Max Verstappen
Discussion
Teatowell said:
Take that to the extreme though, why does moving under braking rule allow for a judgement on whether it was erratic enough but something like track limits is absolute. E.g you could have said Piastris track limits wasn’t bad enough or Lewis going over the pit line wasn’t intentional.
Track limits infringements are judgements of fact, like jumped starts, and are objective. Erratic driving is subjective, but this is why you have stewards (hopefully) with experience of racing to interpret.I think it is too easy to blame the stewards when the real problem is the relationship between the commercial entities that own F1 and the FIA who govern it. Precious little of what goes at this level ever comes out.
Bas Jaski said:
honda_exige said:
Part of his appeal is that he won't just roll over, he takes things to the absolute limit and occasionally beyond.
If he goes to far - give him a penalty, all good.
You (and others) are acting like he shot your mum.
I hope McLaren continue to push, 2025 is looking like it might be peak F1. Beautiful driving, occasional dirty driving, all of it makes the rich tapestry of F1.
Lando pushing Max onto the grass in Spain - that was dirty too. Does it matter? Course not, great to see Lando finally not rolling over and just letting people come past.
You guys all claim to hate it but in reality it's just made you all even more anticipatory of Silverstone. Max is Box Office, simple as that. F1 is entertainment.
Mate there is no point arguing with these so blinded by their hatred for Max. It's a total waste of time.If he goes to far - give him a penalty, all good.
You (and others) are acting like he shot your mum.
I hope McLaren continue to push, 2025 is looking like it might be peak F1. Beautiful driving, occasional dirty driving, all of it makes the rich tapestry of F1.
Lando pushing Max onto the grass in Spain - that was dirty too. Does it matter? Course not, great to see Lando finally not rolling over and just letting people come past.
You guys all claim to hate it but in reality it's just made you all even more anticipatory of Silverstone. Max is Box Office, simple as that. F1 is entertainment.
See their total silence on Norris running Max off track in Spain lol. Not a peep!
you mean the one at the start where Verstappen touched the grass, having had the choice to back out of an overtake, but didn't...honda_exige said:
If he goes to far - give him a penalty, all good.
honda_exige said:
Max is Box Office, simple as that. F1 is entertainment.
'all good' is deterring drivers from moving in the braking zone ...because some of us remember & know why it's so dangerous- not to the drivers per se these days, but everyone else in those areas such as spectators & marshals- so it's very good claiming its great 'box office' (although i'd argue that had they not collided it would have continued to be even more 'box office' see Villeneuve & Arnoux) right up until the point a wheel un-tethers & goes bouncing into the crowdhonda_exige said:
The 'moving under braking' was deemed to not be erratic or dangerous enough to justify a penalty, even Herbert said that.
again, this is not 'just' the rule. it also includes 'any abnormal change of direction' ...unless you're arguing that Max does it so often that it's not abnormal anymore- not sure stewards take that view thoughas for others doing it? ...not a great defence tbh
Bas Jaski said:
Mate there is no point arguing with these so blinded by their hatred for Max. It's a total waste of time.
See their total silence on Norris running Max off track in Spain lol. Not a peep!
everyone knows that the start of a race is little bit different (for reasons which should be obvious) ...but yeah, if Lando dicks about crowding on the straights or moving in the braking zones, then yeah he can expect the same level of criticism ...but the problem isn't that a driver does it once or twice in a career, the problem is when a driver seems to do it more than that & it seems to be part of their DNASee their total silence on Norris running Max off track in Spain lol. Not a peep!
anonymous_user said:
Bas Jaski said:
Mate there is no point arguing with these so blinded by their hatred for Max. It's a total waste of time.
See their total silence on Norris running Max off track in Spain lol. Not a peep!
everyone knows that the start of a race is little bit different (for reasons which should be obvious) ...but yeah, if Lando dicks about crowding on the straights or moving in the braking zones, then yeah he can expect the same level of criticism ...but the problem isn't that a driver does it once or twice in a career, the problem is when a driver seems to do it more than that & it seems to be part of their DNASee their total silence on Norris running Max off track in Spain lol. Not a peep!
