Middle age F1 vs Bikes

[gshughes]

With the recent notable exception of M Schumacher, F1 drivers seem to be ready for retirement in their mid 30s, whereas at the recent IOM TT, John McGuiness, Bruce Anstey and Michael Rutter, who are all in their mid 40s, were competing right at the sharp end, with JMcG winning the blue riband Senior TT. The sport is arguably more physical than F1 right now, so what is the difference?

[Janluke]

I wonder if its about knowing the track? I know the surface can change from year to year but the course has been more or less the same for years and the longest race course in the world(I think)

An extra 10 years experience must count for a lot

[Hungrymc]

Something to do with short circuits vs longer road events?

Motogp boys generally are falling back once they're into their 30s

[kiseca]

I think F1 is much more physical. The lateral G forces are difficult to deal with and need the cockpit heat, and duration spent in the cockpit, are both physically daunting. I would also guess that those who survive into their 40s in TT are those who aren't quite pushing the physical limits as hard and are using their experience more, as the OP suggested, so experience would be a greater factor in success than outright speed and millimetre precision.

Also I'd suggest that F1 is a far more popular sport for up and coming talent, so the quality of competition will be higher and the opportunities for experience to make up the deficit of ageing will be fewer

[Scuffers]

kiseca said:

I think F1 is much more physical.

Disagree...

Riding a bike competatively is massive more physical.

[sinbad666]

Scuffers said:

Disagree...

Riding a bike competatively is massive more physical.

Not saying one way or the other but cornering G forces and under braking are surely higher in F1. How long do the TT races last?

[Scuffers]

sinbad666 said:

Scuffers said:

Disagree...

Riding a bike competatively is massive more physical.

Not saying one way or the other but cornering G forces and under braking are surely higher in F1. How long do the TT races last?

not the same thing, people go on about G forces, but in reality, assuming you're strapped in etc, they are not really that big a deal, it used to be before power steering etc etc, but these days, it's just something you deal with, not fight.

Bikes are a totally different kettle of fish, you have nothing holding you onto the bike but you, no power steering, etc etc etc. and your man-handling it round.

[Richjam]

At the IOM there not pushing a 100% all of the time they have to leave a little margin because if they crash its game over. Therefore its more about track knowledge and preserving momentum. F1 on the other hand they are pushing a 100% when there allowed with no margin as F1 is relatively safe in comparison therefore its more down to fitness and reaction time which is more of a young mans game.

[_Leg_]

3 reasons I can think of that combine in many ways.

1. Money. They're loaded by their 30s in F1 so if 2 below applies, why bother?
2. Opportunity. Once they're in their 30s if they haven't won a championship then they're unlikely to so can't get a seat in a car that will. Even if they have won a championship they might not get a seat in a car that will. Why bother?
3. Pressure from new drivers. Getting a seat in F1 is very competitive.

I know nowt about the TT so couldn't say if any of the above apply to that but I'm guessing not?

[celicawrc]

Well... when a MotoGP rider finishes a race they look very sweaty and knackered. When an F1 driver steps out of the car they look like they have just finished playing chess.

I would say bikes are alot more physically demanding especially on the brakes. Old(proper)F1, is a different story.

[upsidedownmark]

Make a relevant comparison - F1 vs MotoGP and they're not so different. Circuit racing is about absolute speed, not loosing a tenth anywhere. Can't find the quote, but I think Mark Webber put it well about loosing just that bit of an edge with age.

As to the physical side, both are, differently. I can only imagine what hanging onto a motoGP bike is like, but then I can also only imagine what an F1 car is like - yeah, they're slower than they used to be, but most aero cars are somewhat beyond most of our comprehension, even the 'lower' formulae.

TT has got to be more about guile and cunning. They're incredibly committed (IMHO), but not *as* committed as a circuit racer, they can't be - most circuit racers crash fairly frequently. That's not really the way to a long life at the TT. I doubt the TT bikes are as physical as either F1 or MotoGP. Being really blunt, if it was as finely balanced physically, mentally and in power-weight ratio as the top formulae in circuit racing (2 wheels and 4), certain riders couldn't get away with being as chunky as they are and still be competitve

[kiseca]

Scuffers said:

sinbad666 said:

Scuffers said:

Disagree...

Riding a bike competatively is massive more physical.

