Jamie Chadwick - First competitive female driver in F1?
Discussion
hot metal said:
Still waiting for you to name some sports there 
I'm sure motorsport isn't the only sphere of sport where there was never a divide. But you're sort of right in general I'm sure - on the basis most sports have their roots in something fairly ancient when it was men proving themselves, whereas motorsport obviously only goes back as far at the 'motor' which wasn't invented until we were all living rather less hunter-gatherer lives. I also suspect that initially no one felt a requirement to ban women because it simply wasn't a female thing to have any inclination towards racing machines.But whatever the reason, it's pretty awesome that an entire sphere of sport came about and never, in any series I know of, introduced segregation of the sexes. Until Formula W #progress
TheDeuce said:
But whatever the reason, it's pretty awesome that an entire sphere of sport came about and never, in any series I know of, introduced segregation of the sexes. Until Formula W #progress
Nicely put, but there have been other discriminatory awards like the MOBO music ones!Got to pander to minorities these days apparently.
Surely if you have the talent you'll get to where you deserve anyway!
The comparison with ultra wealthy F1 pay drivers is an interesting one but in my opinion not directly comparable. These guys were getting vast, money no object amounts of private tuition and seat time outside of the feeder series to help them along the way. The $500k Jamie has just won is pissing in the ocean compared to that, quite frankly.
You'd need a fairly talented woman with a billionaire family to actually make that into a meaningful comparison with the likes of Mazepin. Of course then, in the eyes of many, she'd still 'only be there because she is wealthy', even if that sledgehammer approach has worked for men for decades.
Pretty much everyone making it any meaningful distance up the ladder has money in the family, but there is a huge leap from that to the financial commitment shown by Stroll, Mazepin, Latifi etc. There are families in BTCC that to the average person are incredibly wealthy, but who would be a long way off funding a drive to F1 level.
And in terms of comparisons heading up the ladder, Alex Albon is a good example, his racing record is all over the place and certainly a long, long way off many other guys who have never made it to F1. Yet he has proved he is quick enough for F1 and has even had an F1 win within his grasp.
You'd need a fairly talented woman with a billionaire family to actually make that into a meaningful comparison with the likes of Mazepin. Of course then, in the eyes of many, she'd still 'only be there because she is wealthy', even if that sledgehammer approach has worked for men for decades.
Pretty much everyone making it any meaningful distance up the ladder has money in the family, but there is a huge leap from that to the financial commitment shown by Stroll, Mazepin, Latifi etc. There are families in BTCC that to the average person are incredibly wealthy, but who would be a long way off funding a drive to F1 level.
And in terms of comparisons heading up the ladder, Alex Albon is a good example, his racing record is all over the place and certainly a long, long way off many other guys who have never made it to F1. Yet he has proved he is quick enough for F1 and has even had an F1 win within his grasp.
Edited by ch37 on Saturday 30th October 06:46
Ok let me name them Captain Pedant.
Equestrianism, that means dressage, show jumping, horse racing, cross country, eventing and anything else related to competing on horses, polo even.
And figure skating, is that not a sport?
Pedantry is a very dull thing on a forum.
Oh and ANY form of motorsport women can complete equally. Bikes cars, on or off road.
There are not actually that many sports where the physical aspect would make men competing against women unfair, maybe stuff like snooker, darts and a few others, and in darts it is obvious women can and do compete with men, but why should they when they can compete for good prize money within their own gender, that is up to the sport to sort out.
Equestrianism, that means dressage, show jumping, horse racing, cross country, eventing and anything else related to competing on horses, polo even.
And figure skating, is that not a sport?
Pedantry is a very dull thing on a forum.
Oh and ANY form of motorsport women can complete equally. Bikes cars, on or off road.
There are not actually that many sports where the physical aspect would make men competing against women unfair, maybe stuff like snooker, darts and a few others, and in darts it is obvious women can and do compete with men, but why should they when they can compete for good prize money within their own gender, that is up to the sport to sort out.
