Max Verstappen
Discussion
TheDeuce said:
You come over a bit simple with that post.
This thread is littered with people acknowledging that it's exciting, but there is a limit.
On the penalty point, the main point being made by others is that often he goes too far and doesn't get a penalty - did you somehow miss that?
I can't help but think that in you defence of Max you're blinded by the common sense that others are speaking. We want him to race hard and be uncompromising!! But within the rules, and to be penalised each time he breaks those rules. If that doesn't happen the sport is broken - and all Max's triumphs are watered down as they will forever be fouled by controversy.
You want Max to be exciting and great. We want him to play by the rules and receive even treatment, so that his results make him even greater. The rest of us want Max to do better than you seem to want him to do.
He got a penalty and it was justified. This thread is littered with people acknowledging that it's exciting, but there is a limit.
On the penalty point, the main point being made by others is that often he goes too far and doesn't get a penalty - did you somehow miss that?
I can't help but think that in you defence of Max you're blinded by the common sense that others are speaking. We want him to race hard and be uncompromising!! But within the rules, and to be penalised each time he breaks those rules. If that doesn't happen the sport is broken - and all Max's triumphs are watered down as they will forever be fouled by controversy.
You want Max to be exciting and great. We want him to play by the rules and receive even treatment, so that his results make him even greater. The rest of us want Max to do better than you seem to want him to do.
The 'moving under braking' was deemed to not be erratic or dangerous enough to justify a penalty, even Herbert said that.
It's a difference of opinion, but the opinion on here that seems to vary between 'Max should've got multiple penalties' to 'he deserved a DSQ' is very much not the majority opinion. Like I said, this place is somewhat of an echo chamber with a feedback loop resulting in most of you radicalising each other
As I've said before, an amount of moving under braking is part of F1, Sainz does it, Ocon does it, Charles does it, hell even Lewis did it pretty egregiously against Max at COTA in 22. You can't not penalise all those then try to apply different standards to Max just because you don't like him.
honda_exige said:
He got a penalty and it was justified.
The 'moving under braking' was deemed to not be erratic or dangerous enough to justify a penalty, even Herbert said that.
It's a difference of opinion, but the opinion on here that seems to vary between 'Max should've got multiple penalties' to 'he deserved a DSQ' is very much not the majority opinion. Like I said, this place is somewhat of an echo chamber with a feedback loop resulting in most of you radicalising each other
As I've said before, an amount of moving under braking is part of F1, Sainz does it, Ocon does it, Charles does it, hell even Lewis did it pretty egregiously against Max at COTA in 22. You can't not penalise all those then try to apply different standards to Max just because you don't like him.
Take that to the extreme though, why does moving under braking rule allow for a judgement on whether it was erratic enough but something like track limits is absolute. E.g you could have said Piastris track limits wasn’t bad enough or Lewis going over the pit line wasn’t intentional. The 'moving under braking' was deemed to not be erratic or dangerous enough to justify a penalty, even Herbert said that.
It's a difference of opinion, but the opinion on here that seems to vary between 'Max should've got multiple penalties' to 'he deserved a DSQ' is very much not the majority opinion. Like I said, this place is somewhat of an echo chamber with a feedback loop resulting in most of you radicalising each other
As I've said before, an amount of moving under braking is part of F1, Sainz does it, Ocon does it, Charles does it, hell even Lewis did it pretty egregiously against Max at COTA in 22. You can't not penalise all those then try to apply different standards to Max just because you don't like him.
TheDeuce said:
honda_exige said:
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
honda_exige said:
Another good take by Jenson:
'he shouldn't (have had a bigger penalty)'
'when he braked he slightly went to the left, sometimes that happens..'
'Lando also could've moved to the left, there was a lot more circuit to go'
'Exactly the same thing happened in 2023... Carlos moved to the left and Max moved with him and they don't make contact... it's hard racing'
I await to be told Button is employed by Horner, is engaged to Max' mum or some other random reason his viewpoint should be discounted.
https://youtu.be/rExPyQ_1eJc?si=PC2XdKd_0BolxAlp
You really are desperate to defend your boy this time aren't you. Must hurt to realise he hasn't matured as a racer and is still incapable of a good wheel to wheel race with an opponent without running him off the track then whinging like a baby. 'he shouldn't (have had a bigger penalty)'
'when he braked he slightly went to the left, sometimes that happens..'