Not saying one way or the other but cornering G forces and under braking are surely higher in F1. How long do the TT races last?

not the same thing, people go on about G forces, but in reality, assuming you're strapped in etc, they are not really that big a deal, it used to be before power steering etc etc, but these days, it's just something you deal with, not fight.

Bikes are a totally different kettle of fish, you have nothing holding you onto the bike but you, no power steering, etc etc etc. and your man-handling it round.

How do you just deal with a force acting against you? You need the muscles and the stamina to deal with it.

The guy sitting on the bike never feels lateral G. He turn a corner, he just gets pushed down a bit into his seat. An F1 guy brakes at over 4G, turns at two and a half. He has to hold his arms and head up while doing this to turn the wheel. Power assisted or not, he's trying to turn a wheel while a force two and a half times the weight of his arms is trying to drag them to one side of the cockpit. The force on his head is like lying sideways with your head elevated and trying to hold up a 45lb sack of.. something. According to Sid Watkins' book - I can't remember if it was Beyond The Limit or the first one - drivers sweat at just about the maximum rate for the length of a race 1.5 to 2 hours. Their heart rate will average 150bpm. Blood pressure will increase by 50%. They'll burn as many calories as a marathon runner.

It's hard work.

I don't know how all that compares to a TT rider but I struggle to see how they can be working any harder.

[anonymous-user]

kiseca said:

Scuffers said:

sinbad666 said:

Scuffers said:

Disagree...

Riding a bike competatively is massive more physical.

Not saying one way or the other but cornering G forces and under braking are surely higher in F1. How long do the TT races last?

not the same thing, people go on about G forces, but in reality, assuming you're strapped in etc, they are not really that big a deal, it used to be before power steering etc etc, but these days, it's just something you deal with, not fight.

Bikes are a totally different kettle of fish, you have nothing holding you onto the bike but you, no power steering, etc etc etc. and your man-handling it round.

How do you just deal with a force acting against you? You need the muscles and the stamina to deal with it.

The guy sitting on the bike never feels lateral G. He turn a corner, he just gets pushed down a bit into his seat. An F1 guy brakes at over 4G, turns at two and a half. He has to hold his arms and head up while doing this to turn the wheel. Power assisted or not, he's trying to turn a wheel while a force two and a half times the weight of his arms is trying to drag them to one side of the cockpit. The force on his head is like lying sideways with your head elevated and trying to hold up a 45lb sack of.. something. According to Sid Watkins' book - I can't remember if it was Beyond The Limit or the first one - drivers sweat at just about the maximum rate for the length of a race 1.5 to 2 hours. Their heart rate will average 150bpm. Blood pressure will increase by 50%. They'll burn as many calories as a marathon runner.

It's hard work.

I don't know how all that compares to a TT rider but I struggle to see how they can be working any harder.

Their was a good prog on recently covering 10/11 Motogp seasons. Part of it was saying how the bikes are getting more and more difficult to ride as they develop and how the riders can never rest but are constantly climbing side to side, front to rear.

Contrast that with Coulthard's recent article where he says the latest F1 cars are physically too easy to drive, which is why youngsters can manage them. And have basically been emasculated over recent years. Not just him saying it either.

I think the only reason F1 drivers retire these days is boredom...

[thegreenhell]

kiseca said:

How do you just deal with a force acting against you? You need the muscles and the stamina to deal with it.

The guy sitting on the bike never feels lateral G. He turn a corner, he just gets pushed down a bit into his seat.

I take it you've never tried to ride a motorbike at high speed, or probably at all? Have you ever watched a rider working his machine? How do you imagine you get a bike to turn at high speed? You might be surprised at how much effort it takes, not like just turning a power-assisted steering wheel. Every turn the rider is hanging his weight off the side of the bike. Every bump he is trying to hang on, and braking is like doing a handstand as most of your body weight is reacted through your arms.

All the while apparently not pushing the limit. Looks easy, eh?

[Scuffers]

kiseca said:

How do you just deal with a force acting against you? You need the muscles and the stamina to deal with it.

The guy sitting on the bike never feels lateral G. He turn a corner, he just gets pushed down a bit into his seat.

you don't need muscles to deal with G forces, you just sit there, it's not like your trying to stop yourself sliding out of the seat or the like.

