McLaren's race strategy in Canada - erm - I'm confused...
Discussion
I'm just wondering - with an engine which is miles-off-the-pace, why were they telling their drivers to back-off to conserve fuel - in a car unlikely to get to the end of the race (or be MANY laps down if it does??) anyway?
It's pretty obvious they were competing in a test session for the car - surely the best thing to do would be drive the thing and see how far it goes - if it runs out of fuel before it breaks, you know reliability has improved and you're running it in race conditions, not somewhere below that.
Only thing I could think of is they have a limited engine supply and didn't want to break one if they didn't HAVE to - but that seemed inevitable anyway and I don't get why you test your car in a non-ideal setup - I don't see what you learn from that (other than "hey, the car works when not being used as hard as it might be")?
Also - black paint didn't help then?
It's pretty obvious they were competing in a test session for the car - surely the best thing to do would be drive the thing and see how far it goes - if it runs out of fuel before it breaks, you know reliability has improved and you're running it in race conditions, not somewhere below that.
Only thing I could think of is they have a limited engine supply and didn't want to break one if they didn't HAVE to - but that seemed inevitable anyway and I don't get why you test your car in a non-ideal setup - I don't see what you learn from that (other than "hey, the car works when not being used as hard as it might be")?
Also - black paint didn't help then?
They should have stuck the whole tank full of fuel and ran rather than putting in as little as possible and trying to get to the end. They aren't fighting for points realistically so running the perfect race has no benefit, maybe they'd be 10 seconds slower over the race but they would at least keep the drivers a bit happier and gain more useful data
I suspect the team were still working on the principle of finishing and the pitwall focusing on maximising race strategy.
This may be at odds with the drivers just working on the basis of racing hard and worry about fuel levels later if we need to.
The moment the team start to assume they wont finish and not bother with maximising strategy they may as well throw the towel in.
However, I agree with you from a personal perspective. When there is a good chance you aren't going to finish then you may as well push hard up until that point.
This may be at odds with the drivers just working on the basis of racing hard and worry about fuel levels later if we need to.
The moment the team start to assume they wont finish and not bother with maximising strategy they may as well throw the towel in.
However, I agree with you from a personal perspective. When there is a good chance you aren't going to finish then you may as well push hard up until that point.
Everything mclaren-honda does defies logic, or perhaps a realistic understanding of where they are. Their attitude and approach would be akin to pastor maldonardo claiming he's in contention for the drivers title.
It's very ominous as you can't move to improve unless you take sober stock of where you are. It seems shallow of me to sit here and attribute such fundamental daftness about one of the greatest F1 teams of all time, but I can't see it in any other light. Perhaps it's just a determined public image/PR thing but it feels more and as you say, it's still inhibiting progress.
It's very ominous as you can't move to improve unless you take sober stock of where you are. It seems shallow of me to sit here and attribute such fundamental daftness about one of the greatest F1 teams of all time, but I can't see it in any other light. Perhaps it's just a determined public image/PR thing but it feels more and as you say, it's still inhibiting progress.
I just find it mad that Honda, makers of some of the worlds best, most reliable engines...has made an engine that is a) down on power, b) crap on fuel and c) un-reliable. Its a dog.
Its not like Honda haven't been here before either. They've been here in both the turbo and the high rev V10 era. The only new thing this time round is the energy recovery stuff and its not like they don't have any experience of that either.
BTW I know how long engine dyno'ing and calibration can take, its my day job. But still, for a company with the might and pedigree of Honda, its a bit embarrassing.
Its not like Honda haven't been here before either. They've been here in both the turbo and the high rev V10 era. The only new thing this time round is the energy recovery stuff and its not like they don't have any experience of that either.
BTW I know how long engine dyno'ing and calibration can take, its my day job. But still, for a company with the might and pedigree of Honda, its a bit embarrassing.
Otispunkmeyer said:
I just find it mad that Honda, makers of some of the worlds best, most reliable engines...has made an engine that is a) down on power, b) crap on fuel and c) un-reliable. Its a dog.
Its not like Honda haven't been here before either. They've been here in both the turbo and the high rev V10 era. The only new thing this time round is the energy recovery stuff and its not like they don't have any experience of that either.
BTW I know how long engine dyno'ing and calibration can take, its my day job. But still, for a company with the might and pedigree of Honda, its a bit embarrassing.