'Lando also could've moved to the left, there was a lot more circuit to go'
'Exactly the same thing happened in 2023... Carlos moved to the left and Max moved with him and they don't make contact... it's hard racing'
I await to be told Button is employed by Horner, is engaged to Max' mum or some other random reason his viewpoint should be discounted.
https://youtu.be/rExPyQ_1eJc?si=PC2XdKd_0BolxAlp
Better get used to it. The other teams have caught up with Redbull and Max will be put under more and more pressure in the next few races. Expect to see him throwing his toys out of the pram on a regular basis. Followed swiftly by the fanbois desperate to defend him on here. I'm surprised you haven't deployed the "buuuuut Leeeewwwwiiiiissssss" defence yet.
It really is laughable.
If he goes to far - give him a penalty, all good.
You (and others) are acting like he shot your mum.
I hope McLaren continue to push, 2025 is looking like it might be peak F1. Beautiful driving, occasional dirty driving, all of it makes the rich tapestry of F1.
Lando pushing Max onto the grass in Spain - that was dirty too. Does it matter? Course not, great to see Lando finally not rolling over and just letting people come past.
You guys all claim to hate it but in reality it's just made you all even more anticipatory of Silverstone. Max is Box Office, simple as that. F1 is entertainment.
This thread is littered with people acknowledging that it's exciting, but there is a limit.
On the penalty point, the main point being made by others is that often he goes too far and doesn't get a penalty - did you somehow miss that?
I can't help but think that in you defence of Max you're blinded by the common sense that others are speaking. We want him to race hard and be uncompromising!! But within the rules, and to be penalised each time he breaks those rules. If that doesn't happen the sport is broken - and all Max's triumphs are watered down as they will forever be fouled by controversy.
You want Max to be exciting and great. We want him to play by the rules and receive even treatment, so that his results make him even greater. The rest of us want Max to do better than you seem to want him to do.
Hard racing is exciting, even a bit of pushing and shoving in the right circumstances is no bad thing and I wish Max could do that because I agree that it would make for good viewing.
However all Max can do is drive into people to force them off the road and if I wanted to see that I would go to my local demolition derby.
I do no doubt that max has the capability to be that driver, his skill is undeniable but he has been taught by the FIA, Red Bull and his management team that he does not have to be that driver.
Alex Kalinauckas doesn't pull any punches whatsoever in his opinion piece in this weeks Autosport!
Refers back to the 2021 Saudi Grand Prix and Max's actions as the 'Race of Disgrace'. Suffice to say the rest of the article rather damning of Max and the way the sport has handled his many transgressions.
Regards Mike
For me what's more galling is that he extended his championship lead.... so the consequences of any action that was taken about him repeatedly flaunting the rule made for him, were moot.
Whether he's grown or changed, I don't know, but this on track behaviour feels to me exactly like his treatment of LH back when RB and Mercedes converged performance wise, I'm no massive fan of LH btw, I'm no massive fan of any of the drivers in question here.
But rules is rules.
Track limits = 5 seconds
Gaining advantage, forcing off track, causing collision.... each of these requires similar if not more - something that is felt not just shrugged at.
As for the rights and wrongs of the Austrian race. Feels to me the majority view is clear. MV largely races un-challenged but when he is, he has no craft/class.
Whether he's grown or changed, I don't know, but this on track behaviour feels to me exactly like his treatment of LH back when RB and Mercedes converged performance wise, I'm no massive fan of LH btw, I'm no massive fan of any of the drivers in question here.
But rules is rules.
Track limits = 5 seconds
Gaining advantage, forcing off track, causing collision.... each of these requires similar if not more - something that is felt not just shrugged at.
As for the rights and wrongs of the Austrian race. Feels to me the majority view is clear. MV largely races un-challenged but when he is, he has no craft/class.
honda_exige said:
Part of his appeal is that he won't just roll over, he takes things to the absolute limit and occasionally beyond.
If he goes to far - give him a penalty, all good.
You (and others) are acting like he shot your mum.
I hope McLaren continue to push, 2025 is looking like it might be peak F1. Beautiful driving, occasional dirty driving, all of it makes the rich tapestry of F1.
Lando pushing Max onto the grass in Spain - that was dirty too. Does it matter? Course not, great to see Lando finally not rolling over and just letting people come past.
You guys all claim to hate it but in reality it's just made you all even more anticipatory of Silverstone. Max is Box Office, simple as that. F1 is entertainment.
Mate there is no point arguing with these so blinded by their hatred for Max. It's a total waste of time.If he goes to far - give him a penalty, all good.
You (and others) are acting like he shot your mum.
I hope McLaren continue to push, 2025 is looking like it might be peak F1. Beautiful driving, occasional dirty driving, all of it makes the rich tapestry of F1.