It's MAx's MO
It's exceptions to the rule for Lando (in this instance)
As I have said before...
gmaz said:
Has any other driver had a number of rules introduced specifically to curb their behaviour?
1. Changing line under braking
2. Being alongside the car in front, during safety car
3. Overtaking in the pitlane
Seems like the rule book needs to have a "Max's rules" section.
I wonder what the next "Max" rule to be introduced will be?1. Changing line under braking
2. Being alongside the car in front, during safety car
3. Overtaking in the pitlane
Seems like the rule book needs to have a "Max's rules" section.
MarkwG said:
you mean the one at the start where Verstappen touched the grass, having had the choice to back out of an overtake, but didn't...Oh wait! Can't do that because then that means giving in to Max...
FWIW I believe the penalty Max received was on point. I believe the FIA should've acted the first time he moved and given him a black and white flag for it immediately.
I also believe Norris could've used his brain more and do what Max did when Max was in Norris' position last year, and go an inch wider (still well within track limits) and use it as an opportunity to overtake.
People have gotten WAY to excited about this move. Really quite sad to be honest. Reading through the Monza 23 thread is quite amusing.
Bas Jaski said:
Mate there is no point arguing with these so blinded by their hatred for Max. It's a total waste of time.
It's nothing to do with 'hatred'. None of the problems are personal, there are no references here to, for example, Max's looks or clothing. The issues are entirely down to his behaviour.Your comment is an example of why I quit Twitter yesterday, that's the kind of thing seen there all the time.
BTW, quitting Twitter is great, I feel better already. I have even started a thread about it...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Roofless Toothless said:
Track limits infringements are judgements of fact, like jumped starts, and are objective. Erratic driving is subjective, but this is why you have stewards (hopefully) with experience of racing to interpret.
I think it is too easy to blame the stewards when the real problem is the relationship between the commercial entities that own F1 and the FIA who govern it. Precious little of what goes at this level ever comes out.
To be clear though, the rule is an absolute. No moving change of direction in the braking zone. So why the judgement. I think it is too easy to blame the stewards when the real problem is the relationship between the commercial entities that own F1 and the FIA who govern it. Precious little of what goes at this level ever comes out.
simon_harris said:
this is a great post and really highlighhts the issue not only with Max but alos with the rabid Max can do no wrong muppets in general.
Hard racing is exciting, even a bit of pushing and shoving in the right circumstances is no bad thing and I wish Max could do that because I agree that it would make for good viewing.
However all Max can do is drive into people to force them off the road and if I wanted to see that I would go to my local demolition derby.
I do no doubt that max has the capability to be that driver, his skill is undeniable but he has been taught by the FIA, Red Bull and his management team that he does not have to be that driver.
Perfectly summarises it IMOHard racing is exciting, even a bit of pushing and shoving in the right circumstances is no bad thing and I wish Max could do that because I agree that it would make for good viewing.
However all Max can do is drive into people to force them off the road and if I wanted to see that I would go to my local demolition derby.
I do no doubt that max has the capability to be that driver, his skill is undeniable but he has been taught by the FIA, Red Bull and his management team that he does not have to be that driver.
Roofless Toothless said:
Track limits infringements are judgements of fact, like jumped starts, and are objective. Erratic driving is subjective, but this is why you have stewards (hopefully) with experience of racing to interpret.
I think it is too easy to blame the stewards when the real problem is the relationship between the commercial entities that own F1 and the FIA who govern it. Precious little of what goes at this level ever comes out.
What you're describing is all objective. It's not asking "did the driver believe it's ok", rather "was the driving ok by the standards of the rules". The stewards apply the driving to the rules and decide if it's within or outwith. I think it is too easy to blame the stewards when the real problem is the relationship between the commercial entities that own F1 and the FIA who govern it. Precious little of what goes at this level ever comes out.
We get inconsistency in decisions because the rules aren't sufficiently clear which then opens the stewards to having made their own subjective view.
