Verstappen - The real deal?

[patmahe]

So an 17 year old kid joins Torro Rosso, and impresses with his racing ability and maturity to the extent that the bosses at Red Bull put him in the top team.

He goes on to win his first race with them and match, and at times outpace his much fancied team mate who a couple of years ago managed to make Sebastian Vettel look ordinary. Now that he has settled in regular podiums just behind (or sometimes in front of) the far superior Mercs.

I've been watching F1 a long time (>20 years) and I have never seen as exciting a prospect emerge onto the scene, even Hamilton took longer to find his feet. I think we are seeing the dawn of the next Schumacher to be honest and if he was put in a Merc I think he would beat Hamilton. Oh and he's still only 18.

So do others agree or am I seeing something that isn't there?

[cgt2]

Most veteran F1 observers and ex-drivers agree too.

He already shows better racecraft and positioning of his car than half the grid.

He is a freak genetic experiment though with two racing driver parents so not an overall surprise but his ability so early is, most take a few years to find their feet.

[Dr Jekyll]

I remember Sid Watkins verdict of Jos Verstappen was something like 'the stolid Jos Verstappen persists valiantly in his efforts'. But presumably the parents of most F1 drivers weren't F1 drivers at all.

[groomi]

I agree with what you say apart from this:

patmahe said:

...even Hamilton took longer to find his feet.

He drover around the outside of his double world champion teammate on the first corner of his first GP and went on to miss out on the championship that year by one point in a very tight three-way battle.

Admittedly he started in a top team at the top of their engineering game, but he settled in pretty damn quick - too quick for Alonso.

[Dr Z]

Yes, the real deal. But, it will be very interesting to see how he races when fighting for the WDC. IMO, RB have the most exciting driver pairing on the grid and I really hope they have a car to fight for the title next year. I have no doubt that it will be a far more interesting battle than if Merc continue to maintain the status quo.

[longshot]

He reminds me lot of Vettel when he first appeared.

Finishes above his car's ability, very hungry and with a ready smile.

[Bo_apex]

cgt2 said:

Most veteran F1 observers and ex-drivers agree too.

He already shows better racecraft and positioning of his car than half the grid.

He is a freak genetic experiment though with two racing driver parents so not an overall surprise but his ability so early is, most take a few years to find their feet.

+1

Max is proving quite exceptional.
It will be quite something once he is also racing against Mick Schumacher, who is also showing great ability at age 17, and about to enter F3.
History repeating itself although next time around Verstappen might have the upper hand.

[cgt2]

Dr Z said:

Yes, the real deal. But, it will be very interesting to see how he races when fighting for the WDC. IMO, RB have the most exciting driver pairing on the grid and I really hope they have a car to fight for the title next year. I have no doubt that it will be a far more interesting battle than if Merc continue to maintain the status quo.

I agree, fantastically exciting pairing at RB. Ricciardo mentioned at the weekend that Max has forced him to raise his game, which is great to see.

Aside from his speed, an aspect of Max that has really impressed me and not many have picked up on is his ability to manage tyres whilst still maintaining performance.

In Canada when he held off Rosberg he was on pretty worn tyres yet forced the other driver in a more powerful car into a mistake. That is skill way beyond his years and irrespective of age not many have done such things.

Max also impresses in interviews. He speaks his mind and is confident but I haven't sensed any arrogance yet, just firm determination. Let's hope it stays that way, it would be very easy for him to believe his own hype but I like his answers and his demeanour so far.

Toto Wolff was very complimentary about Max a few weeks ago, I wonder if Merc are kicking themselves as they had him ready to sign in 2014 but offered him a 3rd driver agreement when Red Bull swooped in. Imagine if he were going head to head with Hamilton in 2017 and aside from the competition what that would have done for Mercedes' global marketing. It's becoming very noticeable how many cheers Max gets and how many Dutch flags are appearing. Expect Spa to be full of Dutchies too..

Edited by cgt2 on Wednesday 3rd August 18:35

[cgt2]

Bo_apex said:

It will be quite something once he is also racing against Mick Schumacher, who is also showing great ability at age 17, and about to enter F3.
History repeating itself although next time around Verstappen might have the upper hand.

Would be great to see but I'm unsure at this stage just how good Mick is. Whereas Max has showed exceptional talent right from the beginning.

Looking at how inundated Mick was at the weekend in Germany just being a spectator, I think he will have huge expectation and pressure on him to perform which could be a problem. Someone remarked in the paddock that the last time they saw such a load of photographers running after someone in the paddock was for Mick's Dad.

I hope there is not too much pressure on him and he can be allowed to develop and learn in his own time but let's see.

[Jasandjules]

He is damn good. Let's face it, he's held off a World Champion for lap after lap, not buckling under pressure. He's repeatedly shown Rosberg how to overtake and defend. He's executed some beautiful outbraking overtakes.

So yes, I think he is the real deal.

[cgt2]

Jasandjules said:

He is damn good. Let's face it, he's held off a World Champion for lap after lap, not buckling under pressure. He's repeatedly shown Rosberg how to overtake and defend. He's executed some beautiful outbraking overtakes.

So yes, I think he is the real deal.

For me his best move was actually what he did in the Toro Rosso at Spa last year. That was an unbelievable move, though the pass on Rosberg in the damp at Silverstone was right up there too.