Leithen said:
It’s not about jumping straight into F1, it’s about being introduced to, and experiencing what ultimately you aspire to.
IIRC Jenson Button achieved this in 1998 having only driven Formula Fords.
Not sure how Chadwick has pissed on your chips, but personally I think you should cut a young person with laudable ambitions some slack. There’s a vanishingly small chance she’ll end up in F1, along with any number of her contemporaries regardless of their gender.
I applaud each and every one of them for their ambition and wish them all the luck in the world.
Jenson Button also came into a very different F1 than exists today, both the cars and the drivers have advanced since then. Let's not kid ouselves that Jamie is even slightly on the same level as JB.IIRC Jenson Button achieved this in 1998 having only driven Formula Fords.
Not sure how Chadwick has pissed on your chips, but personally I think you should cut a young person with laudable ambitions some slack. There’s a vanishingly small chance she’ll end up in F1, along with any number of her contemporaries regardless of their gender.
I applaud each and every one of them for their ambition and wish them all the luck in the world.
It's not about slack cutting, it's about treating her equally as we are supposed to. If most were doing that then no one would even be mentioning her name and F1 in the same sentence. How many other drivers from the current Formula Regional grids do you hear about supposedly being ready for and deserving for an F1 seat? None, not even those that have won the championships with the highest talent levels such as Gregoire Saucy, yet Chadwick is for winning the lowest championship at the level, which held only 8 races with easily the weakest grid of them all.
If Jamie was James Chadwick then there is no way he would be getting fawned over as much as she is, especially for being such a middling driver who was given a shot and failed. A male driver would have been confined to the former racing driver category years ago. Just how many chances should Chadwick get exactly? The chances she will get to F1 are miniscule because she quite frankly is nowhere near talented enough to get there, and really isn't good enough to progress in to F3 realistically.
carl_w said:
She is, she's 15 superlicence points closer.
Superlicence points are totally and utterly meaningless when she isn't even in F3 or above, and correct me if I wrong but won't some of those expire shortly anyway (the 3 year limit) meaning that she wouldn't have the required amount any more. Just because she has enough points to theoretically get a testing superlicence doesn't mean she actually will use it though.If she were to get an F1 test it would purely be a PR excercise and not something that was earned, meaningful or that will turn into an actual F1 opportunity. She isn't even the driver at regional F3 level that deserves the opportunity of an F1 test the most, let alone throughout the rest of the ladder.
An F3 test drive would be more keeping with the level she is at, and would actually be useful for her to do as it would give her a chance to experience the next level up from where she is and potentially give the F3 teams chance to see how she would go in the F3 machinery.
TheDeuce said:
It's irrefutable that she's closer now than before, hopefully that will have the effect of pushing her to dig deep to elevate her performance further - lots of talk on this thread about F3 being a big leap... But we shouldn't assume that she's not capable of a big leap. I'm not saying it's likely she'll do well but I'd certainly like to see and find out.
She could avoid F3 and get the final 15 points she needs elsewhere more easily, although she would only get an F1 drive if she took that route if a down and out team literally just signed he for a year for the sake of raising headlines and exciting sponsors etc, and that certainly wouldn't be guaranteed.
I expect if she did go to F3 and managed a solid 'at least average' performance she would have a higher chance than a male driver putting in the same level performance, because like it or not, there is an inherent PR value attached to signing a female F1 driver. It makes her a more attractive proposition.
These new 15 points might also help her to get a leg up in various ways. Williams could give her a drive in the current car now she has the 25 points required to drive in a practice session. They, or another team (Merc as a supplier?) could also give her time in an old car if they were curious about whether or not she could be a suitable F1 talent. I think she's done well enough already to get plenty of healthy attention and might well find that she gets a lot of support in various ways to further her career.
