Making F1 relevant to road car development
Discussion
The complexity of these new cars is such that the engineering team are really winning the races, and should be on the podium,
Road car technology is heading towards driver-less cars, will F1 follow, or lead the way in that?
The choice by the FIA of making F1 relevant to road car development, could be a dead end street
Road car technology is heading towards driver-less cars, will F1 follow, or lead the way in that?
The choice by the FIA of making F1 relevant to road car development, could be a dead end street
RealSquirrels said:
driverless cars on a one-way race circuit is easy... and not really relevant to driving on the public roads. so thankfully, i think F1 will remain driverlessless
I agree.The F1 driver is a key part of the sport. What makes it exciting is watching a driver and thinking "how the blazes did he do that, without losing control of his bowels". Take the driver out and all you have are a bunch of cars going around a circuit and the fastest car will be at the front. The driverless aspect of cars is all around other objects doing unexpected things and navigation. There's not much of that in circuit racing.
Now a driverless cannonball...
But are these engines / transmission relevant to anything we are likely to drive in the forseeable future?
No, they are mega expensive; still only manage 7mpg; temperamental and extremely complex.
A Toyota Prius is probably about the "state-of-the-art" as far as a hybrid engine for the general motoring public is concerned and even they have had a massive recall issue with their software.
The new hybrid supercars are genuinely incredille, but with £1million sticker price, so they should be.
No, they are mega expensive; still only manage 7mpg; temperamental and extremely complex.
A Toyota Prius is probably about the "state-of-the-art" as far as a hybrid engine for the general motoring public is concerned and even they have had a massive recall issue with their software.
The new hybrid supercars are genuinely incredille, but with £1million sticker price, so they should be.
rdjohn said:
But are these engines / transmission relevant to anything we are likely to drive in the forseeable future?
No, they are mega expensive; still only manage 7mpg; temperamental and extremely complex.
A Toyota Prius is probably about the "state-of-the-art" as far as a hybrid engine for the general motoring public is concerned and even they have had a massive recall issue with their software.
The new hybrid supercars are genuinely incredille, but with £1million sticker price, so they should be.
Define forseeable future. I certainly forsee that we might fit energy capture to the turbos fitted to a growing number of cars now. If the F1 cars can make it reliable in those conditions a cut down less stressed version fitted to a road car should be totally possible.No, they are mega expensive; still only manage 7mpg; temperamental and extremely complex.
A Toyota Prius is probably about the "state-of-the-art" as far as a hybrid engine for the general motoring public is concerned and even they have had a massive recall issue with their software.
The new hybrid supercars are genuinely incredille, but with £1million sticker price, so they should be.
There's certainly more to come out of these engines into road cars than petrol V8s with non direct injection.
rdjohn said:
But are these engines / transmission relevant to anything we are likely to drive in the forseeable future?
No, they are mega expensive; still only manage 7mpg; temperamental and extremely complex.
A Toyota Prius is probably about the "state-of-the-art" as far as a hybrid engine for the general motoring public is concerned and even they have had a massive recall issue with their software.
The new hybrid supercars are genuinely incredille, but with £1million sticker price, so they should be.
Yes the ford ecoboost (sans the ERS) for instance, Ford commercial engines are being changed to V6 turbocharged engines from V8s over the next few years and no doubt once the ERS systems are perfected that will also become commonplace.No, they are mega expensive; still only manage 7mpg; temperamental and extremely complex.
A Toyota Prius is probably about the "state-of-the-art" as far as a hybrid engine for the general motoring public is concerned and even they have had a massive recall issue with their software.
The new hybrid supercars are genuinely incredille, but with £1million sticker price, so they should be.
The MPG argument is erelivant, they are race engine and no race engine does many MPG but the road versions will, ANY developing engine is tested to death to find it's limits, in a test cell usually where the MPG is jsut as low as a race engine but in F1 it's done in public and we get to watch them race as they do it
I know a few people who work on test bed engeneering of new power units and even TD units can be down into single or low teen figures under test conditions but as i said that goes on behind closed doors and also costs millions.
