Jules Bianchi's family suing over his death
Discussion
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/36386227
Not sure if this will get very far, don't drivers sign waivers before they race?
It doesn't mention claiming against Suzuka though.
Not sure if this will get very far, don't drivers sign waivers before they race?
It doesn't mention claiming against Suzuka though.
I've always thought that this was inevitable after the FIA report was published.
IIRC, Bianchi was unable to slow the car as he was on both the accelerator and the brake pedal. The FIA technical rules required that if this was to ever occur the car must have a fail-safe that cuts the engine power. The Marussia had an error in their software that prevented this from happening.
IIRC, Bianchi was unable to slow the car as he was on both the accelerator and the brake pedal. The FIA technical rules required that if this was to ever occur the car must have a fail-safe that cuts the engine power. The Marussia had an error in their software that prevented this from happening.
ralphrj said:
I've always thought that this was inevitable after the FIA report was published.
IIRC, Bianchi was unable to slow the car as he was on both the accelerator and the brake pedal. The FIA technical rules required that if this was to ever occur the car must have a fail-safe that cuts the engine power. The Marussia had an error in their software that prevented this from happening.
Why was he on both?IIRC, Bianchi was unable to slow the car as he was on both the accelerator and the brake pedal. The FIA technical rules required that if this was to ever occur the car must have a fail-safe that cuts the engine power. The Marussia had an error in their software that prevented this from happening.
IMHO there is a significant responsibility to be held by the FIA because they have repeatedly not enforced the yellow flag zones for many years, at all levels of the sport.
Bianchi should never have been going fast enough to have that accident, but that isn't just his fault. As a racing driver he had to keep up with everyone else or lose time. All the drivers went through too fast as they always do under yellow flags at all levels of the sport. This is something that the FIA have allowed to become acceptable over the years.
After the Bianchi crash they seem to have addressed this issue with the use of the virtual safety car.
Bianchi should never have been going fast enough to have that accident, but that isn't just his fault. As a racing driver he had to keep up with everyone else or lose time. All the drivers went through too fast as they always do under yellow flags at all levels of the sport. This is something that the FIA have allowed to become acceptable over the years.
After the Bianchi crash they seem to have addressed this issue with the use of the virtual safety car.
ralphrj said:
I've always thought that this was inevitable after the FIA report was published.
IIRC, Bianchi was unable to slow the car as he was on both the accelerator and the brake pedal. The FIA technical rules required that if this was to ever occur the car must have a fail-safe that cuts the engine power. The Marussia had an error in their software that prevented this from happening.
He was on worn inters on wet grass, how much slowing down was he going to do anyway?IIRC, Bianchi was unable to slow the car as he was on both the accelerator and the brake pedal. The FIA technical rules required that if this was to ever occur the car must have a fail-safe that cuts the engine power. The Marussia had an error in their software that prevented this from happening.
I think the problem is mostly a cultural one.
I remember a lot of drivers saying that we have to go as quick as we can to keep up - the FIA should look after us.
I am afraid that, whilst I agree that the FIA should be considerably hotter on policing these things - those comments were the logic of a child/letigious American.
I think we can agree on one thing. Yellow flags are not there to be annoying. They are there to protect drivers from Hazards on the track and, more importantly, protect the volunteer marshalls from the racing cars. This is a good thing.
IMHO there needs to be a wholesale culture change and teams and drivers need to make the only ADULT choice, and agree to a code of behavior in yellow flag zones and makes sure that it is self policing. Before we get another marshal death or injury (I know they are few and far between, but do happen) or driver killed by the equipment.
I remember a lot of drivers saying that we have to go as quick as we can to keep up - the FIA should look after us.
I am afraid that, whilst I agree that the FIA should be considerably hotter on policing these things - those comments were the logic of a child/letigious American.
I think we can agree on one thing. Yellow flags are not there to be annoying. They are there to protect drivers from Hazards on the track and, more importantly, protect the volunteer marshalls from the racing cars. This is a good thing.
IMHO there needs to be a wholesale culture change and teams and drivers need to make the only ADULT choice, and agree to a code of behavior in yellow flag zones and makes sure that it is self policing. Before we get another marshal death or injury (I know they are few and far between, but do happen) or driver killed by the equipment.
"Bianchi should never have been going fast enough to have that accident, but that isn't just his fault. As a racing driver he had to keep up with everyone else or lose time"
I don't get this point of view - and it is something I have heard time and time again.
The point of a yellow/waved yellow is that you, as a driver slow down to safe speed.
I am aware that racers are racers (I race myself), but if I bin it in a yellow zone, I am fully aware the stewards will come down on me for going too fast for the situation.
To this day, I still think it was Bianchi's fault for having the crash, and putting the marshals lives at risk.
Its a shame it has come to this, not good for racing and not good for Bianchi (RIP).
As drivers, under most circumstances, your lives are in your own hands. A genuine tech failure, yes, but thats the risk you take getting into the car.
I don't get this point of view - and it is something I have heard time and time again.
The point of a yellow/waved yellow is that you, as a driver slow down to safe speed.
I am aware that racers are racers (I race myself), but if I bin it in a yellow zone, I am fully aware the stewards will come down on me for going too fast for the situation.
To this day, I still think it was Bianchi's fault for having the crash, and putting the marshals lives at risk.
Its a shame it has come to this, not good for racing and not good for Bianchi (RIP).
As drivers, under most circumstances, your lives are in your own hands. A genuine tech failure, yes, but thats the risk you take getting into the car.
Vaud said:
Waivers can be over ruled by a court. You can't sign away all liability, but only the court can decide.
Depends on which jurisdiction you are in/governs the contract. Under English law, you can't exclude liability for death or personal injury, so a waiver would be ineffective if there was negligence on the part of the defendant.18 other cars went through there in the same conditions without crashing including his team mate. The one that went through the yellows too quickly and crashed hit the recovery vehicle.
How are the FIA or team responsible for what speed a driver chooses to do? Sorry but Jules was a major factor in his own crash.
How are the FIA or team responsible for what speed a driver chooses to do? Sorry but Jules was a major factor in his own crash.
DanielSan said:
18 other cars went through there in the same conditions without crashing including his team mate. The one that went through the yellows too quickly and crashed hit the recovery vehicle.
How are the FIA or team responsible for what speed a driver chooses to do? Sorry but Jules was a major factor in his own crash.
The FIA were responsible for driver safety and the rescue truck?How are the FIA or team responsible for what speed a driver chooses to do? Sorry but Jules was a major factor in his own crash.
Sure, he may have contributed but that does not preclude that there may be other negligence that also contributed.
Vaud said:
The FIA were responsible for driver safety and the rescue truck?
Sure, he may have contributed but that does not preclude that there may be other negligence that also contributed.
He was the one negligent unfortunately in my eyes. Sure, he may have contributed but that does not preclude that there may be other negligence that also contributed.
If the marshal was not protected by the recovery truck, both him and the Sutil (I think?) would have been killed.
DanielSan said:
18 other cars went through there in the same conditions without crashing including his team mate. The one that went through the yellows too quickly and crashed hit the recovery vehicle.
How are the FIA or team responsible for what speed a driver chooses to do? Sorry but Jules was a major factor in his own crash.
Historical, systematic negligence perhaps? For many years no driver got as much as a rap on the knuckles for going through a yellow flag sector time barely a tenth of a second slower than normal. No threat of punishment leads to the rule being ignored - such an accident was always going to happen, it was just extremely unfortunate for Jules that he hit the tractor rather than the barrier. But he could equally have hit a group of marshalls or another driver climbing from a stricken car. How are the FIA or team responsible for what speed a driver chooses to do? Sorry but Jules was a major factor in his own crash.
groomi said:
Historical, systematic negligence perhaps? For many years no driver got as much as a rap on the knuckles for going through a yellow flag sector time barely a tenth of a second slower than normal. No threat of punishment leads to the rule being ignored - such an accident was always going to happen, it was just extremely unfortunate for Jules that he hit the tractor rather than the barrier. But he could equally have hit a group of marshalls or another driver climbing from a stricken car.
In my opinion this has been a horrific reminder that just because no one stops them, they cannot advocate responsibility. It's like the defence 'it's legal' when something is morally iffy. The participants need to stop hiding behind what they have and haven't historically gotten away with a remember what yellow flags are for. groomi said:
IMHO there is a significant responsibility to be held by the FIA because they have repeatedly not enforced the yellow flag zones for many years, at all levels of the sport.
Bianchi should never have been going fast enough to have that accident, but that isn't just his fault. As a racing driver he had to keep up with everyone else or lose time. All the drivers went through too fast as they always do under yellow flags at all levels of the sport. This is something that the FIA have allowed to become acceptable over the years.
After the Bianchi crash they seem to have addressed this issue with the use of the virtual safety car.
I think you have shown the crux of their case. VSC should have been introduced at the time the standard McLaren ECU specification was prepared.Bianchi should never have been going fast enough to have that accident, but that isn't just his fault. As a racing driver he had to keep up with everyone else or lose time. All the drivers went through too fast as they always do under yellow flags at all levels of the sport. This is something that the FIA have allowed to become acceptable over the years.
After the Bianchi crash they seem to have addressed this issue with the use of the virtual safety car.
It is also reasonably foreseeable
1- that if a GP is held during the typhoon season it may result in unintended consequences
2- that if one car has lost control in such condition, then it becomes likely that a second one might, so the deployment of lifting equipment needs to be delayed until the zone has been made safer - by whatever means.
Charlie is an old man. Sure he therefore has lots of experience, but sometimes a fresh pair of eyes can see the current a new dangers better.
I would cite the Sainz car submarining under the Techpro barrier at Sochi last year as yet another example of a foreseeable risk that could have been easily mitigated by placing the barrier in a shallow trench.
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