Lando pushing Max onto the grass in Spain - that was dirty too. Does it matter? Course not, great to see Lando finally not rolling over and just letting people come past.
You guys all claim to hate it but in reality it's just made you all even more anticipatory of Silverstone. Max is Box Office, simple as that. F1 is entertainment.
See their total silence on Norris running Max off track in Spain lol. Not a peep!
Teatowell said:
Take that to the extreme though, why does moving under braking rule allow for a judgement on whether it was erratic enough but something like track limits is absolute. E.g you could have said Piastris track limits wasn’t bad enough or Lewis going over the pit line wasn’t intentional.
Track limits infringements are judgements of fact, like jumped starts, and are objective. Erratic driving is subjective, but this is why you have stewards (hopefully) with experience of racing to interpret.I think it is too easy to blame the stewards when the real problem is the relationship between the commercial entities that own F1 and the FIA who govern it. Precious little of what goes at this level ever comes out.
Bas Jaski said:
honda_exige said:
Part of his appeal is that he won't just roll over, he takes things to the absolute limit and occasionally beyond.
If he goes to far - give him a penalty, all good.
You (and others) are acting like he shot your mum.
I hope McLaren continue to push, 2025 is looking like it might be peak F1. Beautiful driving, occasional dirty driving, all of it makes the rich tapestry of F1.
Lando pushing Max onto the grass in Spain - that was dirty too. Does it matter? Course not, great to see Lando finally not rolling over and just letting people come past.
You guys all claim to hate it but in reality it's just made you all even more anticipatory of Silverstone. Max is Box Office, simple as that. F1 is entertainment.
Mate there is no point arguing with these so blinded by their hatred for Max. It's a total waste of time.If he goes to far - give him a penalty, all good.
You (and others) are acting like he shot your mum.
I hope McLaren continue to push, 2025 is looking like it might be peak F1. Beautiful driving, occasional dirty driving, all of it makes the rich tapestry of F1.
Lando pushing Max onto the grass in Spain - that was dirty too. Does it matter? Course not, great to see Lando finally not rolling over and just letting people come past.
You guys all claim to hate it but in reality it's just made you all even more anticipatory of Silverstone. Max is Box Office, simple as that. F1 is entertainment.
See their total silence on Norris running Max off track in Spain lol. Not a peep!
you mean the one at the start where Verstappen touched the grass, having had the choice to back out of an overtake, but didn't...honda_exige said:
If he goes to far - give him a penalty, all good.
honda_exige said:
Max is Box Office, simple as that. F1 is entertainment.
'all good' is deterring drivers from moving in the braking zone ...because some of us remember & know why it's so dangerous- not to the drivers per se these days, but everyone else in those areas such as spectators & marshals- so it's very good claiming its great 'box office' (although i'd argue that had they not collided it would have continued to be even more 'box office' see Villeneuve & Arnoux) right up until the point a wheel un-tethers & goes bouncing into the crowdhonda_exige said:
The 'moving under braking' was deemed to not be erratic or dangerous enough to justify a penalty, even Herbert said that.
again, this is not 'just' the rule. it also includes 'any abnormal change of direction' ...unless you're arguing that Max does it so often that it's not abnormal anymore- not sure stewards take that view thoughas for others doing it? ...not a great defence tbh
Bas Jaski said:
Mate there is no point arguing with these so blinded by their hatred for Max. It's a total waste of time.
See their total silence on Norris running Max off track in Spain lol. Not a peep!
everyone knows that the start of a race is little bit different (for reasons which should be obvious) ...but yeah, if Lando dicks about crowding on the straights or moving in the braking zones, then yeah he can expect the same level of criticism ...but the problem isn't that a driver does it once or twice in a career, the problem is when a driver seems to do it more than that & it seems to be part of their DNASee their total silence on Norris running Max off track in Spain lol. Not a peep!
anonymous_user said:
Bas Jaski said:
Mate there is no point arguing with these so blinded by their hatred for Max. It's a total waste of time.
See their total silence on Norris running Max off track in Spain lol. Not a peep!
everyone knows that the start of a race is little bit different (for reasons which should be obvious) ...but yeah, if Lando dicks about crowding on the straights or moving in the braking zones, then yeah he can expect the same level of criticism ...but the problem isn't that a driver does it once or twice in a career, the problem is when a driver seems to do it more than that & it seems to be part of their DNASee their total silence on Norris running Max off track in Spain lol. Not a peep!
It's MAx's MO
It's exceptions to the rule for Lando (in this instance)
As I have said before...
gmaz said:
Has any other driver had a number of rules introduced specifically to curb their behaviour?