F1 engines are fairly specialised and have little in common with road car engines though; in fact the two of the most successful recent F1 engines were the mechachrome (who make engines that renault buy and slap renault stickers on) and illmore (who mercedes bought the whole company and called it a division of mercedes)Its not like Honda haven't been here before either. They've been here in both the turbo and the high rev V10 era. The only new thing this time round is the energy recovery stuff and its not like they don't have any experience of that either.
BTW I know how long engine dyno'ing and calibration can take, its my day job. But still, for a company with the might and pedigree of Honda, its a bit embarrassing.
I don't know if honda engines are designed or built in-house, even if so, it'll be a team that has little ongoing to do with road cars, I doubt even the fez F1 program has much tech transfer to road cars beyond concepts and pointers.
Otispunkmeyer said:
I just find it mad that Honda, makers of some of the worlds best, most reliable engines...has made an engine that is a) down on power, b) crap on fuel and c) un-reliable. Its a dog.
Its not like Honda haven't been here before either. They've been here in both the turbo and the high rev V10 era. The only new thing this time round is the energy recovery stuff and its not like they don't have any experience of that either.
BTW I know how long engine dyno'ing and calibration can take, its my day job. But still, for a company with the might and pedigree of Honda, its a bit embarrassing.
Honda should have returned next year as they originally intended.Its not like Honda haven't been here before either. They've been here in both the turbo and the high rev V10 era. The only new thing this time round is the energy recovery stuff and its not like they don't have any experience of that either.
BTW I know how long engine dyno'ing and calibration can take, its my day job. But still, for a company with the might and pedigree of Honda, its a bit embarrassing.
KarlMac said:
Usually pretty lame, but that's a good one.In the past Honda have used F1 as a tested for its engineers and these guys have done well, but today F1 is all about technology not engineering and I do not believe Honda have grasped how fast the target has moved in four years and how race by race things are moving on. Less management by committee in Japan and more lets live and die by taking a risk. Data from racing is vital, not from trying to score a point when they are so far behind that being lapped after 22 is shocking.
Otispunkmeyer said:
I just find it mad that Honda, makers of some of the worlds best, most reliable engines...has made an engine that is a) down on power, b) crap on fuel and c) un-reliable. Its a dog.
I'm not surprised the Honda engine is poor, if you follow road car engines you'd have seen the writing on the wall.Small capacity NA Honda engines were unquestionably cutting edge and market leaders in the 90s, but since then they've been stagnant. No small capacity turbo engines and crap diesels (2.2) have put them well behind the competition, including BMW, VAG and others. Only very recently have they introduced a better 1.6 diesel but they still don't have a single turbo petrol available until the new Civic Type R is launched.
Honda are quite simply an also ran as a road car engine builder, so I'm not surprised their F1 engine follows this trend.
belleair302 said:
In the past Honda have used F1 as a tested for its engineers and these guys have done well, but today F1 is all about technology not engineering and I do not believe Honda have grasped how fast the target has moved in four years and how race by race things are moving on. Less management by committee in Japan and more lets live and die by taking a risk. Data from racing is vital, not from trying to score a point when they are so far behind that being lapped after 22 is shocking.
I think you're right on the data front but if it were me, every now and then, I'd be turning the thing up to 11, brimming it and telling the drivers to go flat out. At least that way, they'd get to see the potential whereas at the moment, I don't think even they know this.Olivera said:
I'm not surprised the Honda engine is poor, if you follow road car engines you'd have seen the writing on the wall.
Small capacity NA Honda engines were unquestionably cutting edge and market leaders in the 90s, but since then they've been stagnant. No small capacity turbo engines and crap diesels (2.2) have put them well behind the competition, including BMW, VAG and others. Only very recently have they introduced a better 1.6 diesel but they still don't have a single turbo petrol available until the new Civic Type R is launched.
Honda are quite simply an also ran as a road car engine builder, so I'm not surprised their F1 engine follows this trend.
Total horlicks!Small capacity NA Honda engines were unquestionably cutting edge and market leaders in the 90s, but since then they've been stagnant. No small capacity turbo engines and crap diesels (2.2) have put them well behind the competition, including BMW, VAG and others. Only very recently have they introduced a better 1.6 diesel but they still don't have a single turbo petrol available until the new Civic Type R is launched.
Honda are quite simply an also ran as a road car engine builder, so I'm not surprised their F1 engine follows this trend.
Honda have and still make arguably some of the best engines in the world.
The diesel you slate was designed by isusu, not Honda.
With the onslaught of every stricter emissions, high reving NA engines are out hence going turbo, otherwise they would have stuck with NA.
Compare the k20 Honda with the equivalent vag 2.0 or Toyota is laughable
Scuffers said:
Honda have and still make arguably some of the best engines in the world.
The diesel you slate was designed by isusu, not Honda.
With the onslaught of every stricter emissions, high reving NA engines are out hence going turbo, otherwise they would have stuck with NA.
Compare the k20 Honda with the equivalent vag 2.0 or Toyota is laughable
You've completely missed my point. They still make some of the best small capacity NA petrol engines in the business such as the K20. I'm not arguing against that.The diesel you slate was designed by isusu, not Honda.
With the onslaught of every stricter emissions, high reving NA engines are out hence going turbo, otherwise they would have stuck with NA.
Compare the k20 Honda with the equivalent vag 2.0 or Toyota is laughable
What I am stating is that over the last 10 years compared to it's peers they have fallen behind in making competitive, low emissions turbo engines, both diesel and petrol.
Edit to add: the crappy 2.2 diesel was a Honda unit
Edited by Olivera on Monday 8th June 20:08
Olivera said:
You've completely missed my point. They still make some of the best small capacity NA petrol engines in the business such as the K20. I'm not arguing against that.
What I am stating is that over the last 10 years compared to it's peers they have fallen behind in making competitive, low emissions turbo engines, both diesel and petrol.
Low emmision turbo engines....What I am stating is that over the last 10 years compared to it's peers they have fallen behind in making competitive, low emissions turbo engines, both diesel and petrol.
The peak of engine design....
Troubleatmill said:
If only Honda had some experience in making high performance race engines.
e.g. Indycar, Le Mans, etc
Do you actually follow motorsport?e.g. Indycar, Le Mans, etc
They've been building Indycar engines for years and at one point sole supplier.
Olivera said:
You've completely missed my point. They still make some of the best small capacity NA petrol engines in the business such as the K20. I'm not arguing against that.
What I am stating is that over the last 10 years compared to it's peers they have fallen behind in making competitive, low emissions turbo engines, both diesel and petrol.
Edit to add: the crappy 2.2 diesel was a Honda unit
Over the past decade or so Honda have been developing and refining next-gen PUs ie. hydrogen technology. Honda has an island that's run on hydrogen; Honda FCX Clarity is a usuable family car run on hydrogen and available via lease basis to Californians for because it has sufficient infrastructure and Toyota recently recently released its version called the Mirai.What I am stating is that over the last 10 years compared to it's peers they have fallen behind in making competitive, low emissions turbo engines, both diesel and petrol.
Edit to add: the crappy 2.2 diesel was a Honda unit
Edited by Olivera on Monday 8th June 20:08
they're too conservative.
Look at how long ron took to agree jensons contract renewal; they want to consider every detail to the nth degree and beyond. I imagine any flashes of brilliance are soon ironed out of any engineers, and hence the same methodology carries through to what we see on track. They undoubtedly view every single lap as a data collection exercise, instead of allowing them to ever 'turn it up to 11'
I cant see them moving forward to the front row for years.
Look at how long ron took to agree jensons contract renewal; they want to consider every detail to the nth degree and beyond. I imagine any flashes of brilliance are soon ironed out of any engineers, and hence the same methodology carries through to what we see on track. They undoubtedly view every single lap as a data collection exercise, instead of allowing them to ever 'turn it up to 11'
I cant see them moving forward to the front row for years.
entropy said:
Troubleatmill said:
If only Honda had some experience in making high performance race engines.
e.g. Indycar, Le Mans, etc
Do you actually follow motorsport?e.g. Indycar, Le Mans, etc
They've been building Indycar engines for years and at one point sole supplier.
They built Suzuka as test track for their high performance stuff around the same time.
Otispunkmeyer said:
I just find it mad that Honda, makers of some of the worlds best, most reliable engines...has made an engine that is a) down on power, b) crap on fuel and c) un-reliable. Its a dog.
Its not like Honda haven't been here before either. They've been here in both the turbo and the high rev V10 era.
But it was a long time ago. They only won that one race lucky race with the 2.4L V8, and no races at all in 6 seasons with the 3.0L V10's. Its not like Honda haven't been here before either. They've been here in both the turbo and the high rev V10 era.
Otherwise, you have to go back to the 3.5L era and the last race of the 1992 season with the V12 to find a winning Honda engine...that's almost a quarter of a century ago!!
I'm not surprised in the least that Honda are where they are right now, and I'll be surprised if they improve by any great margin by the end of the season.
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