Discussion
Noticed they're becoming point scoring regulars. At times today (Austrian GP) the car looked great, really planted.
Presuming McLaren can deliver a great chassis for the revised regs, can Honda produce the goods between now and next season that the whole package is front running?
Seeing a McLaren up near the front on merit today was genuinely emotion stirring, like an old friend awakening from a coma.
Presuming McLaren can deliver a great chassis for the revised regs, can Honda produce the goods between now and next season that the whole package is front running?
Seeing a McLaren up near the front on merit today was genuinely emotion stirring, like an old friend awakening from a coma.
Honda are on the back foot with their power unit. A year less developing it, only one team to get data from, and they have the same number of development tokens to use in the season as other manufacturers. Until engine regs change they will struggle as Mercedes and Ferrari will always improve theirs at more or less the same rate.
zeDuffMan said:
Honda are on the back foot with their power unit. A year less developing it, only one team to get data from, and they have the same number of development tokens to use in the season as other manufacturers. Until engine regs change they will struggle as Mercedes and Ferrari will always improve theirs at more or less the same rate.
No more token system after this season, and the law of diminishing returns should see Honda close up on the others. The question mark is how long it takes them to get there.Hopefully McLaren can keep producing decent chassis until that happens.
zeDuffMan said:
Honda are on the back foot with their power unit. A year less developing it, only one team to get data from, and they have the same number of development tokens to use in the season as other manufacturers. Until engine regs change they will struggle as Mercedes and Ferrari will always improve theirs at more or less the same rate.
Well arguably, with tech like this the development curve shallows out as you have to work harder for smaller gains later on in the process. So I would expect the gap to keep closing as it has been as Honda over come the bigger issues, which Mercedes etc presumably already have.However, without a leap of inspiration you are right that the system probably prohibits them from catching up completely - and the relative gains may get smaller, but never say never
Whenever anyone gets optimistic like this I remember McLaren failing to win when they had the best engine on the grid. I suspect that upping the power will simply highlight other shortcomings. To the point where even when they have the best engine, best aero and best chassis - they will mess up the strategy.
Flooble said:
Whenever anyone gets optimistic like this I remember McLaren failing to win when they had the best engine on the grid. I suspect that upping the power will simply highlight other shortcomings. To the point where even when they have the best engine, best aero and best chassis - they will mess up the strategy.
Yep, like leaving a cover on an air duct at Monaco, or one of the other many cock-ups from that season (2012?).Because the F1 rule book is generated by a room full on monkeys on typewriters we can expect engine power to be a more or less non-issue next season. No, we can expect 2017 ('18 and '19) to be dominated by the team that makes the best guess on how to work the new aero regs.
Every time you change the rules you create large gaps between the teams and it takes 4 to 5 seasons for everyone to catch-up. If you change the rules every 3 to 4 seasons though you just jump from one team dominating to another team dominating.
Every time you change the rules you create large gaps between the teams and it takes 4 to 5 seasons for everyone to catch-up. If you change the rules every 3 to 4 seasons though you just jump from one team dominating to another team dominating.
GCH said:
Really nice to see JB at the front again, but heartbreaking to see him being passed like he was standing still with such a speed difference on the straights.
It was great when he pulled out into second place on the first corner, and I fully expected him to be in 4th by the end of the first lap, but he did manage to stay out there in (almost) front for a lot longer than I thought he would.groomi said:
Flooble said:
Whenever anyone gets optimistic like this I remember McLaren failing to win when they had the best engine on the grid. I suspect that upping the power will simply highlight other shortcomings. To the point where even when they have the best engine, best aero and best chassis - they will mess up the strategy.
Yep, like leaving a cover on an air duct at Monaco, or one of the other many cock-ups from that season (2012?).NRS said:
groomi said:
Flooble said:
Whenever anyone gets optimistic like this I remember McLaren failing to win when they had the best engine on the grid. I suspect that upping the power will simply highlight other shortcomings. To the point where even when they have the best engine, best aero and best chassis - they will mess up the strategy.
Yep, like leaving a cover on an air duct at Monaco, or one of the other many cock-ups from that season (2012?).2007 - Left Hamilton out on tyres that were through to the Canvas.
2008 - Errors in Monza and Germany
2010 - Messed up Malaysian qualifying by waiting until it started raining before sending the drivers out
2011 - Button made to do a 3-stop when everyone else was on 4-stop in the days of chocolate tyres
2012 - Air Duct error mentioned above
2013 - Qualifying, putting Perez on Slicks when everyone else was on Inters
That was from a quick google. Which also turned up loads of PR about Mclaren's "Strategy Room" and "Advanced Computer". There is your root cause - when you believe your own PR you cannot accept your errors and hence repeat them.
