Perez, The Elephant in the Room??

[Dave200]

paulguitar said:

deadslow said:

It clearly IS often enough - he just got re-signed

Pretty low bar, for whatever reason.

I don't get how you can be so definitive. RB have absolutely pots of cash, and could have gone out and probably persuaded all but the top handful of drivers to take Perez's seat. Heck, even Carlos Sainz is kicking around out of contract. But instead they re-signed Perez. So clearly he's doing enough for the people with lots of options at their disposal.

For context, I don't particularly rate Perez, but it seems weird that so many here seem to know better than RB.

[paulguitar]

deadslow said:

paulguitar said:

deadslow said:

paulguitar said:

How does any of this have anything to do with Hamilton? He's miles from being in a position to win or have any bearing on this whatsoever.

it's got nothing at all to do with Hammo. But you know that. Nice deflection.

You just brought him up!

poor chap, confused again!

I certainly did not bring up the subject of Hamilton. He is an irrelevance these days, and certainly in any discussion of RB 2nd driver.

Agreed, and therefore I have absolutely no idea what you're attempting to say here.

I'm off for lunch.

[sandman77]

Dave200 said:

I don't get how you can be so definitive. RB have absolutely pots of cash, and could have gone out and probably persuaded all but the top handful of drivers to take Perez's seat. Heck, even Carlos Sainz is kicking around out of contract. But instead they re-signed Perez. So clearly he's doing enough for the people with lots of options at their disposal.

For context, I don't particularly rate Perez, but it seems weird that so many here seem to know better than RB.

The only driver RB are interested in is Max Verstappen and they will bend over backwards to keep him in the team. I would bet my house on the reason Perez was resigned is because he isn’t going to pose a threat to their no.1 driver. In fact I would be surprised if the verstappens didn’t insist on Perez staying.

[Dave200]

sandman77 said:

Dave200 said:

I don't get how you can be so definitive. RB have absolutely pots of cash, and could have gone out and probably persuaded all but the top handful of drivers to take Perez's seat. Heck, even Carlos Sainz is kicking around out of contract. But instead they re-signed Perez. So clearly he's doing enough for the people with lots of options at their disposal.

For context, I don't particularly rate Perez, but it seems weird that so many here seem to know better than RB.

The only driver RB are interested in is Max Verstappen and they will bend over backwards to keep him in the team. I would bet my house on the reason Perez was resigned is because he isn’t going to pose a threat to their no.1 driver. In fact I would be surprised if the verstappens didn’t insist on Perez staying.

But isn't that exactly what RB want too? They've got a happy lead driver who's going to win a WDC, and a tailgunner who's delivered them 2/2 WCCs. What more could they possibly want?

[WPA]

I think keeping Perez is utter madness but maybe they had no other choice and I doubt they have a queue of people wanting drive in Max's team.

It will be interesting to see if they still feel it is good for the team if he does end up costing them the WCC

[HTP99]

WPA said:

I think keeping Perez is utter madness but maybe they had no other choice and I doubt they have a queue of people wanting drive in Max's team.

It will be interesting to see if they still feel it is good for the team if he does end up costing them the WCC

I tend to agree, I think they went with Perez again as they literally had no one else to go for, no current decent driver would want the gig, anyone from a lower tier would likely put in similar performances and anyone not in F1 currently would be a bit of a gamble.

[deadslow]

HTP99 said:

WPA said:

I think keeping Perez is utter madness but maybe they had no other choice and I doubt they have a queue of people wanting drive in Max's team.

It will be interesting to see if they still feel it is good for the team if he does end up costing them the WCC

I tend to agree, I think they went with Perez again as they literally had no one else to go for, no current decent driver would want the gig, anyone from a lower tier would likely put in similar performances and anyone not in F1 currently would be a bit of a gamble.

strange you don't rate Sainz as a current decent driver

[Leithen]

Jordie Barretts sock said:

Leithen said:

This isn’t about the existing contract, it’s about what the new one contains. Which of course none of us will know unless a clause is activated (Hamilton).

What clause was activated?

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-gave-ha...

[moorx]

deadslow said:

HTP99 said:

WPA said:

I think keeping Perez is utter madness but maybe they had no other choice and I doubt they have a queue of people wanting drive in Max's team.

It will be interesting to see if they still feel it is good for the team if he does end up costing them the WCC

I tend to agree, I think they went with Perez again as they literally had no one else to go for, no current decent driver would want the gig, anyone from a lower tier would likely put in similar performances and anyone not in F1 currently would be a bit of a gamble.

strange you don't rate Sainz as a current decent driver

That's not what he said, though, is it? Sainz perhaps falls into the category of a decent driver who doesn't 'want the gig'. Who can blame him.

Edited by moorx on Thursday 6th June 13:37

[deadslow]

moorx said:

That's not what he said, though, is it? Sainz perhaps falls into the category of a decent driver who doesn't 'want the gig'. Who can blame him.

Edited by moorx on Thursday 6th June 13:37

doubting that very much

https://www.planetf1.com/news/carlos-sainz-red-bul...

[Dave200]

WPA said:

I think keeping Perez is utter madness but maybe they had no other choice and I doubt they have a queue of people wanting drive in Max's team.

It will be interesting to see if they still feel it is good for the team if he does end up costing them the WCC

You doubt they have a queue of drivers wanting to earn 10m quid a year?

[leef44]

TheDeuce said:

patmahe said:

If Red Bull were serious about winning the constructors championship, they would have tried everything to get Sainz in that car. Perez is there because he plays well with Max and is no threat to him. This move could cost them championships and prize money this year and in subsequent years. After his abysmal Monaco display it's hard to justify this move unless there are considerable performance clauses relative to Max that give Red Bull a way out should they need it.

They're obviously not serious about WCC. Maybe they win it, maybe they don't.. if they don't it'll be Perez's fault for sure. Do they care? Probably not - its about $7m difference in prize fund, Perez reportedly carries sponsorship of $40m. The Red Bull brand doesn't have road cars to sell so WCC value is further reduced for them.

They sell fizzy drinks, the best way to do that is to have Max looking like a God, nothing else matters. The subsequent drinks sales attributable to F1 participation alone dwarf the sort of money we're talking about in F1 championship terms.

Max is no doubt happy to have a team mate he leaves for dirt each weekend. The marketing men won't mind Max being made to look unbelievably good either.

I'm sure there are multiple ways they could eject Perez over the next two years should they wish to. But it's not 'hard to justify' why they've maintained the status quo for now. It's actually very easy to make sense of how it's justified.

People just don't like it because it's got nothing to do with racing and everything to do with marketing - but that's the reality, across much of F1.

Thank you for that

That all makes sense. As CEO or CFO, this is a no-brainer and easily sold to the board as the strategic decision.

[llewop]

I think it is too narrow just to look at his performance at Red Bull. As many have said, the difference to Max is huge, so is it that MV is brilliant (maybe), the car is edgy so only brilliance gets the best out of it (maybe) or could there be something else - Marko is somewhat infamous for how he undermines the other driver(s) in the team, so including the B team. He did it in the days of Vettel too, the chosen one is praised and back, the other car(s) mocked and belittled - great for building confidence that you're getting fair treatment in the garage - not!

Anyway: Pre Red Bull: assuming Wiki is accurate....Perez completed 11 seasons, 195 races with a single win and 10 podiums - essentially a solid journeyman not setting the world alight. He got the Red Bull drive on the back of that one win, which was a fluke of SC/VSC and a Merc meltdown, plus the much vaunted Marko driver development programme running dry of talent worthy of the A team as they had all left or been disheartened/dismissed. Without that he would have been out of F1 as the his prior team rebanded to Aston Martin and brought in Vettel.

Perez was probably re-signed as they are in that hole again, don't quite trust Ricardo to be back to consistency and no one else within the RB 'family' is likely to stand up in wake of MV. I suspect the gravitational support of MV within the team was partly why DR left in the first place - even if he matched Max, it would be undermined somehow.

[HTP99]

deadslow said:

HTP99 said:

WPA said:

I think keeping Perez is utter madness but maybe they had no other choice and I doubt they have a queue of people wanting drive in Max's team.

It will be interesting to see if they still feel it is good for the team if he does end up costing them the WCC

I tend to agree, I think they went with Perez again as they literally had no one else to go for, no current decent driver would want the gig, anyone from a lower tier would likely put in similar performances and anyone not in F1 currently would be a bit of a gamble.

strange you don't rate Sainz as a current decent driver

I rate him highly, there is no way the Verstappen's will want him up against Max and there is also bad blood between him and Marko so he likely wasn't even a consideration for the seat, if he even wanted it if offered.

[deadslow]

llewop said:

all good stuff ..................................... I suspect the gravitational support of MV within the team was partly why DR left in the first place - even if he matched Max, it would be undermined somehow.

it is obvious that Danny was never going to develop into a Max beater; he is on the verge of losing his place in F1 altogether.

[Dave200]

deadslow said:

llewop said:

all good stuff ..................................... I suspect the gravitational support of MV within the team was partly why DR left in the first place - even if he matched Max, it would be undermined somehow.

it is obvious that Danny was never going to develop into a Max beater; he is on the verge of losing his place in F1 altogether.

I really like him as a personality, and he's definitely had some good moments, but he's really not kicked on from the initial promise he showed. I don't know that he'd have achieved more if he'd stayed in a faster car, but it just didn't seem to work for him with Max and RB.

[llewop]

Dave200 said:

deadslow said:

llewop said:

all good stuff ..................................... I suspect the gravitational support of MV within the team was partly why DR left in the first place - even if he matched Max, it would be undermined somehow.

it is obvious that Danny was never going to develop into a Max beater; he is on the verge of losing his place in F1 altogether.

