Anybody could win in a Merc F1 seat....
Discussion
So what are your views?....
Place any of the current F1 drivers in to one of the Merc F1 cars and they would probably win races and the drivers championship? (obviously removing either Hamilton and Rosberg from the running).
With F1 cars becoming relatively easy to drive, with no more proof than 16 year olds now being able to buy a seat and demonstrate they can get round a track in sufficiently quick enough time, ..... it begs the question that the role of the F1 driver is becoming less important in order to achieve the fastest qually lap, start from pole, and then drive to victory. Placing more emphasis on the capability of the car.
It then leaves me wondering if the show of happiness/joy/sense of achievement by the Merc drivers when they fully expectingly win a race happens to be a little falsified or even just becoming nothing more than a "look at me" exercise?
I'm probably looking at this season a bit too cynically but interested on other's viewpoints.
Place any of the current F1 drivers in to one of the Merc F1 cars and they would probably win races and the drivers championship? (obviously removing either Hamilton and Rosberg from the running).
With F1 cars becoming relatively easy to drive, with no more proof than 16 year olds now being able to buy a seat and demonstrate they can get round a track in sufficiently quick enough time, ..... it begs the question that the role of the F1 driver is becoming less important in order to achieve the fastest qually lap, start from pole, and then drive to victory. Placing more emphasis on the capability of the car.
It then leaves me wondering if the show of happiness/joy/sense of achievement by the Merc drivers when they fully expectingly win a race happens to be a little falsified or even just becoming nothing more than a "look at me" exercise?
I'm probably looking at this season a bit too cynically but interested on other's viewpoints.
Nope. Have a look at the video of Hammond struggling to drive an F1 car. He was locking wheels, spinning, etc and nowhere near the pace. He said if he up'd the pace a little bit and the accidents get worse, the only way to drive it sucessfully was drive it a *lot* faster.
Most people wouldn't even be able to get an F1 car into its operating window. Even Chris Harris spun an F1 car we he tried it.
Most people wouldn't even be able to get an F1 car into its operating window. Even Chris Harris spun an F1 car we he tried it.
I would suggest there's a little bit more to driving an F1 car than we think however I'm sure having the best machine on the grid certainly gives an advantage.
It does make me chuckle to see a 16 year old driving an F1 car, I think WTF does he know I could do better however being the wrong side of 50 I would suggest he may be a teeny weeny bit fitter and quicker than I will ever be
It does make me chuckle to see a 16 year old driving an F1 car, I think WTF does he know I could do better however being the wrong side of 50 I would suggest he may be a teeny weeny bit fitter and quicker than I will ever be
bit of a none point really..like Hamilton has said in his latest interview...its not tennis or golf, f1 is a team sport, but its those last 1/10ths of a second the team want from their drivers...teams spend a lot of money finding that time in a car so you still need the best drivers to find that bit extra.
f1 has ALWAYS been about the car....lets take a look at the last 20 years or so..
Hamiltons Mercedes
Vettels Red Bull
Buttons Brawn
Schumachers Ferrari
Schumachers Bennetton
Mansells Williams
Prost and Sennas McLaren
all utterly dominant cars that stole the march on other teams through aerodynamics, flexible wings, double diffusers, traction control, active suspension, carbon monocoques....
...its not a recent thing that the best drivers win in the best cars...
...a better question would be could someone like maldanado or Mehri beat Hamilton, Vettel or Schumacher in the same car....I highly doubt it, the best drivers are still the best, and will inevitably get themselves placed in the best cars
at the end of the day you can only beat your teammate....put someone like vettel or Alonso in rosbergs car and see what happens...Hamilton has already proved he could match Alonso....would be interesting to see him in the same car as vettel at some point
f1 has ALWAYS been about the car....lets take a look at the last 20 years or so..
Hamiltons Mercedes
Vettels Red Bull
Buttons Brawn
Schumachers Ferrari
Schumachers Bennetton
Mansells Williams
Prost and Sennas McLaren
all utterly dominant cars that stole the march on other teams through aerodynamics, flexible wings, double diffusers, traction control, active suspension, carbon monocoques....
...its not a recent thing that the best drivers win in the best cars...
...a better question would be could someone like maldanado or Mehri beat Hamilton, Vettel or Schumacher in the same car....I highly doubt it, the best drivers are still the best, and will inevitably get themselves placed in the best cars
at the end of the day you can only beat your teammate....put someone like vettel or Alonso in rosbergs car and see what happens...Hamilton has already proved he could match Alonso....would be interesting to see him in the same car as vettel at some point
Edited by 37chevy on Friday 18th September 13:00
If by 16yo you mean Max Verstappen...he was 3rd in his first year of Euro F3 (winning 6 rounds in a row at Spa & Norisring). Hardly a typical 16 ruffian.
