Official 2024 Austrian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

[Byker28i]

honda_exige said:

Max made a small error which unfortunately had a substantial negative outcome for both.

Knew HE would be along to defend Max with a very sunny view of his poor driving over several laps.
HE must write Horny's scripts

[ajprice]

It was a shame really that Piastri was back a few places on the grid from that penalty. If Max had both McLaren's to deal with at the end of the race it might have been too much to hold off, and I think Piastri is a bit more fighty than Norris.

[Dave200]

vaud said:

Shocking from Perez and to some extent Hamilton.

Agreed with it all except this. Both had damage to their floors from the early exchanges, which obviously hampered their pace across the whole race.

[Dave200]

isaldiri said:

Finlandese said:

As most here, my take during the race was that Max was moving under braking and clearly in the wrong. Based on his after race comments I started to doubt moving under braking in the cases prior to the one that lead to the accident.

It seems that Max was gaming the "Max rule" and twitched just before braking. Technically not moving under the braking but achieving the same end result.

Well, the incident that led to the contact, surely that was a clear cut moving under braking? After listening to Peter Windsor, I am not sure any more.

https://youtu.be/1aUP8Mz8Vkk?si=LPEBbDXK0tStsT4X

A shame in any case.

Edited by Finlandese on Monday 1st July 08:54

Edited by Finlandese on Monday 1st July 08:54

Tbh I think the only really naughty one from Verstappen was the first one where Norris had to bail to the outside. On the one that caused contact, he should have left more space and rightly was penalised after but it wasn’t anywhere near as clear a case of moving after braking like earlier. Ultimately though if a driver that’s going to try to defend by daring contact meets a driver who’s determined to pass with a ‘yield or else’ move, they are going to end up crashing - the only question is how serious….

The Skypad analysis literally shows him moving left under braking, and leaving Norris without a car's width on the outside. I'd say that was pretty "clear a case".

Edited by Dave200 on Monday 1st July 10:07

[Byker28i]

I'm sure I saw Perez take a divebomb on Hulk and make contact on the last lap, but nothing mentioned, not even in Hulks interview
https://www.formula1.com/en/video/hulkenberg-finis...

Perez was another with a big hole in his sidepod
https://www.planetf1.com/news/sergio-perez-big-hol...

big hole




https://racingnews365.com/perez-shows-off-major-da...

[Finlandese]

Dave200 said:

The Skypad analysis literally shows him moving right under braking, and leaving Norris without a car's width on the outside. I'd say that was pretty "clear a case".

That was my take during the race too. PW claims that the footage shows Max steering perfectly straight while the track kinks. Lando held his position on track. Could he have moved more to the left? Perhaps, but should he have to? Obviously the stewards thought not. In any case Windsors analysis is interesting.

P.s. A bit of a feeling that both Max and Lando are trying to establish dominance on each other for these situations,but having trouble judging the actions of each other. In Barcelona it was Lando, in Austria it was Max. A marked difference to Leclerc/Max fights.

[vaud]

Dave200 said:

vaud said:

Shocking from Perez and to some extent Hamilton.

Agreed with it all except this. Both had damage to their floors from the early exchanges, which obviously hampered their pace across the whole race.

I missed the level of damage. However, Perez wouldn't necessarily be in these situations if he didn't screw up in quali.

[Dave200]

Finlandese said:

Dave200 said:

The Skypad analysis literally shows him moving right under braking, and leaving Norris without a car's width on the outside. I'd say that was pretty "clear a case".

That was my take during the race too. PW claims that the footage shows Max steering perfectly straight while the track kinks. Lando held his position on track. Could he have moved more to the left? Perhaps, but should he have to? Obviously the stewards thought not. In any case Windsors analysis is interesting.

P.s. A bit of a feeling that both Max and Lando are trying to establish dominance on each other for these situations,but having trouble judging the actions of each other. In Barcelona it was Lando, in Austria it was Max. A marked difference to Leclerc/Max fights.

Using the angle of the corner to squeeze a car on the outside under braking, leaving them without a car's width, is still an offence worthy of a penalty.

You don't need to yank the wheel over to move under braking, and you always need to leave a car's width no matter what angle the track is at.

[Gary29]

I love it. It's just what the sport has needed after the last few years of MV dominance. It's box office again, and I'll bet Silverstone are loving it, there's going to be lots of attention this weekend now, they'll wish they'd priced their tickets even higher now

I know Max and Lando are good friends off the track, but it's just not possible to maintain that 'love in' when you are going wheel to wheel and dog eat dog at 200mph, when there can only ever be one winner.

