Jamie Chadwick - First competitive female driver in F1?
Discussion
Evanivitch said:
Because F1 drivers spending "2 hours fighting G" isn't any more a valid yard stick as being trained for rocket launches or fighter aircraft.
I really don't get your point. All I was stating is that dealing with repeated forces over an extended period is going to be different to dealing with a very high force for a one off, limited time. Which I still think I'd the case.
I think there might be a mental advantage men have over women in what is a dangerous sport.
The male brain is designed to be a risk taker but the female more cautious. That's just my opinion and could well be wide of the mark but F1 cars can be driven by anyone with sufficient training, it's just getting those last tenths that a driver with less regard for their own safety that is the difficult bit.
If she tests and proves fast and has sufficient sponsorship why not. Can't see it though, sadly.
The male brain is designed to be a risk taker but the female more cautious. That's just my opinion and could well be wide of the mark but F1 cars can be driven by anyone with sufficient training, it's just getting those last tenths that a driver with less regard for their own safety that is the difficult bit.
If she tests and proves fast and has sufficient sponsorship why not. Can't see it though, sadly.
thegreenhell said:
While it is a physical sport, it requires a finite level of strength and fitness. Human endurance is not a limiting factor at this level. The performance of the cars is capped at a level that is easily achieved by male drivers, and there's no reason to suggest that a female couldn't also reach the required physical level to race F1 cars for the duration of a Grand Prix.
Hamilton and Verstappen aren't fighting for the championship because they are the fittest and strongest athletes. There's a minimum level of physicality required to compete, and beyond that it's a level playing field for anyone, and it comes down to other driving attributes. Having 39% stronger neck muscles is meaningless if the physically weaker driver's neck is already at the required level. It just means your neck muscles are 39% bigger and heavier than they need to be.
I appreciate what you're saying, and I agree. The problem is that we simply don't know how far the average female racing driver might be below the ideal minimum strength required. subsequently we don't know how bigger challenge it might be to develop and maintain that level of strength.Hamilton and Verstappen aren't fighting for the championship because they are the fittest and strongest athletes. There's a minimum level of physicality required to compete, and beyond that it's a level playing field for anyone, and it comes down to other driving attributes. Having 39% stronger neck muscles is meaningless if the physically weaker driver's neck is already at the required level. It just means your neck muscles are 39% bigger and heavier than they need to be.
There is a lot we don't know. If F1 is really serious about getting a female driver to the grid then it might be a good idea to start by ascertaining exactly what (if any) are the areas where women may be at a disadvantage and to what extent.
It would be fascinating if they were able to run a mule car to be driven back to back by a retired F1 driver and a selection of current top female drivers, along with a single team of sport/physio experts to speak to and monitor each driver, each session and start to work out what the differences are in what each finds challenging. Apart from anything else, such a scheme would be somewhere useful for FW champions to head to for a month or so in order to develop their driving alongside a male driver with a view to going to F3 the following season.
Oilchange said:
I think there might be a mental advantage men have over women in what is a dangerous sport.
The male brain is designed to be a risk taker but the female more cautious. That's just my opinion and could well be wide of the mark but F1 cars can be driven by anyone with sufficient training, it's just getting those last tenths that a driver with less regard for their own safety that is the difficult bit.
If she tests and proves fast and has sufficient sponsorship why not. Can't see it though, sadly.
Given there are women on the front line on military ops, fighter pilots and such like, I’d agree when you say you are well wide of the mark….The male brain is designed to be a risk taker but the female more cautious. That's just my opinion and could well be wide of the mark but F1 cars can be driven by anyone with sufficient training, it's just getting those last tenths that a driver with less regard for their own safety that is the difficult bit.
If she tests and proves fast and has sufficient sponsorship why not. Can't see it though, sadly.
I dont think getting those last tenths is about risk, it’s about skill. Getting in an F1 car and progressing from 5 seconds off the pace to 0.5 seconds off the pace is where the risk is greater. More people will bin a racing car lapping 5 seconds off the pace than 0.5 seconds.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 3rd November 21:19
Well, people were harping on about the physical limitations but I think you can train around this. I was looking at a possible mental limitation. It might not come to pass that a female driver has to be as reckless and put themself in danger as much as someone like Max to get that win...
And I know there are loads of women in the military but it doesn't change the 'generic' differences between the sexes. And I wasn't saying it would hold back the right driver either.
And I know there are loads of women in the military but it doesn't change the 'generic' differences between the sexes. And I wasn't saying it would hold back the right driver either.
pablo said:
In everyday life Men will take more risks, and thus fail more. I agree it’s well documented but the logic and it’s application to motorsport is greatly flawed
Whilst I suspect that currently women are partly disadvantaged due to be being slightly more risk averse (in general, exceptions excepted...), that might only be a disadvantage if trying to race a male driver, like a male driver. But what if a female driver was slightly more risk averse than a male racer, but also more accurate and thus potentially faster over a push lap? They could in many race situations avoid risks altogether and capitalise with pit strategy or dealing with unexpected flags etc. After all, for every stand out time a male driver looks like a hero after taking an outlandish risk, there is another time that he looks like a prat because it didn't work out as intended.I think it's reasonable to accept that women are different to men in some regards, including mentally. But also it's probably a mistake to assume all differences are weaknesses which can't be offset with strengths they can apply to their driving in other ways - perhaps other ways in which they are different to males.
As ever, it's very hard to tell what's what until a woman spends an extended time racing an F1 car against men so that we can see the relative strengths and weaknesses and how they manifest competitively.
TheDeuce said:
thegreenhell said:
While it is a physical sport, it requires a finite level of strength and fitness. Human endurance is not a limiting factor at this level. The performance of the cars is capped at a level that is easily achieved by male drivers, and there's no reason to suggest that a female couldn't also reach the required physical level to race F1 cars for the duration of a Grand Prix.
Hamilton and Verstappen aren't fighting for the championship because they are the fittest and strongest athletes. There's a minimum level of physicality required to compete, and beyond that it's a level playing field for anyone, and it comes down to other driving attributes. Having 39% stronger neck muscles is meaningless if the physically weaker driver's neck is already at the required level. It just means your neck muscles are 39% bigger and heavier than they need to be.
I appreciate what you're saying, and I agree. The problem is that we simply don't know how far the average female racing driver might be below the ideal minimum strength required. subsequently we don't know how bigger challenge it might be to develop and maintain that level of strength.Hamilton and Verstappen aren't fighting for the championship because they are the fittest and strongest athletes. There's a minimum level of physicality required to compete, and beyond that it's a level playing field for anyone, and it comes down to other driving attributes. Having 39% stronger neck muscles is meaningless if the physically weaker driver's neck is already at the required level. It just means your neck muscles are 39% bigger and heavier than they need to be.
There is a lot we don't know. If F1 is really serious about getting a female driver to the grid then it might be a good idea to start by ascertaining exactly what (if any) are the areas where women may be at a disadvantage and to what extent.
It would be fascinating if they were able to run a mule car to be driven back to back by a retired F1 driver and a selection of current top female drivers, along with a single team of sport/physio experts to speak to and monitor each driver, each session and start to work out what the differences are in what each finds challenging. Apart from anything else, such a scheme would be somewhere useful for FW champions to head to for a month or so in order to develop their driving alongside a male driver with a view to going to F3 the following season.
TheDeuce said:
ChemicalChaos said:
No, it just appears to be a European problem because in America there appears to be no such barriers.
- Shirley Muldowney is a 3x Top Fuel dragster champion and the first person of any gender to win 2 then 3 titles.
- Erica Enders went one better and holds 4x Pro Stock championships
- Angelle Sampey is a 3x Pro Stock motorcycle champion, she also holds the mark of 364 round wins in 506 competitive rounds, giving a 71.9% win-per-round ratio and also making her the most successful/ "winningest" female competitor in any Motorsport ever
- Ashley, Brittany and Courtney Force all have successful careers in Top Fuel racing, Ashley being named Rookie of the Year in her first season and Brittany winning the championship in 2017
So what's the difference? Well, watching any coverage of these events, it's simple - they get treated just like A N Other competitor, get on with it and beat the men on an equal footing. No mysogeny or sexism, but equally no fawning, special treatment, making excuses or other assorted simping.
The F1 crowd on both sides of the debate could learn a lot.
(Before anyone says the cars are easier to drive than single seaters..... They pull up to 8G at launch, average 4G over the run, and snap to -3G when the chutes come out. They have 7,000 horsepower which needs to be deployed in an extremely controlled manner which keeping the car in a narrow window of rubbered tarmac all the way down the track)
Top fuelers high g levels are fleeting, that's entirely different to the forces sustained over a race distance in single seaters - especially in F1. Drag racing is also a skill which is not easy to master, but as a physical challenge it's not even worth comparing to F1.- Shirley Muldowney is a 3x Top Fuel dragster champion and the first person of any gender to win 2 then 3 titles.
- Erica Enders went one better and holds 4x Pro Stock championships
- Angelle Sampey is a 3x Pro Stock motorcycle champion, she also holds the mark of 364 round wins in 506 competitive rounds, giving a 71.9% win-per-round ratio and also making her the most successful/ "winningest" female competitor in any Motorsport ever
- Ashley, Brittany and Courtney Force all have successful careers in Top Fuel racing, Ashley being named Rookie of the Year in her first season and Brittany winning the championship in 2017
So what's the difference? Well, watching any coverage of these events, it's simple - they get treated just like A N Other competitor, get on with it and beat the men on an equal footing. No mysogeny or sexism, but equally no fawning, special treatment, making excuses or other assorted simping.
The F1 crowd on both sides of the debate could learn a lot.
(Before anyone says the cars are easier to drive than single seaters..... They pull up to 8G at launch, average 4G over the run, and snap to -3G when the chutes come out. They have 7,000 horsepower which needs to be deployed in an extremely controlled manner which keeping the car in a narrow window of rubbered tarmac all the way down the track)
I'm not sure what lessons you think F1 could learn, looking at the examples you have given. F1 is and always has been open to both sexes and has had female drivers. The door is fully open.
Can you suggest a few specific things that motorsport is doing in America which F1 could be doing to encourage and find sufficiently talented women, but isn't?
Their records are very impressive, but it's about as relevant as comparing the all-time most successful tractor pulling champion to an F1 driver in terms of what's required to be successful.
TheDeuce said:
As ever, it's very hard to tell what's what until a woman spends an extended time racing an F1 car against men so that we can see the relative strengths and weaknesses and how they manifest competitively.
But there is plenty of evidence to show what happens when you put a woman and a man in an equal car in other formulas. Mazepin, a man whose talent has been resoundingly written off, out-performed Chadwick by 50pts when they raced in the Asian F3 championship last season.Chadwick managed 3 podiums (no wins) in that season and finished 4th, where only 8 drivers competed in all races. Nothing about that suggests that she's ready to make the step up to F1.
There are women in single-seat motorsport, being given the chance to compete on that equal footing you're looking for, and there hasn't been a success story for quite some time.
In spite of all that, I'd really like to see more female representation in some of these feeder championships, which is likely to eventually lead to an F1 seat. Formula W is a nice marketing opportunity, but isn't currently looking like a valid pathway to F1.
thegreenhell said:
andyA700 said:
Do you also believe that a woman could train herself to win the Tour de France, or break a men's marathon record (bearing in mind that more than 15,000 men have run faster than the women's marathon record)?
Do you really think that women can overcome all of the physiological differences if they train themselves?
No, of course not, but that's irrelevant to F1. F1 is not a contest of who is the most physical. It's a contest of who is the best driver in an environment that requires a moderate but easily-achieved level of physical endurance.Do you really think that women can overcome all of the physiological differences if they train themselves?
Looking at times when top drivers have dragged themselves out of the car, absolutely drained after a tough race (exacerbated by things like temperature etc.), suggests that it's not that "easy".
C70R said:
TheDeuce said:
As ever, it's very hard to tell what's what until a woman spends an extended time racing an F1 car against men so that we can see the relative strengths and weaknesses and how they manifest competitively.
