The Official F1 2025 silly season *contains speculation*

[Western Musketeer]

wouldn't there be a problem for a for a Renault owned company to have Honda engines when they are in partnership with Nissan and Mitsubishi?

[ajprice]

Western Musketeer said:

wouldn't there be a problem for a for a Renault owned company to have Honda engines when they are in partnership with Nissan and Mitsubishi?

No more than a Sauber BMW Ferrari or a Red Bull Aston Martin Honda. I might have the names in the wrong order on those.

[TheDeuce]

Western Musketeer said:

wouldn't there be a problem for a for a Renault owned company to have Honda engines when they are in partnership with Nissan and Mitsubishi?

As has been pointed out - they don't need the Honda engine supply so would only take it if it were offered and they wanted it. The team can negotiate supply from other manufacturers.

And as I pointed out, there is a very real possibility that the only reason Renault PU might out, could be because Renault actually won't own the team very soon anyway.

[PRO5T]

Plus it doesn't have to be known as a Honda (or whatever) if the money's right, you could badge it as a watch maker if you wanted

Don't go thinking all those Gulf oil drums in the McLaren pit contain Gulf oil either!

[Rotary Potato]

TheDeuce said:

...

In other words, Alpine are only really saleable if the Renault PU op is disconnected from the team, and as a result canned.

If the rumours are to be believed, Redbull may be in need of bit of a boost to their forthcoming engine. If that's the case, maybe a cheeky bid to buy the IP and/or a few key members of staff might give their program a shot in the arm. Saves the Renault PU work going entirely to waste ...

Although on the other hand ... it's hardly like Renault have produced a corker in recent history! I guess bidding on Renault's IP is like buying a lucky dip at a fete. You might end up with something good, but more likely than not you're pulling out a banana!

Edited by Rotary Potato on Thursday 6th June 10:13

[TheDeuce]

Rotary Potato said:

TheDeuce said:

...

In other words, Alpine are only really saleable if the Renault PU op is disconnected from the team, and as a result canned.

If the rumours are to be believed, Redbull may be in need of bit of a boost to their forthcoming engine. If that's the case, maybe a cheeky bid to buy the IP and/or a few key members of staff might give their program a shot in the arm. Saves the Renault PU work going entirely to waste ...

Although on the other hand ... it's hardly like Renault have produced a corker in recent history! I guess bidding on Renault's IP is like buying a lucky dip at a fete. You might end up with something good, but more likely than not you're pulling out a banana!

Edited by Rotary Potato on Thursday 6th June 10:13

I think the entire paddock have voted for exactly how useful they think the Renault PU is - no one wants it anymore!

For a while there was an argument that it made great power but it lacked reliability. I always assumed it lacked reliability because if it's power output.. And I would say that was confirmed in more recent years where reliability has been greatly improved but the cars it's powered are no longer longer straight line rocket ships. Tbh, I don't think they've had a competitive PU in terms of the balance of power/reliability for the last decade and I'd be surprised if they had any 'secrets' to sell that others haven't already figured out and improved upon or tried, tested and dismissed.

RBPT PU projected results are all rumours but it will indeed be quite the challenge for their maiden in-house PU design, in hand with their fledgeling partnership with Ford, to be as competitive out of the box as Merc or Ferrari, who are far more established and settled in the PU development game.

[Supersam83]

thegreenhell said:

Maybe, but there's also a rumour that Alpine are fishing for a Honda engine deal for '26 so that Renault can abandon its plans for a new PU and make the team more saleable.

Hasn't Ryan Renolds and his American consortium bought out 24% of Alpine F1 team recently?

So Renault only own 76% of the team.

[Rotary Potato]

TheDeuce said:

I think the entire paddock have voted for exactly how useful they think the Renault PU is - no one wants it anymore!

For a while there was an argument that it made great power but it lacked reliability. I always assumed it lacked reliability because if it's power output.. And I would say that was confirmed in more recent years where reliability has been greatly improved but the cars it's powered are no longer longer straight line rocket ships. Tbh, I don't think they've had a competitive PU in terms of the balance of power/reliability for the last decade and I'd be surprised if they had any 'secrets' to sell that others haven't already figured out and improved upon or tried, tested and dismissed.

RBPT PU projected results are all rumours but it will indeed be quite the challenge for their maiden in-house PU design, in hand with their fledgeling partnership with Ford, to be as competitive out of the box as Merc or Ferrari, who are far more established and settled in the PU development game.

I'd agree with you ... but with a new set of regs comes bit of a reset. It might not be a full 'clean sheet' change of engines, but it looks like enough will change to broadly reset the playing field, meaning that any one of the engine manufacturers working on the 2026 PU could have found something the others haven't. While recent history would suggest otherwise, there's nothing to say than Renault can't have found the edge this time round.

If Redbull are struggling as much as the rumours suggest (and that's definitely a very speculative 'if'), then I could see them wanting to have a peek behind that curtain if the price was sufficiently enticing.

Either way, I bet you it doesn't have a water pump integrated into the block!!!

[rallycross]

Supersam83 said:

Hasn't Ryan Renolds and his American consortium bought out 24% of Alpine F1 team recently?

.

Will this make it any easier for the Andretti’s to buy the team?

[deadslow]

rallycross said:

Supersam83 said:

Hasn't Ryan Renolds and his American consortium bought out 24% of Alpine F1 team recently?

.

Will this make it any easier for the Andretti’s to buy the team?

very interesting thought

[TheDeuce]

deadslow said:

rallycross said:

Supersam83 said:

Hasn't Ryan Renolds and his American consortium bought out 24% of Alpine F1 team recently?

.

Will this make it any easier for the Andretti’s to buy the team?

very interesting thought

I don't see why it would. They'd need to be in cahoots with over 50% of shareholders to aggressively force a sale or drive down the asking price.

At some point down the line Reynolds and co will no doubt make a decent return on their investment when a sale does go ahead. Alternatively they could retain their 24% and Andretti could buy out the French owned 76% - either way they get a team they have full control over.

[TheDeuce]

Rotary Potato said:

TheDeuce said:

I think the entire paddock have voted for exactly how useful they think the Renault PU is - no one wants it anymore!

For a while there was an argument that it made great power but it lacked reliability. I always assumed it lacked reliability because if it's power output.. And I would say that was confirmed in more recent years where reliability has been greatly improved but the cars it's powered are no longer longer straight line rocket ships. Tbh, I don't think they've had a competitive PU in terms of the balance of power/reliability for the last decade and I'd be surprised if they had any 'secrets' to sell that others haven't already figured out and improved upon or tried, tested and dismissed.

RBPT PU projected results are all rumours but it will indeed be quite the challenge for their maiden in-house PU design, in hand with their fledgeling partnership with Ford, to be as competitive out of the box as Merc or Ferrari, who are far more established and settled in the PU development game.

I'd agree with you ... but with a new set of regs comes bit of a reset. It might not be a full 'clean sheet' change of engines, but it looks like enough will change to broadly reset the playing field, meaning that any one of the engine manufacturers working on the 2026 PU could have found something the others haven't. While recent history would suggest otherwise, there's nothing to say than Renault can't have found the edge this time round.

If Redbull are struggling as much as the rumours suggest (and that's definitely a very speculative 'if'), then I could see them wanting to have a peek behind that curtain if the price was sufficiently enticing.

Either way, I bet you it doesn't have a water pump integrated into the block!!!

Renault are openly questioning their commitment to develop a new regs PU, so I would imagine that until they've made a decision one way or another, they haven't even started on one just yet. Or the other way of looking at it is that they've got as far a the drawing board and concluded it's going to be a nightmare for them and very costly.

Who knows!? I personally think it's quite unlikely they'll be a PU manufacturer come 2026, and very unlikely that they'll be leading the field even if they are..

[vaud]

TheDeuce said:

Renault are openly questioning their commitment to develop a new regs PU, so I would imagine that until they've made a decision one way or another, they haven't even started on one just yet. Or the other way of looking at it is that they've got as far a the drawing board and concluded it's going to be a nightmare for them and very costly.

Who knows!? I personally think it's quite unlikely they'll be a PU manufacturer come 2026, and very unlikely that they'll be leading the field even if they are..

I agree - why be a manufacturing team with no customers for your engine in a new regs environment and where the bosses won't even let you catch up with the pack?

[hondajack85]

The new engine is less complex. The bits renault were struggling with are the bits not in it anymore. Thats why red bull think they can get involved with making engines.
Its only 2 years away. Do people think renault haven't started on it yet?

[vaud]

hondajack85 said:

The new engine is less complex. The bits renault were struggling with are the bits not in it anymore. Thats why red bull think they can get involved with making engines.
Its only 2 years away. Do people think renault haven't started on it yet?

I think the question is how advanced their development is and how real is the support from the board long term... maybe better for a valuation to get a customer engine (Honda) and fully package the team as Alpine with minimal connection to Renault, and cash in for $1bn?

[ThingsBehindTheSun]

TheDeuce said:

Renault are openly questioning their commitment to develop a new regs PU, so I would imagine that until they've made a decision one way or another, they haven't even started on one just yet. Or the other way of looking at it is that they've got as far a the drawing board and concluded it's going to be a nightmare for them and very costly.

Who knows!? I personally think it's quite unlikely they'll be a PU manufacturer come 2026, and very unlikely that they'll be leading the field even if they are..

How embarrassing to be a manufacturer team and not even build your own engine.

[TheDeuce]

vaud said:

hondajack85 said:

The new engine is less complex. The bits renault were struggling with are the bits not in it anymore. Thats why red bull think they can get involved with making engines.
Its only 2 years away. Do people think renault haven't started on it yet?

I think the question is how advanced their development is and how real is the support from the board long term... maybe better for a valuation to get a customer engine (Honda) and fully package the team as Alpine with minimal connection to Renault, and cash in for $1bn?

Quite possibly.

As for the new engine being less complex, that's true - BUT less complexity just means all manufacturers will shunt the same resources into more focus on the remaining bits, it'll be as competitive a project to design a new engine as it ever was. Also, that's just the engine... as a package, the powertrain is no less complex once the electrical bits are put into the mix. Mechanically and electrically there is nothing that's particularly difficult on either side, but getting the two to play in harmony and maximise efficiency and reliability is going to be a big part of what will equal success in this new regs era.

In Renault's position, the reality is that their last decade in F1 has bought nothing to smile about as a manufacturer, either in car or PU terms. Their PU has won races but only when it was turned up to 11 and frequently blowing up as a result - that's about the worst reputation a manufacturer can hope for when it comes to attaching a road car and line of engines to their involvement in F1. If they were to re-invest in this new era pf PU, the board would want to be very confident they weren't about to sign themselves up to a huge financial commitment that wasn't going to repeat the same results. So whatever Renault PU have put into the 2026 unit so far, the fact they're on the fence suggests they have yet to find that level of confidence.

[Sandpit Steve]

Rotary Potato said:

I'd agree with you ... but with a new set of regs comes bit of a reset. It might not be a full 'clean sheet' change of engines, but it looks like enough will change to broadly reset the playing field, meaning that any one of the engine manufacturers working on the 2026 PU could have found something the others haven't. While recent history would suggest otherwise, there's nothing to say than Renault can't have found the edge this time round.

If Redbull are struggling as much as the rumours suggest (and that's definitely a very speculative 'if'), then I could see them wanting to have a peek behind that curtain if the price was sufficiently enticing.

Either way, I bet you it doesn't have a water pump integrated into the block!!!

Ooh, what’s the integrated water pump story? Did someone put it so far inside the engine that they couldn’t replace it without breaking the FIA seals?

[asfault]

deadslow said:

rallycross said:

Supersam83 said:

Hasn't Ryan Renolds and his American consortium bought out 24% of Alpine F1 team recently?

.

Will this make it any easier for the Andretti’s to buy the team?

very interesting thought

This is what I think Muhammad whatever is trying to get to happen. I'd rather they were another separate team bring us up to 11 teams and 22 drivers which would be much better for the sport imo

[Leithen]

Supersam83 said:

thegreenhell said:

Maybe, but there's also a rumour that Alpine are fishing for a Honda engine deal for '26 so that Renault can abandon its plans for a new PU and make the team more saleable.

Hasn't Ryan Renolds and his American consortium bought out 24% of Alpine F1 team recently?

So Renault only own 76% of the team.

Never thought I’d see a Welsh F1 team, let alone one based in Wrexham.