Drivers Yellow Flag behaviour?
Discussion
Lots of debate in the Japanese GP thread about the major accident- I don't want to dwell on that as the outcome isn't yet known.
IMVHO a route cause of this incident "might" be the response (or lack of) of the drivers to yellow flags, the most they seem to do is lift slightly but still pass accidents/marshalls at 80+% full speed.
The Le Mans slow zones where, I thought, a quick and effective solution. Obviously not the same type of racing as F1 but having the drivers either "Drive to a Delta" (like while they are catching the safety car) or even dropping to pit lane speed for the Yellow sector with a no-passing in or out of the zone rule makes alot of sense to me.
With cars trolling past well under 50% racing speed the marshalls could work in greater numbers and faster to move cars without fear of being flattened or another car joining the scene of the accident...
Anything to avoid the safety car being deployed should be considered in my opinion and frankly over the last few years people have been passing yellows at so quickly that laps where the pit are slower! That is IMO wrong.
My fear after yesterday is the FIA will throw the safety car out more and with the stupid restart rules we're due to get that will be a royal PITA I think.
IMVHO a route cause of this incident "might" be the response (or lack of) of the drivers to yellow flags, the most they seem to do is lift slightly but still pass accidents/marshalls at 80+% full speed.
The Le Mans slow zones where, I thought, a quick and effective solution. Obviously not the same type of racing as F1 but having the drivers either "Drive to a Delta" (like while they are catching the safety car) or even dropping to pit lane speed for the Yellow sector with a no-passing in or out of the zone rule makes alot of sense to me.
With cars trolling past well under 50% racing speed the marshalls could work in greater numbers and faster to move cars without fear of being flattened or another car joining the scene of the accident...
Anything to avoid the safety car being deployed should be considered in my opinion and frankly over the last few years people have been passing yellows at so quickly that laps where the pit are slower! That is IMO wrong.
My fear after yesterday is the FIA will throw the safety car out more and with the stupid restart rules we're due to get that will be a royal PITA I think.
I'm sure there'd be cries of 'unfair' when an incident takes ahlf a lap to resolve half the field has to go through at 50% and the other half of the cars go through at racing speed.
Even Le Mans was not perfect at this but the race is long enough and the lap long enough for it to even out in the end, to an extent.
Even Le Mans was not perfect at this but the race is long enough and the lap long enough for it to even out in the end, to an extent.
zac510 said:
I'm sure there'd be cries of 'unfair' when an incident takes ahlf a lap to resolve half the field has to go through at 50% and the other half of the cars go through at racing speed.
Even Le Mans was not perfect at this but the race is long enough and the lap long enough for it to even out in the end, to an extent.
Easy to make it fair by operating it for "whole laps" eg- can only cancel it after the first car which passed it is the next to reach it again so everyone gets equal exposure- still "fairer" than Safety cars sucking all the gaps out of the field and handing some people free pit stops and wasting 5laps minimum of out, collect, back markers pass and finally in lap.Even Le Mans was not perfect at this but the race is long enough and the lap long enough for it to even out in the end, to an extent.
I think there is an indicator in the car (yellow light) which tells the driver / car when they are in a yellow flag section.
Link that yellow light to the pit lane speed limiter.
Big flashing yellow light on the back of the cars to indicate the system is in operation.
Lots of additional complications, to ensure cars remain controllable as speed is brought down, but in principle this seems practical and fair (if system ensures every car goes through the section the same number of times).
David
Link that yellow light to the pit lane speed limiter.
Big flashing yellow light on the back of the cars to indicate the system is in operation.
Lots of additional complications, to ensure cars remain controllable as speed is brought down, but in principle this seems practical and fair (if system ensures every car goes through the section the same number of times).
David
I've thought that drivers respect of yellow flags has been terrible for some time now - especially double waved yellows.
Double waved yellows in F1 and most other series mean "Slow down and prepare to stop", partly so the driver doesn't pile in to the back of someone else's accident but also to protect the poor marshals trying to save one driver from danger being taken out by a 200MPH lump of carbon fibre . They DON'T mean lift a fraction so you go through the flagged sector 0.001s under your faster time!