F1 cars are totally on the edge. You NEED to drive as fast as you (a normal driver) just to keep any semblance of tyre temperature. If that goes, you're toast. And the brakes only work above 800C, which requires about 80kg of pedal force (something a normal driver has never gotten within 1/10th of). This is like Motocross where going at 40% speed doesn't work as your bikes treads fill with mud - you need to go flat out or you're on your ass. It's not easy.
And good luck being able to adjust entry/mid/exit differential settings along with compensating for fuel use with brake bias adjustments.
And G-forces? Try having the balls to hold on to a corner at 4G.
F1 cars are totally on the edge. You NEED to drive as fast as you (a normal driver) just to keep any semblance of tyre temperature. If that goes, you're toast. And the brakes only work above 800C, which requires about 80kg of pedal force (something a normal driver has never gotten within 1/10th of). This is like Motocross where going at 40% speed doesn't work as your bikes treads fill with mud - you need to go flat out or you're on your ass. It's not easy.
And good luck being able to adjust entry/mid/exit differential settings along with compensating for fuel use with brake bias adjustments.
And G-forces? Try having the balls to hold on to a corner at 4G.
I don't think a racing drivers display of joy at winning is in anyway false or contrived. They might enjoy a good challenge, but they LOVE winning. When Schumacher had a superior car, a hatful of championships, and a teammate who was obliged to let him win, he never looked less than overjoyed at winning.
I'd expect anyone on the current grid to be a race winner in the Mercedes. The questions come on consistency and part of that is not f
king up and the other part is extracting the maximum. So some drivers would win more often and/or by a greater margin. I suspect the same would be true in most eras of the sport. Whether the cars are relatively harder to drive now vs whenever is a different question as is whether a member of the public could jump in and win. the second of those questions wouldnt take long to answer.
king up and the other part is extracting the maximum. So some drivers would win more often and/or by a greater margin. I suspect the same would be true in most eras of the sport. Whether the cars are relatively harder to drive now vs whenever is a different question as is whether a member of the public could jump in and win. the second of those questions wouldnt take long to answer.Megaflow said:
Nope. Have a look at the video of Hammond struggling to drive an F1 car. He was locking wheels, spinning, etc and nowhere near the pace. He said if he up'd the pace a little bit and the accidents get worse, the only way to drive it sucessfully was drive it a *lot* faster.
Most people wouldn't even be able to get an F1 car into its operating window. Even Chris Harris spun an F1 car we he tried it.
Read the OP before commenting. Most people wouldn't even be able to get an F1 car into its operating window. Even Chris Harris spun an F1 car we he tried it.
It's always been the way when a car is dominant. There are a lot of drivers who could have scored a lot of points in a 2014 Mercedes, 2012 Red Bull, 2004 Ferrari, 1992/3 Williams...
The question is could they have done better than the second driver in each of those cars. Rosberg, Webber, Barrichello, Hill, Patrese were all chosen as they could win races, even if, ultimately, it turned out that they weren't Hamilton, Vettel, Schumacher, Prost or Mansell.
If Merc thought they could have done as well by putting Maldonado, Mehri or Chilton in the car and had a 20M Euro benefit on the balance sheet, I'm sure that they would have done.
But with the benefit of more data than we have they chose Rosberg. And looking at the results of the last two years, it turned out to be a good decision.
The question is could they have done better than the second driver in each of those cars. Rosberg, Webber, Barrichello, Hill, Patrese were all chosen as they could win races, even if, ultimately, it turned out that they weren't Hamilton, Vettel, Schumacher, Prost or Mansell.
If Merc thought they could have done as well by putting Maldonado, Mehri or Chilton in the car and had a 20M Euro benefit on the balance sheet, I'm sure that they would have done.
But with the benefit of more data than we have they chose Rosberg. And looking at the results of the last two years, it turned out to be a good decision.
37chevy said:
f1 has ALWAYS been about the car....lets take a look at the last 20 years or so..
Hamiltons Mercedes
Vettels Red Bull
Buttons Brawn
Schumachers Ferrari
Schumachers Bennetton
Mansells Williams
Prost and Sennas McLaren
This point also proves that the driver does have influence aswell, in that their team-mates wouldn't be as dominant in that car if the above drivers weren't there.Hamiltons Mercedes
Vettels Red Bull
Buttons Brawn
Schumachers Ferrari
Schumachers Bennetton
Mansells Williams
Prost and Sennas McLaren
For Vettel, there was Webber, who was regularly beaten in the car that Vettel conquered all in.