[Derek Smith]

rscott said:

Appears there were 2 good reasons for Hamilton's lack of performance - side pod and floor both look secondhand.

It was damaged on a kerb when he went off-circuit it seems, so self-inflicted.

[isaldiri]

Dave200 said:

Finlandese said:

Dave200 said:

The Skypad analysis literally shows him moving right under braking, and leaving Norris without a car's width on the outside. I'd say that was pretty "clear a case".

That was my take during the race too. PW claims that the footage shows Max steering perfectly straight while the track kinks. Lando held his position on track. Could he have moved more to the left? Perhaps, but should he have to? Obviously the stewards thought not. In any case Windsors analysis is interesting.

P.s. A bit of a feeling that both Max and Lando are trying to establish dominance on each other for these situations,but having trouble judging the actions of each other. In Barcelona it was Lando, in Austria it was Max. A marked difference to Leclerc/Max fights.

Using the angle of the corner to squeeze a car on the outside under braking, leaving them without a car's width, is still an offence worthy of a penalty.

You don't need to yank the wheel over to move under braking, and you always need to leave a car's width no matter what angle the track is at.

Disagree, verstappen didn't leave sufficient room and was (correctly) penalised. However, it's a very different thing using the corner to squeeze another car steering straight compared actively steering over under braking.

[Dave200]

isaldiri said:

Dave200 said:

Finlandese said:

Dave200 said:

The Skypad analysis literally shows him moving right under braking, and leaving Norris without a car's width on the outside. I'd say that was pretty "clear a case".

That was my take during the race too. PW claims that the footage shows Max steering perfectly straight while the track kinks. Lando held his position on track. Could he have moved more to the left? Perhaps, but should he have to? Obviously the stewards thought not. In any case Windsors analysis is interesting.

P.s. A bit of a feeling that both Max and Lando are trying to establish dominance on each other for these situations,but having trouble judging the actions of each other. In Barcelona it was Lando, in Austria it was Max. A marked difference to Leclerc/Max fights.

Using the angle of the corner to squeeze a car on the outside under braking, leaving them without a car's width, is still an offence worthy of a penalty.

You don't need to yank the wheel over to move under braking, and you always need to leave a car's width no matter what angle the track is at.

Disagree, verstappen didn't leave sufficient room and was (correctly) penalised. However, it's a very different thing using the corner to squeeze another car steering straight compared actively steering over under braking.

Using the curvature of the track to allow your car to move across under braking is still moving under braking, whether you yank the wheel or not.

[Presuming Ed]

I was never too bothered by Max;s antics in 2021 as I always thought it was necessary if he wanted to win his first championship against a guy in a faster car. Basically he had an excuse for being an aggressive so and so and part of me liked that win at all costs mentality. His aggression that year was swept under the carpet by those in power, who didn't want anyone beating Schumachers record.

Since putting 3 World titles behind him and coming across as a chilled out guy it seems we were duped. This chilled Max is only present as long as every other driver doesn't challenge him. I gave Max the benefit of the doubt when watching live and actually put a lot of the blame on Lando for what looked like old school dive bombing from desperate moves. That Red Bull is still a very fast car in a straight line and the McLaren just couldn't reel it in even with DRS. But watching Ant's Skypad talk, its clear Max was very subtle with his movement under breaking which unsettled Lando and created the errors in his driving hence the 5sec penalty.

What should be done, if this was a one off incident then nothing was so serious that a proper punishment needed handing out however a few more points should have been added to his license and with the grid getting closer anymore crashes would then bring a ban with the tooting up of points. Disappointing apart from I was pleased for Russell.

Anyway bring on Silverstone and let the fireworks carry on.

[andyA700]

ewand said:

ajprice said:

Ant is pretty clear that he feels Max is at fault for moving under braking and for causing the collision that ended Norris' race.

Q: Has anyone seen in-car footage from Max of that crash? I wouldn't be surprised to see him suddenly open the steering as Lando was trying to come around the outside (ie not just a matter of drifting to the outside and forcing Lando off, but deliberately moving the car to close the gap).

Hamlton mad the point in 2021 that Max just doesn't seem to think he should ever yield even if it leads to a crash. Let's hope we see more wheel to wheel racing for the rest of this season rather than the yawn fest of Verstappen running away with everything.

Well done Fernando for grabbing the fastest lap off him at the very end, even if he didn't get a point for it - that's just bragging rights and nothing else

Thanks for that, it clearly shows that Max was at fault for that coming together and for movement under braking on the previous attempts. The thing is they keep letting Max get away with this.

[isaldiri]

Dave200 said:

Using the curvature of the track to allow your car to move across under braking is still moving under braking, whether you yank the wheel or not.