Edited by S0 What on Thursday 20th March 17:28
Yes, I agree that timeframe is important. I am 62 so I am thinking in perhaps the next 20 years. I don't have kids and I do have a comfortable disposable income. So I do blow large sums on fuel to do trackdays, tow my trackcar across France to do trackdays and travel across Europe to follow the sun.
What I am talking about is normal cars that a mid-income couple with two kids are likely to buy. So I do not think that Ford downsizing from V8s to V6s is hugely relevant to what goes on in the mass market of Europe
These are a couple of Whatcar reviews on the Prius and Golf Bluemotion. They both have similar performance and fuel economy, but the Golf is about 10% cheaper and being simpler is likely to be more reliable:-
http://www.whatcar.com/car-reviews/toyota/prius-ha...
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/volkswagen/golf-ha...
VW had a very serious think about entering F1 and decided against it and preferred to use two high-end brands Porsche and Audi to show what can be achieved in endurance racing. Ironically that is also the choice of Toyota as it offers a far more open specification for developing the "what can be achieved" with new hybrids systems over a genuinely long race distance.
I remain unconvinced that Renault is likely to introduce any viable hybrid engine into a Clio, or Megane any time soon or even the next 20 years. Renaults were the principle architects of this formula and threatened to leave if their demands were not met. I am sure that Mercedes and Ferrari would have been happy to continue with the V8's. It is where the big margins are for motor manufacturers.
At the end of the day “profit-per-unit-sold” is what counts; everything else is just window dressing.
What I am talking about is normal cars that a mid-income couple with two kids are likely to buy. So I do not think that Ford downsizing from V8s to V6s is hugely relevant to what goes on in the mass market of Europe
These are a couple of Whatcar reviews on the Prius and Golf Bluemotion. They both have similar performance and fuel economy, but the Golf is about 10% cheaper and being simpler is likely to be more reliable:-
http://www.whatcar.com/car-reviews/toyota/prius-ha...
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/volkswagen/golf-ha...
VW had a very serious think about entering F1 and decided against it and preferred to use two high-end brands Porsche and Audi to show what can be achieved in endurance racing. Ironically that is also the choice of Toyota as it offers a far more open specification for developing the "what can be achieved" with new hybrids systems over a genuinely long race distance.
I remain unconvinced that Renault is likely to introduce any viable hybrid engine into a Clio, or Megane any time soon or even the next 20 years. Renaults were the principle architects of this formula and threatened to leave if their demands were not met. I am sure that Mercedes and Ferrari would have been happy to continue with the V8's. It is where the big margins are for motor manufacturers.
At the end of the day “profit-per-unit-sold” is what counts; everything else is just window dressing.
entropy said:
Apart from Ferrari the bread and butter are from smaller engines to V8s.
As has always been the case, F1 engines have never borne any similarity to the road going equivalent, which hasn't stopped F1 being very popular and the manufacturers selling loads of cars. Why change now?RYH64E said:
As has always been the case, F1 engines have never borne any similarity to the road going equivalent
The DFV was the lead for multi valve tech in road car engineRenault brought the Turbo to the masses
Not normally similar to contemporary road car engines, usually a decade or so ahead.
One thing they should have dropped a long time ago is pneumatic valve return systems. No relevance to anything other than race engines.
VVT systems should be allowed.
I think to see how these engines will be relevant to road cars will take a few years to manifest. We have to look at where it can be going in the future.
The biggest step has already been made, in that they have changed the rules and shed the old V8. From now on the FIA can start pushing the engines further in this direction by just tuning the regulations a bit each year, for example freeing up the technology in some areas, or just reducing the fuel allowance by 5% to make them find economy in more creative ways.
While now they might be slightly below or similar to the level of road cars, after 5 or 10 years of rule tweaking they could potentially have progressed to above the level of road cars' engines.