For Button, Barrichello likewise.
For Schumacher (94-95) JJ Lehto / Johnny Herbert
For Mansell, Patrese
Sometimes a car just really suits a driver. Sometimes, a driver is just better than everyone else.
Granted, both Lewis and Nico dominate in the Mercedes, but not all drivers perhaps would and they definitely don't all have the talent to get consecutive poles, wins, etc.
Jimmm said:
Megaflow said:
Nope. Have a look at the video of Hammond struggling to drive an F1 car. He was locking wheels, spinning, etc and nowhere near the pace. He said if he up'd the pace a little bit and the accidents get worse, the only way to drive it sucessfully was drive it a *lot* faster.
Most people wouldn't even be able to get an F1 car into its operating window. Even Chris Harris spun an F1 car we he tried it.
Read the OP before commenting. Most people wouldn't even be able to get an F1 car into its operating window. Even Chris Harris spun an F1 car we he tried it.
Not sure what your issue with that is?
Megaflow said:
I did. The OP asked the question could anybody win in the Mercedes. I said no because F1 cars are very hard to drive in their operating window, and then cited two examples of people used to driving fast cars, the second even has a successful racing career, and both struggled in F1 cars.
Not sure what your issue with that is?
OP asked if you put any of the current F1 drivers into the Mercedes could they win races. You mentioned Hammond and Harris finding it difficult. They are irrelevant in this scenario. OP is talking about the top 20 fastest* open wheel racers in the world. All of which have F1 experience and should be more than capable of winning in a Merc.Not sure what your issue with that is?
- Supposedly
Edited by Jimmm on Friday 18th September 16:54
Muzzer79 said:
This point also proves that the driver does have influence aswell, in that their team-mates wouldn't be as dominant in that car if the above drivers weren't there.
For Vettel, there was Webber, who was regularly beaten in the car that Vettel conquered all in.
For Button, Barrichello likewise.
For Schumacher (94-95) JJ Lehto / Johnny Herbert
For Mansell, Patrese
Sometimes a car just really suits a driver. Sometimes, a driver is just better than everyone else.
Granted, both Lewis and Nico dominate in the Mercedes, but not all drivers perhaps would and they definitely don't all have the talent to get consecutive poles, wins, etc.
Oh yeh, absolutely.....i was pointing out its not a new thing that there is a dominant car....I hear people saying Lewis only wins because he's in the best car.....well yeh it's nothing new! For Vettel, there was Webber, who was regularly beaten in the car that Vettel conquered all in.
For Button, Barrichello likewise.
For Schumacher (94-95) JJ Lehto / Johnny Herbert
For Mansell, Patrese
Sometimes a car just really suits a driver. Sometimes, a driver is just better than everyone else.
Granted, both Lewis and Nico dominate in the Mercedes, but not all drivers perhaps would and they definitely don't all have the talent to get consecutive poles, wins, etc.
Ultimately it has ALWAYS been down to how well you can do against your teammate....and as you say that's where the differences are
Jimmm said:
Megaflow said:
I did. The OP asked the question could anybody win in the Mercedes. I said no because F1 cars are very hard to drive in their operating window, and then cited two examples of people used to driving fast cars, the second even has a successful racing career, and both struggled in F1 cars.
Not sure what your issue with that is?
OP asked if you put any of the current F1 drivers into the Mercedes could they win races. You mentioned Hammond and Harris finding it difficult. They are irrelevant in this scenario. OP is talking about the top 20 fastest* open wheel racers in the world. All of which have F1 experience and should be more than capable of winning in a Merc.Not sure what your issue with that is?
- Supposedly
Edited by Jimmm on Friday 18th September 16:54
I believe any of the current F1 drivers could win it in the Mercedes, depending who their teammate is, for example it would seem Rosberg cannot against Hamilton.
On how many occasions has the championship NOT been won by the best car?
I can only think of a handful:
1956, 77, 82, 93, 94, 99 and 2009 are all that come to mind.
(On a completely different tack, I've just realised that over the past 20 years, the championship has been won by 8 different teams, but only 3 different engine suppliers.)
I can only think of a handful:
1956, 77, 82, 93, 94, 99 and 2009 are all that come to mind.
(On a completely different tack, I've just realised that over the past 20 years, the championship has been won by 8 different teams, but only 3 different engine suppliers.)
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