I really like him as a personality, and he's definitely had some good moments, but he's really not kicked on from the initial promise he showed. I don't know that he'd have achieved more if he'd stayed in a faster car, but it just didn't seem to work for him with Max and RB.

Part of what I was getting at was even if Max was potentially edging it anyway; the team, especially Marko favoured him so would have pushed DR down... and perhaps motivated him to leave. There was a recent statement from Marko I saw about intra team crashes where he effectively laid the blame at DR rather than (as many said at the time) a racing incident for the Baku crash between DR and MV and similar insinuation about Webber when he'd had a crash with Vettel. My interpretation is that in both cases the Aussies were, in Marko's head, to blame for getting in the way of the golden child. But the SV and MW crash was way more Seb than Mark and Baku was borderline for Max weaving/multiple direction changes. But Marko was apparently content that in Webber's case, he dropped into the passive role and Daniel left the team.

Max is annoyingly brilliant (but also a petulant child), the car has been awesome for a few years, which may or may not continue post Newey. But the team politics also clearly support Max, pushing down the number 2 and damaging their performance - but maybe that is what Red Bull want? A decent, passive, journeyman that has no chance to challenge Max and will, when the stars align, get on the podium or even win. I think it was early in 22 that Perez started well, even suggested he had a chance. Then Jos got sulky, I vaguely recall Marko making some sort of 'know your place....' comment and his performances dried up. (That might be a rose tinted recollection - I won't deny I have a strong distain for Red Bull, for all their 'fun bus' image they try to portray, I think they are also world class at gamesmanship, including being the experts at flexing their wings in ways that appear to pass the static tests. Drifting off topic somewhat ).

[MustangGT]

deadslow said:

well, they must calculate Perez will do enough to bring both championships.

The disappointment of the afficienados is more accurately described as the non-stop whining of Hammo fans. You know it's true.

Methinks it is you, not Paul, that is confused. You brought up Hamilton yesterday(Thursday) at 12:29, nobody else did.

[Dave200]

llewop said:

Dave200 said:

deadslow said:

llewop said:

all good stuff ..................................... I suspect the gravitational support of MV within the team was partly why DR left in the first place - even if he matched Max, it would be undermined somehow.

it is obvious that Danny was never going to develop into a Max beater; he is on the verge of losing his place in F1 altogether.

I really like him as a personality, and he's definitely had some good moments, but he's really not kicked on from the initial promise he showed. I don't know that he'd have achieved more if he'd stayed in a faster car, but it just didn't seem to work for him with Max and RB.

Part of what I was getting at was even if Max was potentially edging it anyway; the team, especially Marko favoured him so would have pushed DR down... and perhaps motivated him to leave. There was a recent statement from Marko I saw about intra team crashes where he effectively laid the blame at DR rather than (as many said at the time) a racing incident for the Baku crash between DR and MV and similar insinuation about Webber when he'd had a crash with Vettel. My interpretation is that in both cases the Aussies were, in Marko's head, to blame for getting in the way of the golden child. But the SV and MW crash was way more Seb than Mark and Baku was borderline for Max weaving/multiple direction changes. But Marko was apparently content that in Webber's case, he dropped into the passive role and Daniel left the team.

Max is annoyingly brilliant (but also a petulant child), the car has been awesome for a few years, which may or may not continue post Newey. But the team politics also clearly support Max, pushing down the number 2 and damaging their performance - but maybe that is what Red Bull want? A decent, passive, journeyman that has no chance to challenge Max and will, when the stars align, get on the podium or even win. I think it was early in 22 that Perez started well, even suggested he had a chance. Then Jos got sulky, I vaguely recall Marko making some sort of 'know your place....' comment and his performances dried up. (That might be a rose tinted recollection - I won't deny I have a strong distain for Red Bull, for all their 'fun bus' image they try to portray, I think they are also world class at gamesmanship, including being the experts at flexing their wings in ways that appear to pass the static tests. Drifting off topic somewhat ).

This "decent passive journeyman" is what almost all F1 champions in recent history have had. Max has had Perez, Hamilton (with the exception of 14 and 16) had very little challenge from his teammates, Webber was miles behind Vettel, Rubens didn't even manage second in Button's WDC year, Lewis has Heiki in his first WDC year, and Alonso and Schumacher weren't really challenged consistently by their teammates before that.

While we might all want two top drivers duking it out in the fastest car, it's just wishful thinking based on the past couple of decades of F1. It just doesn't happen, and the strain that Rosberg/Hamilton years put on the Merc team are the reason why.

Why would RB upset the applecart to appease a few diehard internet fans? They've got their "decent passive journeyman", and he's helped them to 2/2 WCCs in his time there. I can see no good reason why they would change until that stops being the case.

[thegreenhell]

Dave200 said:

...and he's helped them to 2/2 WCCs in his time there.

2/3