As I said, the difference is in steering input. It’s not the same imo. Ymmv.

[RemarkLima]

Roofless Toothless said:

DeejRC said:

You have missed the entire pt though. There is no such thing as
“Sporting integrity” in professional sports. There is only earning the money. That comes from either winning, or ensuring exposure.
Once you earnt “enough” money, then you may find some sporting ethics, morality or integrity. When you are hungry, nasty and obsessed though - nope.
Guys like Like and George are “nice”, well brought up middle class boys. Guys like Max and Lewis are psychopaths who want to put a fking axe through your head and they don’t care. Mentally - it’s a different world.

I am sorry, mate, but that’s a pretty depressing outlook on life.

Agreed, I think that's a very cynical outlook. There are a lot of sports professionals who train incredibly hard, and have dedicated years of their life to their chosen sport, and are then tarred with being "just in it for the money". They'll want to win, and bend the rules where they can, but also have integrity - after all, you have to live with yourself and your decisions. I don't think I've ever seen Hamilton in that same light as alluded to above.

[Byker28i]

andyA700 said:

ewand said:

ajprice said:

Ant is pretty clear that he feels Max is at fault for moving under braking and for causing the collision that ended Norris' race.

Q: Has anyone seen in-car footage from Max of that crash? I wouldn't be surprised to see him suddenly open the steering as Lando was trying to come around the outside (ie not just a matter of drifting to the outside and forcing Lando off, but deliberately moving the car to close the gap).

Hamlton mad the point in 2021 that Max just doesn't seem to think he should ever yield even if it leads to a crash. Let's hope we see more wheel to wheel racing for the rest of this season rather than the yawn fest of Verstappen running away with everything.

Well done Fernando for grabbing the fastest lap off him at the very end, even if he didn't get a point for it - that's just bragging rights and nothing else

Thanks for that, it clearly shows that Max was at fault for that coming together and for movement under braking on the previous attempts. The thing is they keep letting Max get away with this.

Makes it really clear that Max was middle of the circuit and when Lando made his move there was more than a cars width up the outside. You can see Max move across as Lando is half way alongside.

They brought in these rules because of Max's poor driving previously

[Sandpit Steve]

RemarkLima said:

Agreed, I think that's a very cynical outlook. There are a lot of sports professionals who train incredibly hard, and have dedicated years of their life to their chosen sport, and are then tarred with being "just in it for the money". They'll want to win, and bend the rules where they can, but also have integrity - after all, you have to live with yourself and your decisions. I don't think I've ever seen Hamilton in that same light as alluded to above.

The contrast was clear yesterday. “Sorry Guys” from Lewis on the radio, after he came into the pits sideways and got himself a penalty. There’s very few occasions on which Lewis has received a penalty that he’s been anything other than contrite, and while he’s made mistakes there’s never been any suggestion of malice on his part, even in the chaotic seasons that were 2016 and 2021.

Whereas any and every time Max makes a mistake, he’ll deny it flatly, blame the other guy, and then send out his wker of a team boss to keep defending the indefensible.

[Biggles Flies Undone]

The stewards saw it as Verstappen's fault and from looking at all of the footage and seeing it live, I don't think there can be any doubt about the collision between Verstappen and Norris being Verstappen's fault.

Given how much he was moving in the braking area when under attack previously, then it is obvious that the excuse about it being to do with the car simply reacting under braking is patently false. If it was that unstable under braking, then why isn't it doing it during qualifying or any other time he is on the limit? It is only when another car is in the mix that suddenly he finds it impossible to keep it under control.

It's a bit sad really that he is using these sort of excuses. He's too good to need them. He's a fantastic driver and one of the greats, he doesn't need to make excuses for his driving. If Norris beats him, then so be it, that is what F1 is about, sometimes you aren't the fastest package out there. It doesn't mean you should suddenly turn into Dick Dastardly.

Fight hard, but fight fairly. The last bit is where Verstappen seems to fall down on and that is very much to his detriment as a driver. He's got nothing to prove to anyone anymore, we all know how good he is and in recent times, I thought he'd smoothed off his rough edges and he was becoming a much more likeable character and driver, but to butcher a phrase, it seems leopards can't change their racing stripes.

[Forester1965]

You have to leave a car's width. Doesn't matter whether it's your steering input or the track changing direction, you have to leave the width. Verstappen didn't.

The time based penalties for this don't really work because they can be draconian (a safety car towards the end could effectively put you last) or meaningless, as we had yesterday when Verstappen was >10 seconds in front of the next car. An available penalty should be a fixed 'x' number of places dropped from the finishing position if the result of the offence serious enough.