The biggest step has already been made, in that they have changed the rules and shed the old V8. From now on the FIA can start pushing the engines further in this direction by just tuning the regulations a bit each year, for example freeing up the technology in some areas, or just reducing the fuel allowance by 5% to make them find economy in more creative ways.
While now they might be slightly below or similar to the level of road cars, after 5 or 10 years of rule tweaking they could potentially have progressed to above the level of road cars' engines.
rdjohn said:
Yes, I agree that timeframe is important. I am 62 so I am thinking in perhaps the next 20 years. I don't have kids and I do have a comfortable disposable income. So I do blow large sums on fuel to do trackdays, tow my trackcar across France to do trackdays and travel across Europe to follow the sun.
What I am talking about is normal cars that a mid-income couple with two kids are likely to buy. So I do not think that Ford downsizing from V8s to V6s is hugely relevant to what goes on in the mass market of Europe
These are a couple of Whatcar reviews on the Prius and Golf Bluemotion. They both have similar performance and fuel economy, but the Golf is about 10% cheaper and being simpler is likely to be more reliable:-
http://www.whatcar.com/car-reviews/toyota/prius-ha...
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/volkswagen/golf-ha...
The golf simpler and more reliableWhat I am talking about is normal cars that a mid-income couple with two kids are likely to buy. So I do not think that Ford downsizing from V8s to V6s is hugely relevant to what goes on in the mass market of Europe
These are a couple of Whatcar reviews on the Prius and Golf Bluemotion. They both have similar performance and fuel economy, but the Golf is about 10% cheaper and being simpler is likely to be more reliable:-
http://www.whatcar.com/car-reviews/toyota/prius-ha...
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/volkswagen/golf-ha...
Exige77 said:
Semi Autos have found themselves in main stream cars now.
sorry, but there have been around a lot longer than F1 has.couple this with the fact that no OEM road car uses any system remotely similar to F1 cars gearboxes.
DSG and the like did not come from F1, they actually were first used in tractors (amongst other things) as a way of changing gear without disconnecting drive.
Walford said:
my point was, with the cars 5 times more complex, is the driver becoming less important every year and the engineers/ software guys more
Not really. The whole sport has been heavily skewed in favour of the person with the best machinery since it's conception. My gut tells me (and I appreciate it's not a calibrated device), that it's 80% equipment and 20% driver that wins the race.And I don't feel I would change that ratio compared to when say Mr Chapman turned up on the scene, with his Lotus team.
The cars are more complex, but the driver isn't any more or less important. You just need more technical guys to make the thing go.
I think 7mpg on a track is incredibly good. Whilst it weighs a lot more my road car gives well under 10mpg on a track and I'm not good enough to drive it at anything like the equivalent level of its capability that F1 drivers use, and it is much slower and less powerful anyway. I'm pretty sure we get plenty of benefits which we don't realise from F1 tech, including engines.
The major car manufacturers don't need any help with car design from F1 engineers, the budgets available for new car development massively exceed the amounts spent in F1. Even back in the 90's Ford spent over USD 6bn developing the Mondeo, that's huge money even compared to the highest spending F1 teams.
As far as energy recovery systems are concerned, F1 cars spend the majority of their time either accerating hard or braking hard, road cars just aren't driven that way so there's much less benefit from the various energy recovery systems used in F1. If there were benefits from such systems they'd be commonplace already, and they're not.
And the main point, F1 is meant to be about racing, excitement and entertainment, not the development/marketing arm of Mercedes et al.
As far as energy recovery systems are concerned, F1 cars spend the majority of their time either accerating hard or braking hard, road cars just aren't driven that way so there's much less benefit from the various energy recovery systems used in F1. If there were benefits from such systems they'd be commonplace already, and they're not.
And the main point, F1 is meant to be about racing, excitement and entertainment, not the development/marketing arm of Mercedes et al.
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