Official 2024 Austrian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

[kambites]

rscott said:

Appears there were 2 good reasons for Hamilton's lack of performance - side pod and floor both look secondhand.

Presumably the sidepod damage was from his contact with Sainz in turn one. Perez apparently had similar damage.

[heebeegeetee]

DeejRC said:

You have missed the entire pt though. There is no such thing as
“Sporting integrity” in professional sports. There is only earning the money. That comes from either winning, or ensuring exposure.
Once you earnt “enough” money, then you may find some sporting ethics, morality or integrity. When you are hungry, nasty and obsessed though - nope.
Guys like Like and George are “nice”, well brought up middle class boys. Guys like Max and Lewis are psychopaths who want to put a fking axe through your head and they don’t care. Mentally - it’s a different world.

I don't think I agree.

There have been plenty of top drivers who don't struggle in the wheel to wheel stuff.

Racing is probably tougher in the feeder series and the likes of George and Lando coped with all that. They did far more of it than Max too.

[Sandpit Steve]

heebeegeetee said:

I don't think I agree.

There have been plenty of top drivers who don't struggle in the wheel to wheel stuff.

Racing is probably tougher in the feeder series and the likes of George and Lando coped with all that. They did far more of it than Max too.

Yes, Max never did FIA F3 or F2, where even the very best drivers aren’t winning all the time and need to learn good racecraft. Max did one season in Euro F3 then straight to F1.

Driving like a dick isn’t on when you’re a teenager, but most of the teenagers quickly grow out of it, and aren’t still being dicks 200 races into their F1 career.

That said, the oldest and most experienced driver currently in F1 also got done for driving like a dick earlier this season.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-d...

[mr pg]

stinkyspanner said:

I don't know if we're talking about the.same thing but Max definitely parked it at the apex of the hairpin in amongst that battle. Oldest trick in the stty defending book, and almost cost Lando his front wing. No point bhing about it though, he just has to double his resolve and think 'far queue Max'

I meant after Max punctured and when Lando tried to pass him. Max clearly just veered to block him, and then of course Lando's puncture became apparent.

[2fast748]

Having finally watched the race last night I'd say it wasn't quite as bad as some of Max's previous efforts at that kind of robust defence, but he hasn't learnt from past behaviours either. Andrea Stella is right though.

[KobayashiMaru86]

If it only a 10s penalty for nerfing someone off, I'd be tempted to nerf him off every race so he understands. The penalties need to be far harsher, stewards are still indecisive unless it's an easy penalty.

[Roofless Toothless]

DeejRC said:

You have missed the entire pt though. There is no such thing as
“Sporting integrity” in professional sports. There is only earning the money. That comes from either winning, or ensuring exposure.
Once you earnt “enough” money, then you may find some sporting ethics, morality or integrity. When you are hungry, nasty and obsessed though - nope.
Guys like Like and George are “nice”, well brought up middle class boys. Guys like Max and Lewis are psychopaths who want to put a fking axe through your head and they don’t care. Mentally - it’s a different world.

I am sorry, mate, but that’s a pretty depressing outlook on life.

[ewand]

ajprice said:

Ant is pretty clear that he feels Max is at fault for moving under braking and for causing the collision that ended Norris' race.

Q: Has anyone seen in-car footage from Max of that crash? I wouldn't be surprised to see him suddenly open the steering as Lando was trying to come around the outside (ie not just a matter of drifting to the outside and forcing Lando off, but deliberately moving the car to close the gap).

Hamlton mad the point in 2021 that Max just doesn't seem to think he should ever yield even if it leads to a crash. Let's hope we see more wheel to wheel racing for the rest of this season rather than the yawn fest of Verstappen running away with everything.

Well done Fernando for grabbing the fastest lap off him at the very end, even if he didn't get a point for it - that's just bragging rights and nothing else

[Hungrymc]

jasonrobertson86 said:

Hungrymc said:

That’s just an attempt to excuse a dreadful attitude with “they’re all the same”. They’re not. Max and RedBull are an extreme example.

This is also why some don’t see MS as the ‘great’ that his record suggests.

As Max says, who gives a stuff about 'some opinions', everyone has one and they'll never be the same.

Yep. That is what Max says. And when the rules have been applied in such a bizarre and inconsistent way for years (even 2021 brought up in this thread) he can easily find justification for his actions, if he’s that way inclined, which he is.

Doesn’t change the fact that he had a habit of driving like this under pressure, then trying to gaslight everyone about it. It really is the RedBull culture though so it all fits together.

[rscott]

Very clear here that Max moves twice in the braking zone (Ant said you brake at the 100m board)
https://x.com/jpappone/status/1807442876651000261?...

[spikyone]

Hungrymc said:

DeejRC said:

You have missed the entire pt though. There is no such thing as
“Sporting integrity” in professional sports. There is only earning the money. That comes from either winning, or ensuring exposure.
Once you earnt “enough” money, then you may find some sporting ethics, morality or integrity. When you are hungry, nasty and obsessed though - nope.
Guys like Like and George are “nice”, well brought up middle class boys. Guys like Max and Lewis are psychopaths who want to put a fking axe through your head and they don’t care. Mentally - it’s a different world.

That’s just an attempt to excuse a dreadful attitude with “they’re all the same”. They’re not. Max and RedBull are an extreme example.

This is also why some don’t see MS as the ‘great’ that his record suggests.

Agree, DeejRC is talking some prize winning nonsense here. Schumacher was still dirty after winning 7 titles - shoving Rubens towards the pitwall in Hungary, parking it across the track in Monaco. Yet Lewis, having won as many titles and about to break Schumacher's record, managed to race cleanly against Max even as the title was being stolen from him.

Has Lewis raced hard in the past? Of course. But I don't see a lack of sporting integrity where he's concerned, he generally keeps it the right side of the line. I'm sure someone with a vivid imagination will mention Silverstone, but despite the daft murder claims that was a legitimate overtake attempt that Hamilton pulled off against Leclerc, who had no complaints about it.

There are countless elite sportsmen and women who have incredible drive to win, but won't do anything dirty to achieve it. Outside of football, where the constant diving is a blight on the game, the dirty competitors are vastly outweighed by the fair ones.

[BrettMRC]

Coming next sunday!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIKel6jVD3Q

[Forester1965]

Verstappen does what he does because it makes drivers think twice about trying to pass him. If they're uncertain, they're less likely to try and when they do it's more likely to be half hearted. Most other drivers treat Verstappen like the back of an angry donkey. Those that don't often end up retiring from the race (Monza '21 and this race being examples).

In both cases Max won by doing it.

He won't modify his approach until it costs him or likely to cost him a championship.

Personally I think he needs a race ban or two but in these business-first days I think it's very unlikely.

[Finlandese]

As most here, my take during the race was that Max was moving under braking and clearly in the wrong. Based on his after race comments I started to doubt moving under braking in the cases prior to the one that lead to the accident.

It seems that Max was gaming the "Max rule" and twitched just before braking. Technically not moving under the braking but achieving the same end result.

Well, the incident that led to the contact, surely that was a clear cut moving under braking? After listening to Peter Windsor, I am not sure any more.

https://youtu.be/1aUP8Mz8Vkk?si=LPEBbDXK0tStsT4X

A shame in any case.

Edited by Finlandese on Monday 1st July 08:54

Edited by Finlandese on Monday 1st July 08:54

[Still Mulling]

"Hurrah", I hear you say, "the SM post-race-analysis is here!"

What a fun race

Really came alive at the end. Some sadly unsurprising actions throughout the field w.r.t. poor race-craft, but pleased for Mercedes that they got a win after finally nailing some consistent improvement; pleased for the folks at the factory/offices/track who have toiled to make it happen.

Sainz's dilly-dallying is beginning to annoy me now. I like the guy, but just make a decision, please.

FIA need to take a long, hard look at themselves and go about righting how the define and police driving standards. The lower formulae learn from this.

I'd like to see somebody make moves on Max that exactly mirror those instances that he has got away with in the past. I'd be interested to hear his and RB's reactions.

Looking forward to Silverstone!

[thegreenhell]

Forester1965 said:

Verstappen does what he does because it makes drivers think twice about trying to pass him. If they're uncertain, they're less likely to try and when they do it's more likely to be half hearted. Most other drivers treat Verstappen like the back of an angry donkey. Those that don't often end up retiring from the race (Monza '21 and this race being examples).

In both cases Max won by doing it.

He won't modify his approach until it costs him or likely to cost him a championship.

Personally I think he needs a race ban or two but in these business-first days I think it's very unlikely.

Somebody, and I hope it's Lando, or preferably any driver who is able to challenge him now, needs to be brave enough to stand up to Max and not jump out of the way when he does this stuff. The only way he'll learn is a few race ending collisions and the resulting penalties for taking the full blame for the incidents.

[Dave200]

Posted the same on the Max thread, but he really seems to lose his mind when he's asked to defend against someone in comparable machinery.

He seems like he's goading other drivers into contact. The majority of the time being the 3-time champion and having a fast car means that the other drivers tend to yield to save their own race.

This weekend we saw what happens when the other driver doesn't yield. If RB's pace advantage has truly slipped, then I'm predicting that we'll see more of this in the second half of the season.

My biggest issue is that, if every driver defended like Max, and the stewards continue to be fairly lax about penalising for forcing others off the road, F1 would be a dodgem shambles.

Edited by Dave200 on Monday 1st July 09:26

[Drew106]

thegreenhell said:

Forester1965 said:

Verstappen does what he does because it makes drivers think twice about trying to pass him. If they're uncertain, they're less likely to try and when they do it's more likely to be half hearted. Most other drivers treat Verstappen like the back of an angry donkey. Those that don't often end up retiring from the race (Monza '21 and this race being examples).

In both cases Max won by doing it.

He won't modify his approach until it costs him or likely to cost him a championship.

Personally I think he needs a race ban or two but in these business-first days I think it's very unlikely.

Somebody, and I hope it's Lando, or preferably any driver who is able to challenge him now, needs to be brave enough to stand up to Max and not jump out of the way when he does this stuff. The only way he'll learn is a few race ending collisions and the resulting penalties for taking the full blame for the incidents.

Well we saw all of this in 21'. Hamilton stood his ground and it resulted in many crashes. Some race ending for Verstappen, some for both.

He wasn't punished. He also has Horner in his ear assuring him that he's the one in the right and it's all the commentators, analysts, journalists, drivers, fans etc. that are wrong.

It made the race exciting, no doubt. But I haven't missed the stress of watching a naughty child have a tantrum and then for the behaviour to be reinforced by their terrible parent (talking about Horner in this example, but his actual parent is probably the same).

[isaldiri]

Finlandese said:

As most here, my take during the race was that Max was moving under braking and clearly in the wrong. Based on his after race comments I started to doubt moving under braking in the cases prior to the one that lead to the accident.

It seems that Max was gaming the "Max rule" and twitched just before braking. Technically not moving under the braking but achieving the same end result.

Well, the incident that led to the contact, surely that was a clear cut moving under braking? After listening to Peter Windsor, I am not sure any more.

https://youtu.be/1aUP8Mz8Vkk?si=LPEBbDXK0tStsT4X

A shame in any case.

Edited by Finlandese on Monday 1st July 08:54

Edited by Finlandese on Monday 1st July 08:54

Tbh I think the only really naughty one from Verstappen was the first one where Norris had to bail to the outside. On the one that caused contact, he should have left more space and rightly was penalised after but it wasn’t anywhere near as clear a case of moving after braking like earlier. Ultimately though if a driver that’s going to try to defend by daring contact meets a driver who’s determined to pass with a ‘yield or else’ move, they are going to end up crashing - the only question is how serious….

[vaud]

Good race, enjoyed it. Reminded me of Senna vs Prost. Great that we have at least 2 cars that can race each other.

Pleased for Russell, Piastri and Sainz.

Sainz should be in the other Red Bull.

Shocking from Perez and to some extent Hamilton.