Discussion
Should the limits be rigorously enforced, or do we just let them get on with it?
Where is the limit set:
1 Wheel, whist power over steering, Ok,
2 Wheels, 1st occurrence = a warning, 2nd occurrence = a penalty
More then 2 Wheels, drive thru
Should the white line track limit be reworked to slightly destabilise a car and slow it down???
There are penalties for short cutting a chicane, but not for gaining an advantage by "expanding" the track
Where is the limit set:
1 Wheel, whist power over steering, Ok,
2 Wheels, 1st occurrence = a warning, 2nd occurrence = a penalty
More then 2 Wheels, drive thru
Should the white line track limit be reworked to slightly destabilise a car and slow it down???
There are penalties for short cutting a chicane, but not for gaining an advantage by "expanding" the track
eybic said:
In theory looking at it in a black and white fashion then imo the track ends at the white line, go over this and you should be penalised. They should think of it as a wall rather than not really meaning much.
The kerbs are outside the 'walls' though, so this would imply that your track limits rules are more strict than those currently in place and you'd like to see the cars driving on the grey only? At club level, if you go four tyres over the line you are exceeding track limits, however half of one tyre on the line and three and a half off is fine. I like this. The drivers aggressively hitting the kerbs adds to the spectacle.
What I don't like is situations like at Hungary where (IIRC) three corners were policed by an invisible and binary robotic system but drivers were able to repeatedly go four wheels off at other corners... It was much the same at Silverstone.
As a spectator, I want to be able to see if the driver is going outside track limits, and if it's just a tyre touching the line then, as in tennis, it's easy to see if part of a tyre is touching the line.
Beyond the kerb, astroturf is a very effective deterrent if it's even slightly damp. If you've been wide at Copse or Pouhon for example you'll agree. A surface which guarantees that you'll lose time if you end up with a tyre or more on the other side of the kerb by ensuring that the rest of your tyres will quickly follow. Surely F1 could come up with some painted or coated low grip strip which will drag drivers wide onto the runoff?
HustleRussell said:
The kerbs are outside the 'walls' though, so this would imply that your track limits rules are more strict than those currently in place and you'd like to see the cars driving on the grey only?
That's right, in my mind what is the point in having a line to signify the edge of the track if it's ignored?eybic said:
HustleRussell said:
The kerbs are outside the 'walls' though, so this would imply that your track limits rules are more strict than those currently in place and you'd like to see the cars driving on the grey only?
That's right, in my mind what is the point in having a line to signify the edge of the track if it's ignored?I'd like to see them just put a narrow strip of something with absolutely no grip immediately outside the kerbs, probably with tarmac beyond that for safety's sake. Rather than solving the problem with penalties, let them go beyond the track limits but make it a clear disadvantage to do so; that way they can still push the limits and survive if they get it wrong but they can't gain an advantage from intentionally taking the car beyond the track.
I'm with Toto on this one it's up to the drivers to find the quickest route - if they want to drive off the track that's fine by me - so long as they don't shorten the circuit that's OK.
However the rule about forcing another car off track should still apply, obviously.
And it also becomes slightly complicated in yellow flag zones - leaving the track, except in avoiding action, would be an indication that they are ignoring the yellow - areas off the track are usually lower grip, it could therefore be dangerous.
However the rule about forcing another car off track should still apply, obviously.
And it also becomes slightly complicated in yellow flag zones - leaving the track, except in avoiding action, would be an indication that they are ignoring the yellow - areas off the track are usually lower grip, it could therefore be dangerous.
The MSA set out what they consider to be track limits(link below) (thank you Mr J Palmer)the problem with making kerbs more "aggressive" is that creates serious safety issues for the bike guys.
https://www.msauk.org/assets/tracklimitsguidance-3...
https://www.msauk.org/assets/tracklimitsguidance-3...
Mr_Thyroid said:
I'm with Toto on this one it's up to the drivers to find the quickest route - if they want to drive off the track that's fine by me - so long as they don't shorten the circuit that's OK.
But if you can drive anywhere on the outside to set a faster laptime that's ok? Despite not being the circuit design that you are supposed to be racing on?I think the current UK rules are the correct interpretation. Or we say the winner is the first car where the whole car is over the line not the first part of the car to cross the line.
Between the lines is the circuit, where you might make a few errors there are kerbs, you can use them without penalty. Otherwise it's outside track limits, and if you're unable to stay within the lines on a consistent basis either get an eye test or hand the licence back.
Kerbs are fair game and always have been. It's when you drive past the kerb and on to the tarmac outside it that there's a problem.
How about electronic sensors on the corners where track limits will make a difference, which tell a car when it's exceeded track limits. Red lights on the dash, gain three of them and DRS and KERS are disabled for a lap...
How about electronic sensors on the corners where track limits will make a difference, which tell a car when it's exceeded track limits. Red lights on the dash, gain three of them and DRS and KERS are disabled for a lap...
Munter said:
Mr_Thyroid said:
I'm with Toto on this one it's up to the drivers to find the quickest route - if they want to drive off the track that's fine by me - so long as they don't shorten the circuit that's OK.
But if you can drive anywhere on the outside to set a faster laptime that's ok? Despite not being the circuit design that you are supposed to be racing on?I think the current UK rules are the correct interpretation. Or we say the winner is the first car where the whole car is over the line not the first part of the car to cross the line.
Between the lines is the circuit, where you might make a few errors there are kerbs, you can use them without penalty. Otherwise it's outside track limits, and if you're unable to stay within the lines on a consistent basis either get an eye test or hand the licence back.
Drumroll said:
The MSA set out what they consider to be track limits(link below) (thank you Mr J Palmer)the problem with making kerbs more "aggressive" is that creates serious safety issues for the bike guys.
https://www.msauk.org/assets/tracklimitsguidance-3...
Yep. I have experience https://www.msauk.org/assets/tracklimitsguidance-3...
Was racing at Mallory Park one day, came out of Gerards, ran onto the rumble strip and the front of the bike crossed up under me. Wasn't an immediate problem as the front was light because it was under power.....but I remember thinking it was an unusual reaction for the bike to make, as I'd not had it before.
I found out why when I started braking at the end of the straight, and the bike went everywhere - the front tyre had blown out on the kerbing
Took me down onto the deck still at circa a ton, and once I had stopped, I was rewarded with a shoulder separation. My collar bone still sticks up, 15 years later
Anyway, looking at the tyre, a racing slick, there was a perfect 'half square' puncture in it so to speak - two joined-up tears, 90 degrees to each other, about two inches long each, perfectly matching the shape of the edge of the kerbing.
Made a complaint to the Track owners which of course fell on deaf ears. I just had to lump a nasty injury and a trashed bike. Not happy
Thread resurrection after last weekend's track limits controversy...
Wouldn't it be fairly simple to fit the cars with a sensor which detects a wire buried in the edge of the track approximately half a car's width from the white line marking the edge of the track ? If the sensor is triggered it would mean that the centreline of the car is half the car's width from the track, therefore it must have all 4 wheels over the line.
If such a sensor was fitted it could either send a signal to the stewards, or even automatically cut engine power for 5s each time
Wouldn't it be fairly simple to fit the cars with a sensor which detects a wire buried in the edge of the track approximately half a car's width from the white line marking the edge of the track ? If the sensor is triggered it would mean that the centreline of the car is half the car's width from the track, therefore it must have all 4 wheels over the line.
If such a sensor was fitted it could either send a signal to the stewards, or even automatically cut engine power for 5s each time
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