I can only assume you have never ridden a bike, let alone a fast one on slicks?

[kiseca]

No, you don't just sit there while the equivalent of five large fire extinguishers trying to pull your head out of the cockit.

https://www.formula1.com/content/fom-website/en/ch...

http://www.carvaluation.com/blog/f1-technical

As for how to turn a bike, you can climb off it and try drag it down into the corner if you like, or you can push the opposite bar forward a little and let the bike tip itself in. For those asking if I've ridden a bike etc, in race conditions and speed, I've got as many miles on a slickshod bike as I have in a modern F1 car

You both are right of course, the bike riders don't just sit in the saddle, they climb all over the bike, but the GP riders do this a lot more than the TT ones and in both cases they're never dealing with more than their own body weight. They have to be fit, certainly. But F1 drivers work harder. I haven't found any evidence that TT riders burn as many joules. Show me that and I'll be happy.

Edited by kiseca on Saturday 20th June 08:34

[Scuffers]

kiseca said:

No, you don't just sit there while the equivalent of five large fire extinguishers trying to pull your head out of the cockit.

look, in the old days, it was more stressful, cars were faster, cornering loads were not just higher, but lasted longer.

pretty sure the current cars can't make 5G laterally, not even sure they can make that under braking these days.

Obviously, I have not driven an F1 car, have driven stuff that can just about make 3G laterally, and to be blunt, I am far from powerfully built or fit, and it was not issue what so ever.

The most physical thing I have ever driven is a gearbox cart, you literally get the crap beaten out of you, that requires strength and stamina (as well as body armour).

[joefraser]

upsidedownmark said:

Make a relevant comparison - F1 vs MotoGP and they're not so different. Circuit racing is about absolute speed, not loosing a tenth anywhere. Can't find the quote, but I think Mark Webber put it well about loosing just that bit of an edge with age.

As to the physical side, both are, differently. I can only imagine what hanging onto a motoGP bike is like, but then I can also only imagine what an F1 car is like - yeah, they're slower than they used to be, but most aero cars are somewhat beyond most of our comprehension, even the 'lower' formulae.

TT has got to be more about guile and cunning. They're incredibly committed (IMHO), but not *as* committed as a circuit racer, they can't be - most circuit racers crash fairly frequently. That's not really the way to a long life at the TT. I doubt the TT bikes are as physical as either F1 or MotoGP. Being really blunt, if it was as finely balanced physically, mentally and in power-weight ratio as the top formulae in circuit racing (2 wheels and 4), certain riders couldn't get away with being as chunky as they are and still be competitve

Shirley you can't be serious...

A TT rider like McGuiness or Dunlop aren't as committed as circuit riders? Really really?

[ZX10R NIN]

F1 Drivers experience high G in braking & cornering compared to a Superbike, as for riders fitness you'll be surprised how fit they are, when you're wrestling 230bhp & 210kg (fully fueled) that just wants to go straight for an hour & forty five minutes.

Yes they may look big but you need to be to keep the thing down someone like Lee Johnston who's an F1 drivers build actually burns more energy than Anstey etc during a race.

The reason why F1 drivers/Moto GP riders are spent in their 30's is more to do with the teams wanting the next hot prospect especially in Moto GP where Honda & Yamaha want to make sure they have the next superstar signed up. Rossi is an exception he is truely the G.O.A.T he adapted to four eras of Moto GP bikes 500cc 990cc 800cc & 1000cc.

For example in the next season Pedrosa who is a great rider will be moved out of the factory team to make way for the next hot prospect.

Road Racing is a much harder sport to crack with all the different types of races the TT is a bit different as it's the only one where you start on your own giving you an easier time than the others Ulster GP NW200 Southern 100 etc but trust me you will ride all of them at 100% because if you don't the rest will.

So when a rider shows he can win & keeps on winning then they'll keep on getting rides, circuit knowledge will always help in both disciplines.

Watch these short vids to show you how physically demanding it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzWf-6UzQUA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jsjMXHLM18

Most circuit racers will not have the commitment to race at Road Race circuits as they know they can't take the liberties they do on circuits as there are consequences, just look at Kimi when he went rallying.

Edited by ZX10R NIN on Saturday 20th June 09:59

[LoonR1]

I'm confused why the OP is comparing F1 to the TT in the first place, they aren't the equivalents of each other.