[Bo_apex]

cgt2 said:

Would be great to see but I'm unsure at this stage just how good Mick is. Whereas Max has showed exceptional talent right from the beginning.

Looking at how inundated Mick was at the weekend in Germany just being a spectator, I think he will have huge expectation and pressure on him to perform which could be a problem. Someone remarked in the paddock that the last time they saw such a load of photographers running after someone in the paddock was for Mick's Dad.

I hope there is not too much pressure on him and he can be allowed to develop and learn in his own time but let's see.

Agreed - massive pressure for young Mick and huge expectations from world media.
Toto Wolff has been very impressed by Mick and see's him in F1. Would be strange to see Mick piloting a Merc instead of his father.

[LDN]

Max is the real deal and if it were he and Lewis in the Mercs; it'd be very close I feel... which, for his age, is astonishing. He'd certainly be running Lewis closer than Rosberg manages and he may even edge it; if not now then in a year or two.

[Blayney]

I reserved my opinion on him last year (I didn't think he was any better than Sainz really... just a lot more vocal about it). Seen plenty of people come and go who were the next big thing in my short life so far (been watching F1 since mid 90's as a kid but only seriously from 2006ish onwards).

He has certainly impressed so far this year though. Some great overtakes, defending has been supreme, car placement excellent etc. etc. Got that race win out of the way very quickly (think of some others who took a very long time like Webber or Button).

The only thing stopping him being a multiple WDC now is getting in the right car at the right time. Look at Hamilton came on the scene in the right car and was in contention immediately, wins a championship on the second asking and then had a a big dry patch whilst Brawn, Red Bull and on occasion Ferrari outpaced (and certainly out-strategised) McLaren. Made the switch to Mercedes (which I thought was a good idea, but then I also thought Perez would challange for WDC at McLaren!) and has dominated.

I think he has the talent in abundance. Certainly has the desire. Now he needs the car/team and the edge to win a championship.

[m444ttb]

I think Hamilton would edge Verstappen over a season purely down to experience. At this point he appears to be the real deal but probably has a few steps to take to fulfil that potential. As with any driver the acid test will be when he competes for a championship.

Mick Schumacher is an interesting one. Looks like he may have F1 level talent, will have the financial backing (family fortune aside it appears he has picked up his Dad's cap sponsorship) and will be well hooked up for advice. It's such a shame his Dad probably (it seems) won't be in a position to provide him with the sort of guidance Max has had. I suppose he could always ask his uncle if he were desperate though :P

[Dr Z]

cgt2 said:

Toto Wolff was very complimentary about Max a few weeks ago, I wonder if Merc are kicking themselves as they had him ready to sign in 2014 but offered him a 3rd driver agreement when Red Bull swooped in. Imagine if he were going head to head with Hamilton in 2017 and aside from the competition what that would have done for Mercedes' global marketing.

For all their talk, I think Mercedes are too conservative to take a bold decision like that. Their current arrangement works, without having an explicit No. 2. A guy who is fast enough to keep the No. 1 on his toes, but ultimately doesn't have the outright ability to beat the No. 1 consistently in the races to really ruffle some feathers. I see their signing of Rosberg for the next two years as a tacit admission to a No. 1/No. 2 policy, not unlike the Vettel/Webber arrangement. I'd hate for Mercedes to dominate the sport for the next two years, simply for this reason.

[Mastodon2]

Max is a great driver and will no doubt go on to win multiple WDCs if he can get the right team and car at the right time.

I disagree that Ricciardo made Vettel look "ordinary", he did highlight how disinterested and unhappy Vettel was with Red Bull though. Cars aside, I think Vettel is the best driver on the grid, he's done an Alonso though, so we may never see his talent in a competitive car again.

[Ahonen]

Bo_apex said:

It will be quite something once he is also racing against Mick Schumacher, who is also showing great ability at age 17, and about to enter F3.

Schumacher wasn't terribly impressive in F4 last year. I think he finished about 11th in the championship in Germany. Verstappen is in a different league.

[LDN]

Mastodon2 said:

Max is a great driver and will no doubt go on to win multiple WDCs if he can get the right team and car at the right time.

I disagree that Ricciardo made Vettel look "ordinary", he did highlight how disinterested and unhappy Vettel was with Red Bull though. Cars aside, I think Vettel is the best driver on the grid, he's done an Alonso though, so we may never see his talent in a competitive car again.

I think Vettel is third on the grid after Hamilton and Alonso... and he is fading. Ferrari have a habit of not being able to get their st together and already, I see signs of frustration from Vettel. He will realise what Alonso was getting at when he said that being second is still losing; may as well give another team a crack.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Sorry to disagree, and I'm reeeeaaallly not posting this to be contrary but I think he's good but nothing out of the ordinary in the grand scheme of things.

He's walking proof that F1 cars are too easy to drive at the moment. There's some difficulty in the tyre management/fuel strategy but that can be taught on a sim and if that's the most difficult thing, the drivers who have honed their skill over the last 20 years can't have anything over the young guns coming in.

I'm not saying he's bad, his overtaking moves are proof of that but he's nothing extraordinary.

F1 is currently all about winning at the slowest speed possible (as it has been in past eras admittedly) and I'm sorry but the skills needed to shine don't prove much in the way of amazing racing talent. Rosberg is proof of that.