Flooble said:
Quite true, however, culture tends to remain even as people move on.
2007 - Left Hamilton out on tyres that were through to the Canvas.
2008 - Errors in Monza and Germany
2010 - Messed up Malaysian qualifying by waiting until it started raining before sending the drivers out
2011 - Button made to do a 3-stop when everyone else was on 4-stop in the days of chocolate tyres
2012 - Air Duct error mentioned above
2013 - Qualifying, putting Perez on Slicks when everyone else was on Inters
That was from a quick google. Which also turned up loads of PR about Mclaren's "Strategy Room" and "Advanced Computer". There is your root cause - when you believe your own PR you cannot accept your errors and hence repeat them.
6 errors in 7 seasons.2007 - Left Hamilton out on tyres that were through to the Canvas.
2008 - Errors in Monza and Germany
2010 - Messed up Malaysian qualifying by waiting until it started raining before sending the drivers out
2011 - Button made to do a 3-stop when everyone else was on 4-stop in the days of chocolate tyres
2012 - Air Duct error mentioned above
2013 - Qualifying, putting Perez on Slicks when everyone else was on Inters
That was from a quick google. Which also turned up loads of PR about Mclaren's "Strategy Room" and "Advanced Computer". There is your root cause - when you believe your own PR you cannot accept your errors and hence repeat them.
How does Ferrari compare? Red bull? Williams?
Williams would be in the 20's!
No McL fanboy, but you have to be fair to them - if you're calling foul n a bad tyre cal, you really have to do a +/- on all tyre calls, to see if they do a net clever call (likely IMO with JB in the car for much of above), v's when they've made a howler. It'd probably make an interesting set of stats, if you could compare all the teams on that sort of basis...
Some Gump said:
6 errors in 7 seasons.
How does Ferrari compare? Red bull? Williams?
Williams would be in the 20's!
No McL fanboy, but you have to be fair to them - if you're calling foul n a bad tyre cal, you really have to do a +/- on all tyre calls, to see if they do a net clever call (likely IMO with JB in the car for much of above), v's when they've made a howler. It'd probably make an interesting set of stats, if you could compare all the teams on that sort of basis...
It was only a quick google, as you say, it would take a full set of stats for a complete comparison. My point was to show that they make mistakes every season (perhaps so do others, but others don't spend so much time shouting about their brilliant strategy centre etc.) rather than errors being down to individuals who might move on. How does Ferrari compare? Red bull? Williams?
Williams would be in the 20's!
No McL fanboy, but you have to be fair to them - if you're calling foul n a bad tyre cal, you really have to do a +/- on all tyre calls, to see if they do a net clever call (likely IMO with JB in the car for much of above), v's when they've made a howler. It'd probably make an interesting set of stats, if you could compare all the teams on that sort of basis...
Flooble said:
Some Gump said:
6 errors in 7 seasons.
How does Ferrari compare? Red bull? Williams?
Williams would be in the 20's!
No McL fanboy, but you have to be fair to them - if you're calling foul n a bad tyre cal, you really have to do a +/- on all tyre calls, to see if they do a net clever call (likely IMO with JB in the car for much of above), v's when they've made a howler. It'd probably make an interesting set of stats, if you could compare all the teams on that sort of basis...
It was only a quick google, as you say, it would take a full set of stats for a complete comparison. My point was to show that they make mistakes every season (perhaps so do others, but others don't spend so much time shouting about their brilliant strategy centre etc.) rather than errors being down to individuals who might move on. How does Ferrari compare? Red bull? Williams?
Williams would be in the 20's!
No McL fanboy, but you have to be fair to them - if you're calling foul n a bad tyre cal, you really have to do a +/- on all tyre calls, to see if they do a net clever call (likely IMO with JB in the car for much of above), v's when they've made a howler. It'd probably make an interesting set of stats, if you could compare all the teams on that sort of basis...
My gut feeling is Williams tend to be very conservative (get some points, don't risk everything for the win). McLaren and Ferrari have made some mistakes, but sometimes it pays off. Red Bull are the standout ones to me. It may be wrong, but I get the feeling they tend to make calls that win them the race (often at the expense on one driver's race though). They're much more about winning than securing easy points if given the option.
To be honest though, I don't think McLaren have particularly "bigged up" their strategy calls. I think part of the reason they may have got a lot of stick is that they had Lewis driving for them. Just look at the focus on Mercedes mistakes this season when Hamilton loses out. Other teams have messed up (for example in the last race the Alonso old tyre incident with McLaren), but it didn't get that much attention (IMO because it wasn't Lewis). Mercedes have been somewhat lucky in that it has just been teammate battles so far. If it was another team they might have got more stick. They're certainly going to have strategy issues when the other teams catch up.
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