1. Changing line under braking
2. Being alongside the car in front, during safety car
3. Overtaking in the pitlane
Seems like the rule book needs to have a "Max's rules" section.
I wonder what the next "Max" rule to be introduced will be?1. Changing line under braking
2. Being alongside the car in front, during safety car
3. Overtaking in the pitlane
Seems like the rule book needs to have a "Max's rules" section.
MarkwG said:
you mean the one at the start where Verstappen touched the grass, having had the choice to back out of an overtake, but didn't...Oh wait! Can't do that because then that means giving in to Max...
FWIW I believe the penalty Max received was on point. I believe the FIA should've acted the first time he moved and given him a black and white flag for it immediately.
I also believe Norris could've used his brain more and do what Max did when Max was in Norris' position last year, and go an inch wider (still well within track limits) and use it as an opportunity to overtake.
People have gotten WAY to excited about this move. Really quite sad to be honest. Reading through the Monza 23 thread is quite amusing.
Bas Jaski said:
Mate there is no point arguing with these so blinded by their hatred for Max. It's a total waste of time.
It's nothing to do with 'hatred'. None of the problems are personal, there are no references here to, for example, Max's looks or clothing. The issues are entirely down to his behaviour.Your comment is an example of why I quit Twitter yesterday, that's the kind of thing seen there all the time.
BTW, quitting Twitter is great, I feel better already. I have even started a thread about it...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Roofless Toothless said:
Track limits infringements are judgements of fact, like jumped starts, and are objective. Erratic driving is subjective, but this is why you have stewards (hopefully) with experience of racing to interpret.
I think it is too easy to blame the stewards when the real problem is the relationship between the commercial entities that own F1 and the FIA who govern it. Precious little of what goes at this level ever comes out.
To be clear though, the rule is an absolute. No moving change of direction in the braking zone. So why the judgement. I think it is too easy to blame the stewards when the real problem is the relationship between the commercial entities that own F1 and the FIA who govern it. Precious little of what goes at this level ever comes out.
simon_harris said:
this is a great post and really highlighhts the issue not only with Max but alos with the rabid Max can do no wrong muppets in general.
Hard racing is exciting, even a bit of pushing and shoving in the right circumstances is no bad thing and I wish Max could do that because I agree that it would make for good viewing.
However all Max can do is drive into people to force them off the road and if I wanted to see that I would go to my local demolition derby.
I do no doubt that max has the capability to be that driver, his skill is undeniable but he has been taught by the FIA, Red Bull and his management team that he does not have to be that driver.
Perfectly summarises it IMOHard racing is exciting, even a bit of pushing and shoving in the right circumstances is no bad thing and I wish Max could do that because I agree that it would make for good viewing.
However all Max can do is drive into people to force them off the road and if I wanted to see that I would go to my local demolition derby.
I do no doubt that max has the capability to be that driver, his skill is undeniable but he has been taught by the FIA, Red Bull and his management team that he does not have to be that driver.
Roofless Toothless said:
Track limits infringements are judgements of fact, like jumped starts, and are objective. Erratic driving is subjective, but this is why you have stewards (hopefully) with experience of racing to interpret.
I think it is too easy to blame the stewards when the real problem is the relationship between the commercial entities that own F1 and the FIA who govern it. Precious little of what goes at this level ever comes out.
What you're describing is all objective. It's not asking "did the driver believe it's ok", rather "was the driving ok by the standards of the rules". The stewards apply the driving to the rules and decide if it's within or outwith. I think it is too easy to blame the stewards when the real problem is the relationship between the commercial entities that own F1 and the FIA who govern it. Precious little of what goes at this level ever comes out.
We get inconsistency in decisions because the rules aren't sufficiently clear which then opens the stewards to having made their own subjective view.
There have always been whooping great huge inconsistencies in stewarding decisions, I am sure anyone who is not of the DTS fanbase era will recall what FIA once stood for.
What now seems to be apparent is that decisions tend to vary by driver and this was most apparent in '21 not just at Abu Dhabi but throughout the latter part of the year culminating in that travesty.
What now seems to be apparent is that decisions tend to vary by driver and this was most apparent in '21 not just at Abu Dhabi but throughout the latter part of the year culminating in that travesty.
paulguitar said:
rev-erend said:
It's really up to Norris to learn how to respond to his aggressive defensive driving.
It really shouldn't be. Moving in braking zones has always been a massive no-no. It needs to be dealt with.
They just don't enforce them for MaxGassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff