The Official F1 2024 silly season *contains speculation*
Discussion
Dr Murdoch said:
TheDeuce said:
Are you really going to be that basic about why people are attributing blame..?
No one is saying it's wrong to drive competitively and to have a go, but common sense has to come into that. If the risk is obviously high and the only person you can beat is your team mate, then you're taking a high risk with the fortunes of your entire team at stake.
It was a high risk, low reward decision - one that he shouldn't have made, yet seems to make instinctively time after time.
What is there to say? His instincts as a racer, possibly not anything he can help, result in him finding more trouble than success. If he can't address that aspect of himself as a racer, he's unlikely to remain in F1.
I would go further, A. As I understand it the team agreed before the race that they would hold station, so Gasly would assume that he would not be attacked by Ocon at that point and B. and most importantly imo, Ocon disobeyed team instructions.No one is saying it's wrong to drive competitively and to have a go, but common sense has to come into that. If the risk is obviously high and the only person you can beat is your team mate, then you're taking a high risk with the fortunes of your entire team at stake.
It was a high risk, low reward decision - one that he shouldn't have made, yet seems to make instinctively time after time.
What is there to say? His instincts as a racer, possibly not anything he can help, result in him finding more trouble than success. If he can't address that aspect of himself as a racer, he's unlikely to remain in F1.
Dr Murdoch said:
TheDeuce said:
Are you really going to be that basic about why people are attributing blame..?
No one is saying it's wrong to drive competitively and to have a go, but common sense has to come into that. If the risk is obviously high and the only person you can beat is your team mate, then you're taking a high risk with the fortunes of your entire team at stake.
It was a high risk, low reward decision - one that he shouldn't have made, yet seems to make instinctively time after time.
What is there to say? His instincts as a racer, possibly not anything he can help, result in him finding more trouble than success. If he can't address that aspect of himself as a racer, he's unlikely to remain in F1.
I would go further, A. As I understand it the team agreed before the race that they would hold station, so Gasly would assume that he would not be attacked by Ocon at that point and B. and most importantly imo, Ocon disobeyed team instructions.No one is saying it's wrong to drive competitively and to have a go, but common sense has to come into that. If the risk is obviously high and the only person you can beat is your team mate, then you're taking a high risk with the fortunes of your entire team at stake.
It was a high risk, low reward decision - one that he shouldn't have made, yet seems to make instinctively time after time.
What is there to say? His instincts as a racer, possibly not anything he can help, result in him finding more trouble than success. If he can't address that aspect of himself as a racer, he's unlikely to remain in F1.
But 6 years ago this happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSAaVq4Dsw
Which strongly suggests his instinct is to go for any opportunity, even if it's entirely pointless. Racing Max when he's a lap down? f
k it, let's give it a go!I think that's my main criticism of the guy, his 'instinct' overrules all common sense, team orders, team play, safety, even his own results.
TheDeuce said:
Dr Murdoch said:
TheDeuce said:
Are you really going to be that basic about why people are attributing blame..?
No one is saying it's wrong to drive competitively and to have a go, but common sense has to come into that. If the risk is obviously high and the only person you can beat is your team mate, then you're taking a high risk with the fortunes of your entire team at stake.
It was a high risk, low reward decision - one that he shouldn't have made, yet seems to make instinctively time after time.
What is there to say? His instincts as a racer, possibly not anything he can help, result in him finding more trouble than success. If he can't address that aspect of himself as a racer, he's unlikely to remain in F1.
I would go further, A. As I understand it the team agreed before the race that they would hold station, so Gasly would assume that he would not be attacked by Ocon at that point and B. and most importantly imo, Ocon disobeyed team instructions.No one is saying it's wrong to drive competitively and to have a go, but common sense has to come into that. If the risk is obviously high and the only person you can beat is your team mate, then you're taking a high risk with the fortunes of your entire team at stake.
It was a high risk, low reward decision - one that he shouldn't have made, yet seems to make instinctively time after time.
What is there to say? His instincts as a racer, possibly not anything he can help, result in him finding more trouble than success. If he can't address that aspect of himself as a racer, he's unlikely to remain in F1.
But 6 years ago this happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSAaVq4Dsw
Which strongly suggests his instinct is to go for any opportunity, even if it's entirely pointless. Racing Max when he's a lap down? f
k it, let's give it a go!I think that's my main criticism of the guy, his 'instinct' overrules all common sense, team orders, team play, safety, even his own results.
Can they go back and look at the carnage kev incident again?
He has been a bit of a tt this season. Im guessing he is out of Haas at the end of the year as its not the gunter show anymore where he employes his pals.
Only the mclaren guy is brave enough to call him out. The rest of the world are like scared sheep banging on about the tame low speed ocon incident.
At least the FIA prez has grown a pair and told Andretti to do the obvious.
He has been a bit of a t
t this season. Im guessing he is out of Haas at the end of the year as its not the gunter show anymore where he employes his pals.Only the mclaren guy is brave enough to call him out. The rest of the world are like scared sheep banging on about the tame low speed ocon incident.
At least the FIA prez has grown a pair and told Andretti to do the obvious.
HTP99 said:
TheDeuce said:
Dr Murdoch said:
TheDeuce said:
Are you really going to be that basic about why people are attributing blame..?
No one is saying it's wrong to drive competitively and to have a go, but common sense has to come into that. If the risk is obviously high and the only person you can beat is your team mate, then you're taking a high risk with the fortunes of your entire team at stake.
It was a high risk, low reward decision - one that he shouldn't have made, yet seems to make instinctively time after time.
What is there to say? His instincts as a racer, possibly not anything he can help, result in him finding more trouble than success. If he can't address that aspect of himself as a racer, he's unlikely to remain in F1.
I would go further, A. As I understand it the team agreed before the race that they would hold station, so Gasly would assume that he would not be attacked by Ocon at that point and B. and most importantly imo, Ocon disobeyed team instructions.No one is saying it's wrong to drive competitively and to have a go, but common sense has to come into that. If the risk is obviously high and the only person you can beat is your team mate, then you're taking a high risk with the fortunes of your entire team at stake.
It was a high risk, low reward decision - one that he shouldn't have made, yet seems to make instinctively time after time.
What is there to say? His instincts as a racer, possibly not anything he can help, result in him finding more trouble than success. If he can't address that aspect of himself as a racer, he's unlikely to remain in F1.
But 6 years ago this happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSAaVq4Dsw
Which strongly suggests his instinct is to go for any opportunity, even if it's entirely pointless. Racing Max when he's a lap down? f
k it, let's give it a go!I think that's my main criticism of the guy, his 'instinct' overrules all common sense, team orders, team play, safety, even his own results.
Pass Max by all means, but when you're fighting for nothing but do have something to lose (your car/job..) pass Max in a way that he's aware of in a safer place. It's not as if Max (even though he's Max) was going to bother scrapping with lap-down Ocon and risk his GP win is it?
It's obvious why it was dumb, it's obvious why Ocon got the penalty. And an extra penalty from Max later on - I can't justify that bit though...
TheDeuce said:
I'm sure Ocon would say that he instinctively acted as a racing driver blah blah.
But 6 years ago this happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSAaVq4Dsw
Which strongly suggests his instinct is to go for any opportunity, even if it's entirely pointless. Racing Max when he's a lap down? fk it, let's give it a go!
I think that's my main criticism of the guy, his 'instinct' overrules all common sense, team orders, team play, safety, even his own results.
Ocon also had his contretemps with Perez when they were teammates at Force India.But 6 years ago this happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSAaVq4Dsw
Which strongly suggests his instinct is to go for any opportunity, even if it's entirely pointless. Racing Max when he's a lap down? f
k it, let's give it a go!I think that's my main criticism of the guy, his 'instinct' overrules all common sense, team orders, team play, safety, even his own results.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7meRNow95rI
At the time the consensus was people sided with Ocon giving back what Perez had done to others in the past. Looking back Ocon is too uncompromising and seems unwilling to change.
entropy said:
TheDeuce said:
I'm sure Ocon would say that he instinctively acted as a racing driver blah blah.
But 6 years ago this happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSAaVq4Dsw
Which strongly suggests his instinct is to go for any opportunity, even if it's entirely pointless. Racing Max when he's a lap down? fk it, let's give it a go!
I think that's my main criticism of the guy, his 'instinct' overrules all common sense, team orders, team play, safety, even his own results.
Ocon also had his contretemps with Perez when they were teammates at Force India.But 6 years ago this happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSAaVq4Dsw
Which strongly suggests his instinct is to go for any opportunity, even if it's entirely pointless. Racing Max when he's a lap down? f
k it, let's give it a go!I think that's my main criticism of the guy, his 'instinct' overrules all common sense, team orders, team play, safety, even his own results.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7meRNow95rI
At the time the consensus was people sided with Ocon giving back what Perez had done to others in the past. Looking back Ocon is too uncompromising and seems unwilling to change.
Has Ocon ever actually got on well with a team mate for at least a single season?
carl_w said:
Mirror reporting that Alpine are bringing back Flavio Briatore as a special adviser
Joe Saward reports that the rumour is they want him to run the team again. He also reports a rumour that the Renault CEO is shopping around for another engine supplier, indicating that Renault are about to ditch their 2026 PU plans to become a customer team.
thegreenhell said:
carl_w said:
Mirror reporting that Alpine are bringing back Flavio Briatore as a special adviser
Joe Saward reports that the rumour is they want him to run the team again. He also reports a rumour that the Renault CEO is shopping around for another engine supplier, indicating that Renault are about to ditch their 2026 PU plans to become a customer team.
TheDeuce said:
thegreenhell said:
carl_w said:
Mirror reporting that Alpine are bringing back Flavio Briatore as a special adviser
Joe Saward reports that the rumour is they want him to run the team again. He also reports a rumour that the Renault CEO is shopping around for another engine supplier, indicating that Renault are about to ditch their 2026 PU plans to become a customer team.
HTP99 said:
TheDeuce said:
thegreenhell said:
carl_w said:
Mirror reporting that Alpine are bringing back Flavio Briatore as a special adviser
Joe Saward reports that the rumour is they want him to run the team again. He also reports a rumour that the Renault CEO is shopping around for another engine supplier, indicating that Renault are about to ditch their 2026 PU plans to become a customer team.
Andretti probably making it very obvious they'll pay handsomely for the team - any team really, any way in to the sport they can find...
Supporting factors for team sale:
1) Talent leaving the team, no major signings to replace them - as you might expect if you're 'clean slating' the team for sale
2) A complete lack of positive results for Alpine/Renault or Renaults reputation as an engine builder in modern F1
3) Renault exiting as an Engine builder...? Again, would kinda have to as Andretti wouldn't use a Renault PU and, ahem, nobody else wants it.
It could all be a coincidence of course! Time will tell..
thegreenhell said:
Muzzer79 said:
Adrian W said:
Hopefully he will get offered a drive of a good car
So he can regularly try and take his team mate out in that instead?Ocon needs to learn that sometimes, just sometimes, going for the gap isn’t a good idea.
Yuki is now a surprise favourite to go to Audi, with Sainz expected to sign for Williams, according to Saward's latest paddock gossip.
I’d be amazed if Andretti were to stump up and buy a team, their whole business model has been start an F1 “franchise” on the cheap with the current Concorde Agreement and then raise the value in line with the other teams.
Unless renault are so desperate to get out they’ll sell on the cheap but then who would pass up buying a “cheap” F1 team at the moment?
Unless renault are so desperate to get out they’ll sell on the cheap but then who would pass up buying a “cheap” F1 team at the moment?
PRO5T said:
I’d be amazed if Andretti were to stump up and buy a team, their whole business model has been start an F1 “franchise” on the cheap with the current Concorde Agreement and then raise the value in line with the other teams.
Unless renault are so desperate to get out they’ll sell on the cheap but then who would pass up buying a “cheap” F1 team at the moment?
I'm sure Andretti would far rather be 'allowed in' for a few hundred million, and as almost instantly have a $1bn+ asset regardless of the teams actual performance... But that was never very realistic, as seen to by the other teams campaigning heavily against it.Unless renault are so desperate to get out they’ll sell on the cheap but then who would pass up buying a “cheap” F1 team at the moment?
What we don't know is if that was the only way Andretti would/could pay to enter, or if it was just a preference. What we do know is that whatever they may pay for Renault, the value of the asset would be safe so they don't risk losing money.. And the asset will likely steadily rise in value, quite possibly enough to keep anyone financing the purchase happy. The team could also quite easily make a healthy profit too - assuming the US sponsors bite and the on track performance is at least respectable.
In order to take a run up to 2026 regs, and give GM that time frame to refine their F1 PU solution into a working package, they'd pretty much need to hit the ground running next season, so if it's going to happen in time time for the 2026 regs change, we should know one way or the other soon!
I'd like to see them enter - and tbh am very happy to see Renault taking a little break from F1 again for a while, they've been less than impressive in recent years!
TheDeuce said:
Of course he's allowed to unlap himself, but that's taking a very dumbed down approach again - which is the criticism.
Pass Max by all means, but when you're fighting for nothing but do have something to lose (your car/job..) pass Max in a way that he's aware of in a safer place. It's not as if Max (even though he's Max) was going to bother scrapping with lap-down Ocon and risk his GP win is it?
It's obvious why it was dumb, it's obvious why Ocon got the penalty. And an extra penalty from Max later on - I can't justify that bit though...
But Max did bother scrapping with a lap-down Ocon. He knew he was there as Ocon was slightly ahead braking into the left-hander. Max could have let him go, but he tried to take the racing line into the right-hander instead and they came together. That was certainly dumb.Pass Max by all means, but when you're fighting for nothing but do have something to lose (your car/job..) pass Max in a way that he's aware of in a safer place. It's not as if Max (even though he's Max) was going to bother scrapping with lap-down Ocon and risk his GP win is it?
It's obvious why it was dumb, it's obvious why Ocon got the penalty. And an extra penalty from Max later on - I can't justify that bit though...
HardtopManual said:
TheDeuce said:
Of course he's allowed to unlap himself, but that's taking a very dumbed down approach again - which is the criticism.
Pass Max by all means, but when you're fighting for nothing but do have something to lose (your car/job..) pass Max in a way that he's aware of in a safer place. It's not as if Max (even though he's Max) was going to bother scrapping with lap-down Ocon and risk his GP win is it?
It's obvious why it was dumb, it's obvious why Ocon got the penalty. And an extra penalty from Max later on - I can't justify that bit though...
But Max did bother scrapping with a lap-down Ocon. He knew he was there as Ocon was slightly ahead braking into the left-hander. Max could have let him go, but he tried to take the racing line into the right-hander instead and they came together. That was certainly dumb.Pass Max by all means, but when you're fighting for nothing but do have something to lose (your car/job..) pass Max in a way that he's aware of in a safer place. It's not as if Max (even though he's Max) was going to bother scrapping with lap-down Ocon and risk his GP win is it?
It's obvious why it was dumb, it's obvious why Ocon got the penalty. And an extra penalty from Max later on - I can't justify that bit though...
The way Ocon did it, there was far more risk than was necessary. I find that impossible to justify when Ocon was 'fighting' for literally nothing. That's the crux of it, whatever Max could have done better/differently, doesn't really matter. If Max had departed the line and avoided the collision, I would still think Ocon was mad to take the risk, to try so aggressively to pass the race leader who was a lap ahead.
Bonkers.
TheDeuce said:
HardtopManual said:
TheDeuce said:
Of course he's allowed to unlap himself, but that's taking a very dumbed down approach again - which is the criticism.
Pass Max by all means, but when you're fighting for nothing but do have something to lose (your car/job..) pass Max in a way that he's aware of in a safer place. It's not as if Max (even though he's Max) was going to bother scrapping with lap-down Ocon and risk his GP win is it?
It's obvious why it was dumb, it's obvious why Ocon got the penalty. And an extra penalty from Max later on - I can't justify that bit though...
But Max did bother scrapping with a lap-down Ocon. He knew he was there as Ocon was slightly ahead braking into the left-hander. Max could have let him go, but he tried to take the racing line into the right-hander instead and they came together. That was certainly dumb.Pass Max by all means, but when you're fighting for nothing but do have something to lose (your car/job..) pass Max in a way that he's aware of in a safer place. It's not as if Max (even though he's Max) was going to bother scrapping with lap-down Ocon and risk his GP win is it?
It's obvious why it was dumb, it's obvious why Ocon got the penalty. And an extra penalty from Max later on - I can't justify that bit though...
The way Ocon did it, there was far more risk than was necessary. I find that impossible to justify when Ocon was 'fighting' for literally nothing. That's the crux of it, whatever Max could have done better/differently, doesn't really matter. If Max had departed the line and avoided the collision, I would still think Ocon was mad to take the risk, to try so aggressively to pass the race leader who was a lap ahead.
Bonkers.
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