There have always been whooping great huge inconsistencies in stewarding decisions, I am sure anyone who is not of the DTS fanbase era will recall what FIA once stood for.
What now seems to be apparent is that decisions tend to vary by driver and this was most apparent in '21 not just at Abu Dhabi but throughout the latter part of the year culminating in that travesty.
What now seems to be apparent is that decisions tend to vary by driver and this was most apparent in '21 not just at Abu Dhabi but throughout the latter part of the year culminating in that travesty.
paulguitar said:
rev-erend said:
It's really up to Norris to learn how to respond to his aggressive defensive driving.
It really shouldn't be. Moving in braking zones has always been a massive no-no. It needs to be dealt with.
They just don't enforce them for Maxsimon_harris said:
There have always been whooping great huge inconsistencies in stewarding decisions, I am sure anyone who is not of the DTS fanbase era will recall what FIA once stood for.
What now seems to be apparent is that decisions tend to vary by driver and this was most apparent in '21 not just at Abu Dhabi but throughout the latter part of the year culminating in that travesty.
You could also argue the FIA was very lenient on Mercedes / Bottas for taking out Max. Skillfully done it must be said.What now seems to be apparent is that decisions tend to vary by driver and this was most apparent in '21 not just at Abu Dhabi but throughout the latter part of the year culminating in that travesty.
Mercedes were in contention for the '21 championship
https://www.planetf1.com/news/valtteri-bottas-carn...
gmaz said:
As I have said before...
Don't forget Minimum age to be granted an FIA Super Licencegmaz said:
Has any other driver had a number of rules introduced specifically to curb their behaviour?
1. Changing line under braking
2. Being alongside the car in front, during safety car
3. Overtaking in the pitlane
Seems like the rule book needs to have a "Max's rules" section.
I wonder what the next "Max" rule to be introduced will be?1. Changing line under braking
2. Being alongside the car in front, during safety car
3. Overtaking in the pitlane
Seems like the rule book needs to have a "Max's rules" section.
Bo_apex said:
simon_harris said:
There have always been whooping great huge inconsistencies in stewarding decisions, I am sure anyone who is not of the DTS fanbase era will recall what FIA once stood for.
What now seems to be apparent is that decisions tend to vary by driver and this was most apparent in '21 not just at Abu Dhabi but throughout the latter part of the year culminating in that travesty.
You could also argue the FIA was very lenient on Mercedes / Bottas for taking out Max. Skillfully done it must be said.What now seems to be apparent is that decisions tend to vary by driver and this was most apparent in '21 not just at Abu Dhabi but throughout the latter part of the year culminating in that travesty.
Mercedes were in contention for the '21 championship
https://www.planetf1.com/news/valtteri-bottas-carn...
You've hit something of a new low here recently, which is quite an achievement given where you were starting from.
paulguitar said:
Bo_apex said:
simon_harris said:
There have always been whooping great huge inconsistencies in stewarding decisions, I am sure anyone who is not of the DTS fanbase era will recall what FIA once stood for.
What now seems to be apparent is that decisions tend to vary by driver and this was most apparent in '21 not just at Abu Dhabi but throughout the latter part of the year culminating in that travesty.
You could also argue the FIA was very lenient on Mercedes / Bottas for taking out Max. Skillfully done it must be said.What now seems to be apparent is that decisions tend to vary by driver and this was most apparent in '21 not just at Abu Dhabi but throughout the latter part of the year culminating in that travesty.
Mercedes were in contention for the '21 championship
https://www.planetf1.com/news/valtteri-bottas-carn...
You've hit something of a new low here recently, which is quite an achievement given where you were starting from.
comments from the British GP:
Norris: Max doesn't need to apologise
Lando Norris further reflects on his collision with Max Verstappen:
"Yep, we did (speak).
"Honestly, I don’t think he needed to apologise. Some of the things I said in the pen after the race were more just because I was frustrated at the time, a lot of adrenaline, a lot of emotions and I probably said some things I didn’t necessarily believe in, especially later on in the week.
