing background more a marketing man, it's been suggested he was appointed to maximise the benefit to Ferrari on the political side of F1!
Will Paddy Lowe go there? they need something like that to shake them up
Arrivebene was a strange appointment, he hardly has a racing background more a marketing man, it's been suggested he was appointed to maximise the benefit to Ferrari on the political side of F1!
Will Paddy Lowe go there? they need something like that to shake them up
rev-erend said:
They are in better shape results wise than McLaren..
Sometimes the difference between a mid ranking and the top teams is just a touch of genius like Adrian Newey or Ross Brawn.
I think I read somewhere that prior to Mercedes recent dominance something like 85% of Championships had been won by teams where Newey or Brawn were involved, one could argue that Brawn was the catalyst to Mercedes dominance as wellSometimes the difference between a mid ranking and the top teams is just a touch of genius like Adrian Newey or Ross Brawn.
F355GTS said:
I think I read somewhere that prior to Mercedes recent dominance something like 85% of Championships had been won by teams where Newey or Brawn were involved, one could argue that Brawn was the catalyst to Mercedes dominance as well
That would be pretty impossible given that neither of them are that old!Flooble said:
F355GTS said:
I think I read somewhere that prior to Mercedes recent dominance something like 85% of Championships had been won by teams where Newey or Brawn were involved, one could argue that Brawn was the catalyst to Mercedes dominance as well
That would be pretty impossible given that neither of them are that old!ukaskew said:
Would Ferrari, oddly, be a better team if they were based in the UK? With all their hiring and firing I'd be amazed if there is any national talent left who haven't already worked there.
Didn't they try that briefly, albeit just the design studio. I think it was for a year or two when John Barnard was the top man. (that's all from memory and probably wrong)Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff