The big unfreeze

[Jimmm]

Couple of reports from the last few days seem to suggest that an 'unfreeze' is now on the cards.

http://www.espn.co.uk/mercedes/motorsport/story/18...

http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/506512/Merc...

As far as I understand it there is no 'unfreeze' but instead of engines being homolagated in February, as they were this year, that date would be delayed until July for the 2015 season?

[Crafty_]

Horner is whinging again : http://www.crash.net/f1/news/210579/1/horner-f1-ru...

The compromise allows the manufacturer more time to change stuff.
Changes to the engine is based on a token system, for example "Con rods, including small & big end bearings" counts as 2 tokens.
For next year's engine they are allowed to change 32 tokens, which is 48 % of the total.
In reality what this means is only the basic architecture is locked (bore spacing, deck height etc).
You can see what the tokens are and when they get locked on the very last page of this document

http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/...

The unfreeze compromise (according to autosport) would effectively let the manufacturers have two bites of the cherry by letting them introduce a revised engine in July 2015. The changes still have to fit in the token scheme though.
So lets say I "spend" 20 tokens over the winter, as per the current rules I cannot change the engine again until the 2016 season.
Under the compromise I could "spend" the other 12 tokens in the first half of 2015, releasing another engine in July.

Merc want this to be strictly a one off. Somehow I doubt Renault & Ferrari see it like that, even if they agree for now and then just do the same whinging next year.

[red_duke]

Surely they have to allow engine changes or we'll be treated to another Mercedes whitewash next year ... yawn. I can't see the non-Merc teams catching up with aero and chassis changes alone.

[Crafty_]

This report from Jon Noble says there is still a stalemate: https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/formula-1-f1-e...

In addition to the extra development period Renault & Ferrari want to spend more tokens up to July 2015, Mercedes have suggested this is unacceptable on cost grounds, both for manufacturer and small teams so they suggested a smaller number of extra tokens could be spent.

There are hints I've seen from a couple of sources that say Renault want to push for completely unlimited development for 2016. This is just crazy, imagine where the costs would go. Its irresponsible and I think their attitude is poor, given the cost issues in F1 right now.

[anonymous-user]

But wouldnt Merc just end up improving their engine too thus making the whole process pointless?

[rubystone]

tux said:

But wouldnt Merc just end up improving their engine too thus making the whole process pointless?

They go it right out of the box, the others didn't. Therefore their peers would most likely make the greatest gain. The very fsct that Merc have vetoed it would suggest they haven't found any material gains themselves.

[Crafty_]

Sky said yesterday Merc have told them they know where to get another 60hp, thats a pretty big gain, if Renault get their unfreeze and still end up behind I shall be amused..

[RYH64E]

Crafty_ said:

.

There are hints I've seen from a couple of sources that say Renault want to push for completely unlimited development for 2016. This is just crazy, imagine where the costs would go. Its irresponsible and I think their attitude is poor, given the cost issues in F1 right now.

You reap what you sow. The options are another season of Mercedes domination or the engine suppliers spending a st load of money on development.

Another thing to consider, why would Renault stay in F1 if all they've got to look forward to is ongoing humiliation by Mercedes and criticism by their customer teams? If the freeze isn't lifted I'd expect them to be off, and if it is lifted but they still lag Mercedes I'd still expect them to leave. If F1 doesn't help them sell road cars they've got no reason to stay, let alone invest a few £100m more on a lost cause.

If cost was an concern, why on earth did anyone consider imposing the biggest set of rule changes in recent years based around hugely expensive 'power units' that add nothing to the show? Madness.

[Crafty_]

It was accepted that they could need to control costs with the new engines coming in, hence the freeze system. IIRC it was Renaults idea.

Maybe Renault could play by the rules that they helped set. They haven't had the best engine in F1 for some years, why should they throw their toys out the window now?

[RYH64E]

Crafty_ said:

It was accepted that they could need to control costs with the new engines coming in, hence the freeze system. IIRC it was Renaults idea.

Maybe Renault could play by the rules that they helped set. They haven't had the best engine in F1 for some years, why should they throw their toys out the window now?

It's not sport to Renault it's business, and if F1 doesn't help them sell road cars then they owe it to their shareholders to stop wasting money and get out.

For the past few seasons Renault engines have powered the championship winning cars, a few F1 anoraks may think that their engines may not have been the best in the field but I doubt that troubled the marketing department unduly, their customers won in Renault powered cars. This season, and maybe for the next few seasons, Renault not only don't have the best engine in F1 they have an engine that's widely and publicly criticised for being uncompetitive and making it very difficult for their customers to win. Why would they stay under such circumstances, and who would want them to?

[Northern Munkee]

Perhaps what BCE really wants is just one engine supplier?

ETA: and Ferrari, of course.

[Crafty_]

RYH64E said:

It's not sport to Renault it's business, and if F1 doesn't help them sell road cars then they owe it to their shareholders to stop wasting money and get out.

For the past few seasons Renault engines have powered the championship winning cars, a few F1 anoraks may think that their engines may not have been the best in the field but I doubt that troubled the marketing department unduly, their customers won in Renault powered cars. This season, and maybe for the next few seasons, Renault not only don't have the best engine in F1 they have an engine that's widely and publicly criticised for being uncompetitive and making it very difficult for their customers to win. Why would they stay under such circumstances, and who would want them to?

So you mean we should re-name F1 "Renault F1" and make sure that at all times they win just to placate them ?

Or they could just their heads down and make sure they do a better job over the winter.

[Northern Munkee]

Exhibit A:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29980194 EJ interview reminiscing about the cosworth & Ferrari days.

[BritishRacinGrin]

The unfreeze, if it happens, will give Honda an utterly charmed initiation into the V6T hybrid era.

[RYH64E]

Crafty_ said:

So you mean we should re-name F1 "Renault F1" and make sure that at all times they win just to placate them ?

Or they could just their heads down and make sure they do a better job over the winter.

Placating Renault is what got us into this mess in the first place.

A first step might be to recognise the folly of listening to Renault's threats to quit if these engines weren't introduced and not make the same mistake again, a second step would be to recognise the folly of allowing car manufacturers to use F1 as an adjunct of their marketing departments and instead prioritise the interests of F1, and a third step would be to junk these expensive but soulless power units and revert to something that produces more excitement at lower cost. That should do it.

Here's someone else's take on it:

Ecclestone said:

The dispute highlights a very real concern in F1 at present: with backmarkers going out of business amid unprecedentedly high engine bills, maintaining the current 'freeze' also risks leaving Mercedes' dominance essentially unchallenged for years to come.

It plays into the hands of Bernie Ecclestone, who argues that the old V8 engines are not only cheaper, but also much more popular among the sport's fans.

"They (the race promoters) bought a package and we're not delivering," the F1 chief executive, who says the V6s are not loud enough, told British broadcaster Sky a week ago in Austin.

"We need to change the regulations. We're going to try to get rid of these (V6) engines. They don't do anything for anybody. They're not formula one," Ecclestone insisted.

Edited by RYH64E on Sunday 9th November 19:10

[Scuffers]

BritishRacinGrin said:

The unfreeze, if it happens, will give Honda an utterly charmed initiation into the V6T hybrid era.

Even without it, they're currently best placed as they have yet to homologate anything!