"It was tough. It was a pretty pathetic incident in terms of what ended both our races. It wasn’t like a hit, it wasn’t like an obvious bit of contact. It was probably one of the smallest bits of contact you could have, but with a pretty terrible consequence for both of us, especially for myself.
"He doesn’t need to. I don’t expect an apology from him. I don’t think he should apologise. I thought it was, as reviewed, good racing, at times maybe very close to the edge, but like I said we’ve spoken about it and we’re both happy to go racing again."
Russell: Drivers don't have to race Max differently
Mercedes' George Russell, the eventual race winner in Austria, on whether drivers have to race differently when wheel-to-wheel with Max Verstappen:
"I don’t think so, to be honest.
"You know Max is one of the best, is a hard racer and will push the rules to the limit as all of the top drivers do.
"We all know what the rules are, what the rules are around moving under braking. He probably pushed that slightly behind the limit. As for the incident, as Lando said, it was a very small thing with big consequences and part of racing.
"So short answer is 'no'."
Norris: Max doesn't need to apologise
Lando Norris further reflects on his collision with Max Verstappen:
"Yep, we did (speak).
"Honestly, I don’t think he needed to apologise. Some of the things I said in the pen after the race were more just because I was frustrated at the time, a lot of adrenaline, a lot of emotions and I probably said some things I didn’t necessarily believe in, especially later on in the week.
"It was tough. It was a pretty pathetic incident in terms of what ended both our races. It wasn’t like a hit, it wasn’t like an obvious bit of contact. It was probably one of the smallest bits of contact you could have, but with a pretty terrible consequence for both of us, especially for myself.
"He doesn’t need to. I don’t expect an apology from him. I don’t think he should apologise. I thought it was, as reviewed, good racing, at times maybe very close to the edge, but like I said we’ve spoken about it and we’re both happy to go racing again."
Russell: Drivers don't have to race Max differently
Mercedes' George Russell, the eventual race winner in Austria, on whether drivers have to race differently when wheel-to-wheel with Max Verstappen:
"I don’t think so, to be honest.
"You know Max is one of the best, is a hard racer and will push the rules to the limit as all of the top drivers do.
"We all know what the rules are, what the rules are around moving under braking. He probably pushed that slightly behind the limit. As for the incident, as Lando said, it was a very small thing with big consequences and part of racing.
"So short answer is 'no'."
deadslow said:
comments from the British GP:
Norris: Max doesn't need to apologise
Lando Norris further reflects on his collision with Max Verstappen:
"Yep, we did (speak).
"Honestly, I don’t think he needed to apologise. Some of the things I said in the pen after the race were more just because I was frustrated at the time, a lot of adrenaline, a lot of emotions and I probably said some things I didn’t necessarily believe in, especially later on in the week.
"It was tough. It was a pretty pathetic incident in terms of what ended both our races. It wasn’t like a hit, it wasn’t like an obvious bit of contact. It was probably one of the smallest bits of contact you could have, but with a pretty terrible consequence for both of us, especially for myself.
"He doesn’t need to. I don’t expect an apology from him. I don’t think he should apologise. I thought it was, as reviewed, good racing, at times maybe very close to the edge, but like I said we’ve spoken about it and we’re both happy to go racing again."
Russell: Drivers don't have to race Max differently
Mercedes' George Russell, the eventual race winner in Austria, on whether drivers have to race differently when wheel-to-wheel with Max Verstappen:
"I don’t think so, to be honest.
"You know Max is one of the best, is a hard racer and will push the rules to the limit as all of the top drivers do.
"We all know what the rules are, what the rules are around moving under braking. He probably pushed that slightly behind the limit. As for the incident, as Lando said, it was a very small thing with big consequences and part of racing.
"So short answer is 'no'."
This will satisfy the snowflakesNorris: Max doesn't need to apologise
Lando Norris further reflects on his collision with Max Verstappen:
"Yep, we did (speak).