But there is plenty of evidence to show what happens when you put a woman and a man in an equal car in other formulas. Mazepin, a man whose talent has been resoundingly written off, out-performed Chadwick by 50pts when they raced in the Asian F3 championship last season.Chadwick managed 3 podiums (no wins) in that season and finished 4th, where only 8 drivers competed in all raced. Nothing about that suggests that she's ready to make the step up yet.
There are women in single-seat motorsport, being given the chance to compete on that equal footing you're looking for, and there hasn't been a success story for quite some time.
In spite of all that, I'd really like to see more female representation in some of these feeder championships, which is likely to eventually lead to an F1 seat. Formula W is a nice marketing opportunity, but isn't currently looking like a valid pathway to F1.
TheDeuce said:
C70R said:
TheDeuce said:
As ever, it's very hard to tell what's what until a woman spends an extended time racing an F1 car against men so that we can see the relative strengths and weaknesses and how they manifest competitively.
But there is plenty of evidence to show what happens when you put a woman and a man in an equal car in other formulas. Mazepin, a man whose talent has been resoundingly written off, out-performed Chadwick by 50pts when they raced in the Asian F3 championship last season.Chadwick managed 3 podiums (no wins) in that season and finished 4th, where only 8 drivers competed in all raced. Nothing about that suggests that she's ready to make the step up yet.
There are women in single-seat motorsport, being given the chance to compete on that equal footing you're looking for, and there hasn't been a success story for quite some time.
In spite of all that, I'd really like to see more female representation in some of these feeder championships, which is likely to eventually lead to an F1 seat. Formula W is a nice marketing opportunity, but isn't currently looking like a valid pathway to F1.
You could argue that women might outperform men in F1 cars when they don't in lower formulas, but I think that's a view with not much substance behind it.
I think we've seen most of what we need to see, and on the basis that Chadwick absolutely dominated Formula W this season, there's nobody I can see in the current crop of female drivers who could out-perform Mazepin in F1.
C70R said:
thegreenhell said:
andyA700 said:
Do you also believe that a woman could train herself to win the Tour de France, or break a men's marathon record (bearing in mind that more than 15,000 men have run faster than the women's marathon record)?
Do you really think that women can overcome all of the physiological differences if they train themselves?
No, of course not, but that's irrelevant to F1. F1 is not a contest of who is the most physical. It's a contest of who is the best driver in an environment that requires a moderate but easily-achieved level of physical endurance.Do you really think that women can overcome all of the physiological differences if they train themselves?
Looking at times when top drivers have dragged themselves out of the car, absolutely drained after a tough race (exacerbated by things like temperature etc.), suggests that it's not that "easy".
Then there are the numerous young driver tests, where some scrawny teenagers get their first experience of driving F1 cars, usually putting in competitive lap times over multiple stints, with no ill effects other than a slightly sore neck afterwards.
We never see them exhausted due to the Hurculean effort of wrestling with the enormous forces, or some such nonsense. It just doesn't happen.
C70R said:
TheDeuce said:
C70R said:
TheDeuce said:
As ever, it's very hard to tell what's what until a woman spends an extended time racing an F1 car against men so that we can see the relative strengths and weaknesses and how they manifest competitively.
But there is plenty of evidence to show what happens when you put a woman and a man in an equal car in other formulas. Mazepin, a man whose talent has been resoundingly written off, out-performed Chadwick by 50pts when they raced in the Asian F3 championship last season.Chadwick managed 3 podiums (no wins) in that season and finished 4th, where only 8 drivers competed in all raced. Nothing about that suggests that she's ready to make the step up yet.
There are women in single-seat motorsport, being given the chance to compete on that equal footing you're looking for, and there hasn't been a success story for quite some time.
In spite of all that, I'd really like to see more female representation in some of these feeder championships, which is likely to eventually lead to an F1 seat. Formula W is a nice marketing opportunity, but isn't currently looking like a valid pathway to F1.
You could argue that women might outperform men in F1 cars when they don't in lower formulas, but I think that's a view with not much substance behind it.
I think we've seen most of what we need to see, and on the basis that Chadwick absolutely dominated Formula W this season, there's nobody I can see in the current crop of female drivers who could out-perform Mazepin in F1.
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