Double waved yellows in F1 and most other series mean "Slow down and prepare to stop", partly so the driver doesn't pile in to the back of someone else's accident but also to protect the poor marshals trying to save one driver from danger being taken out by a 200MPH lump of carbon fibre . They DON'T mean lift a fraction so you go through the flagged sector 0.001s under your faster time!
Pit lane speed limiter.... 60mph in the middle of the race where people are approaching at 200mph is a bonkers suggestion and likely to result in total carnage. Remember when there is an incident it could be anywhere on the track so no white line to signal the limiter so who will determine where, exactly does the 'incident' area start and finish?
What it needs is discipline from the drivers to collectively ease where there is an incident. It doesn't need much, just back off sufficient to stay on the track and be ready to stop if needed. Anybody not following the spirit of the rule and looking to gain advantage in the opinion of the stewards would be penalised by a drive-through.
So overall, leave it as it, but just enforce the existing rules properly!
Paul
What it needs is discipline from the drivers to collectively ease where there is an incident. It doesn't need much, just back off sufficient to stay on the track and be ready to stop if needed. Anybody not following the spirit of the rule and looking to gain advantage in the opinion of the stewards would be penalised by a drive-through.
So overall, leave it as it, but just enforce the existing rules properly!
Paul
ukaskew said:
Worth noting that in the conditions experienced yesterday, slow F1 cars are arguably as 'unsafe' (certainly at least as unpredictable) as one at full pace.
Brake temperature and more importantly lack of downforce quickly become issues in the wet when pootling around.
A 691kg F1 car travelling at 80kph hits something with significantly less force than a 691kg F1 car travelling at 200kph though (441KJ vs. 2,761KJ if I have my math's correct) ...Brake temperature and more importantly lack of downforce quickly become issues in the wet when pootling around.
Edited by //j17 on Monday 6th October 12:50
//j17 said:
ukaskew said:
Worth noting that in the conditions experienced yesterday, slow F1 cars are arguably as 'unsafe' (certainly at least as unpredictable) as one at full pace.
Brake temperature and more importantly lack of downforce quickly become issues in the wet when pootling around.
A 691kg F1 car travelling at 80kph hits something with significantly less force than a 691kg F1 car travelling at 200kph though (441,817N vs. 2,761,360N if I have my math's correct) ...Brake temperature and more importantly lack of downforce quickly become issues in the wet when pootling around.
//j17 said:
A 691kg F1 car travelling at 80kph hits something with significantly less force than a 691kg F1 car travelling at 200kph though (441KJ vs. 2,761KJ if I have my math's correct) ...
The likelihood of your factoid being proven is inversely proportional to speed, especially on a wet track.Edited by //j17 on Monday 6th October 12:50
In the conditions on Sunday driving round slowly was downright dangerous, Hamilton complained the safety car wasn't fast enough and Vettel reported aqua planing at 80kph.
A lot of it depends on the conditions. You could argue that driving round a dry track at 90% means it will be highly unlikely that the driver will lose control, whether they would stop in time if there was a car in the middle of the track after a corner is possibly an issue.
Driving on a wet track where the conditions change every lap it must be difficult to predict how much grip / standing water there is so 90% may no be safe, but then Ericsson proved that safety car speeds aren't safer either. Wasn't there a race in Brazil where 4 or 5 cars crashed after turn 2 in the rain, even having passed the accidents on previous laps?
Driving on a wet track where the conditions change every lap it must be difficult to predict how much grip / standing water there is so 90% may no be safe, but then Ericsson proved that safety car speeds aren't safer either. Wasn't there a race in Brazil where 4 or 5 cars crashed after turn 2 in the rain, even having passed the accidents on previous laps?
//j17 said:
A 691kg F1 car travelling at 80kph hits something with significantly less force than a 691kg F1 car travelling at 200kph though (441KJ vs. 2,761KJ if I have my math's correct) ...
Is it not better that they don't hit anything at all...? The actual speed is irrelevant as there are too many variables to say what is a 'safe' speed. The speed that the cars pass an incident should be within their safe window. Not quali-pace, not race-pace, but slow enough to ensure that they don't pose a risk, this will be different for Hamilton on new super-soft slicks on a bone-dry track than it would for Chilton on tired inters on a track that is getting wetter by the lap for example. Limiting to a fixed speed under yellows is totally unworkable.
Circuits and cars have had millions spent on them regarding safety cells, impact absorbing barriers. Nothing has been spent on safety regarding heavy industrial JCBs on track. Even after Brundle's accident at the same place in 1994. It doesn't take a genius to say if one car has crashed there in slippy conditions so can another. The problem then is the recovery vehicles used, or manner of recover of a car. Perhaps the answer is fixed Monaco style cranes, but they cannot cover everywhere. Do they leave the cars out instead, after all 2 F1 cars colliding can do what they are designed to do and absorb impacts, but teams would not like the extra expense of a small off turning into a chassis destroying crash by another car.
So why doesn't the FIA/FOM provide F1 spec recovery vehicles and equipment, that is shipped to every circuit. Equipment better designed for F1 racing in terms of use and safety. I've long thought that marshals should have a high powered accurate airgun to blow carbon fibre wreckage off the track without having to venture out onto a live track to pick it up, so come on Bernie put something back into F1.
The only alternative I see is to introduce strict pitlane restriction speeds between the yellow flag incidents.
So why doesn't the FIA/FOM provide F1 spec recovery vehicles and equipment, that is shipped to every circuit. Equipment better designed for F1 racing in terms of use and safety. I've long thought that marshals should have a high powered accurate airgun to blow carbon fibre wreckage off the track without having to venture out onto a live track to pick it up, so come on Bernie put something back into F1.
The only alternative I see is to introduce strict pitlane restriction speeds between the yellow flag incidents.
AndrewEH1 said:
F1 cars can't corner at slower speeds due to their reliance on aero downforce.
Nonsense (if taken on face value) :-)Sure- there is a cut-off where they are too fast for mechanical grip but not really quick enough for full downforce but we all know they can and do corner at all speeds- they go far slower than the Safety car around Lowes hairpin and along the pit yet behind the pace car in the dry they corner successfully at "mundane" speeds.
The point is passing Yellow flag area at 90% racing speed is Not- "Slow down and prepare to stop"
There has to be some fair way to get them to slow significantly without putting the blasted Safety car out all the time.
As posted in the Suzaka thread
The rules are
Yellow flag: This is a signal of danger and should be shown to drivers in two ways with the following meanings: – Single waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be prepared to change direction. There is a hazard beside or partly on the track. – Double waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be prepared to change direction or stop. There is a hazard wholly or partly blocking the track.
Well no racer every really slows down - it's just not done. It's difficult to police
No overtaking is a big no no but in certain circumstances is allowed.
As a driver when I see a flag I'm immediately more cautious and aware of a possible incident and I tend to raise my hand to acknowledge that I've seen the flag (if possible). If it's needed I may lift - but a lift might in itself cause an accident.
Saying Jules ignore the yellows and didn't slow down and is the root cause of the accident is nonsense. He may have slowed down, he may not had and what exactly is the definition of slowing down - 1kph slower is slowing down.
The reason for Le Mans yellow slow zones is because there's so many cars going at different speeds and of course they race through the night. I think it's actually a good idea. Whether it would work for F1 is a different question
The rules are
Yellow flag: This is a signal of danger and should be shown to drivers in two ways with the following meanings: – Single waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be prepared to change direction. There is a hazard beside or partly on the track. – Double waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be prepared to change direction or stop. There is a hazard wholly or partly blocking the track.
Well no racer every really slows down - it's just not done. It's difficult to police
No overtaking is a big no no but in certain circumstances is allowed.
As a driver when I see a flag I'm immediately more cautious and aware of a possible incident and I tend to raise my hand to acknowledge that I've seen the flag (if possible). If it's needed I may lift - but a lift might in itself cause an accident.
Saying Jules ignore the yellows and didn't slow down and is the root cause of the accident is nonsense. He may have slowed down, he may not had and what exactly is the definition of slowing down - 1kph slower is slowing down.
The reason for Le Mans yellow slow zones is because there's so many cars going at different speeds and of course they race through the night. I think it's actually a good idea. Whether it would work for F1 is a different question
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