"Honestly, I don’t think he needed to apologise. Some of the things I said in the pen after the race were more just because I was frustrated at the time, a lot of adrenaline, a lot of emotions and I probably said some things I didn’t necessarily believe in, especially later on in the week.
"It was tough. It was a pretty pathetic incident in terms of what ended both our races. It wasn’t like a hit, it wasn’t like an obvious bit of contact. It was probably one of the smallest bits of contact you could have, but with a pretty terrible consequence for both of us, especially for myself.
"He doesn’t need to. I don’t expect an apology from him. I don’t think he should apologise. I thought it was, as reviewed, good racing, at times maybe very close to the edge, but like I said we’ve spoken about it and we’re both happy to go racing again."
Russell: Drivers don't have to race Max differently
Mercedes' George Russell, the eventual race winner in Austria, on whether drivers have to race differently when wheel-to-wheel with Max Verstappen:
"I don’t think so, to be honest.
"You know Max is one of the best, is a hard racer and will push the rules to the limit as all of the top drivers do.
"We all know what the rules are, what the rules are around moving under braking. He probably pushed that slightly behind the limit. As for the incident, as Lando said, it was a very small thing with big consequences and part of racing.
"So short answer is 'no'."
deadslow said:
comments from the British GP:
Norris: Max doesn't need to apologise
Lando Norris further reflects on his collision with Max Verstappen:
"Yep, we did (speak).
"Honestly, I don’t think he needed to apologise. Some of the things I said in the pen after the race were more just because I was frustrated at the time, a lot of adrenaline, a lot of emotions and I probably said some things I didn’t necessarily believe in, especially later on in the week.
"It was tough. It was a pretty pathetic incident in terms of what ended both our races. It wasn’t like a hit, it wasn’t like an obvious bit of contact. It was probably one of the smallest bits of contact you could have, but with a pretty terrible consequence for both of us, especially for myself.
"He doesn’t need to. I don’t expect an apology from him. I don’t think he should apologise. I thought it was, as reviewed, good racing, at times maybe very close to the edge, but like I said we’ve spoken about it and we’re both happy to go racing again."
Russell: Drivers don't have to race Max differently
Mercedes' George Russell, the eventual race winner in Austria, on whether drivers have to race differently when wheel-to-wheel with Max Verstappen:
"I don’t think so, to be honest.
"You know Max is one of the best, is a hard racer and will push the rules to the limit as all of the top drivers do.
"We all know what the rules are, what the rules are around moving under braking. He probably pushed that slightly behind the limit. As for the incident, as Lando said, it was a very small thing with big consequences and part of racing.
"So short answer is 'no'."
It's encouraging to hear this, let's hope that we get some great racing over the next events without the kind of contact we saw last week. Norris: Max doesn't need to apologise
Lando Norris further reflects on his collision with Max Verstappen:
"Yep, we did (speak).
"Honestly, I don’t think he needed to apologise. Some of the things I said in the pen after the race were more just because I was frustrated at the time, a lot of adrenaline, a lot of emotions and I probably said some things I didn’t necessarily believe in, especially later on in the week.
"It was tough. It was a pretty pathetic incident in terms of what ended both our races. It wasn’t like a hit, it wasn’t like an obvious bit of contact. It was probably one of the smallest bits of contact you could have, but with a pretty terrible consequence for both of us, especially for myself.
"He doesn’t need to. I don’t expect an apology from him. I don’t think he should apologise. I thought it was, as reviewed, good racing, at times maybe very close to the edge, but like I said we’ve spoken about it and we’re both happy to go racing again."
Russell: Drivers don't have to race Max differently
Mercedes' George Russell, the eventual race winner in Austria, on whether drivers have to race differently when wheel-to-wheel with Max Verstappen:
"I don’t think so, to be honest.
"You know Max is one of the best, is a hard racer and will push the rules to the limit as all of the top drivers do.
"We all know what the rules are, what the rules are around moving under braking. He probably pushed that slightly behind the limit. As for the incident, as Lando said, it was a very small thing with big consequences and part of racing.
"So short answer is 'no'."
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