You are placing to much significance on the superlicence points, even with them she is not jumping from below F3 directly to F1. She isn't prepared enough and doesn't have enough points to actually get a full F1 superlicence. She really needs to step up to F3 in order to get the extra points, but just performing well is likely to be a big enough task. She could avoid F3 and get the final 15 points she needs elsewhere more easily, although she would only get an F1 drive if she took that route if a down and out team literally just signed he for a year for the sake of raising headlines and exciting sponsors etc, and that certainly wouldn't be guaranteed.
I expect if she did go to F3 and managed a solid 'at least average' performance she would have a higher chance than a male driver putting in the same level performance, because like it or not, there is an inherent PR value attached to signing a female F1 driver. It makes her a more attractive proposition.
These new 15 points might also help her to get a leg up in various ways. Williams could give her a drive in the current car now she has the 25 points required to drive in a practice session. They, or another team (Merc as a supplier?) could also give her time in an old car if they were curious about whether or not she could be a suitable F1 talent. I think she's done well enough already to get plenty of healthy attention and might well find that she gets a lot of support in various ways to further her career.
While Williams may pathetically chase PR by giving her an unearned test, I can't see them undoing all of their hard work to better the team's performance by putting an her in the car over the more capable drivers available to them. They want to build on the progress they have made and not have a car finishing dead last every race because they rushed a driver through to F1 that is not F1 material. The talk of an W to F1 move is coming from fans not those within the sport.
Jamie Chadwick isn't exactly some supertalent that will easily dominate F3 and F2 to quickly rise through them to F1. There is large elements of British and female bias being applied to her here. Even Lewis Hamilton went via what were GP3 and GP2 at the time, and he is one of the sports greatest ever talents. Chadwick is not another Lewis never mind good enough to do differently to him.
Some posters here have some sexist views if they think it is acceptable to hold Jamie to lower standards and to require less of her in order to progress up the ladder because she is a woman. Her being a woman doesn't mean the comepetition won't be as high for her and rushing her up the ladder undeserved just to suit political idealisms will only end in failure not success.
Have you noticed how a lot of the reasons in your post why she should get chances are for PR reasons and not performance reasons. That alone is reason enough for it not to happen. The PR bubble would burst spectacurlarly when she inevitably turned out to be a massive bust and her performances didn't live up to the hype because she ultimately was nowhere near the level the PR b
ks made her out to be.TheDeuce said:
You're right about FW, although for all we know it could have a positive effect on the number of female racers in the pool in the longer term future..
You're also probably right about Jamie... But probably shouldn't assume she can't step up. Statistically is seems hugely unlikely, but might as well wait and see, give her a chance.
Although if she doesn't go for F3 next season I'll pretty much write her off there and then as a racer.
This supposed future effect is nothing more than wishful thinking and a massive assumption. It's a case of people saying it is true because they desperately want it to be true rather than it actually being true. Humans really aren't that simple.You're also probably right about Jamie... But probably shouldn't assume she can't step up. Statistically is seems hugely unlikely, but might as well wait and see, give her a chance.
Although if she doesn't go for F3 next season I'll pretty much write her off there and then as a racer.
F3 certainly is the realistic next step. The problem her Jamie is while she has been languishing at the same level for a number of years her peers progressed and she is starting to run out of time to get the opportunities. The younger generations will be rising up and they will be the fresh talent that people look for. She is already older than most recent F1 debutants were.
ChemicalChaos said:
No, it just appears to be a European problem because in America there appears to be no such barriers.
- Shirley Muldowney is a 3x Top Fuel dragster champion and the first person of any gender to win 2 then 3 titles.
- Erica Enders went one better and holds 4x Pro Stock championships
- Angelle Sampey is a 3x Pro Stock motorcycle champion, she also holds the mark of 364 round wins in 506 competitive rounds, giving a 71.9% win-per-round ratio and also making her the most successful/ "winningest" female competitor in any Motorsport ever
- Ashley, Brittany and Courtney Force all have successful careers in Top Fuel racing, Ashley being named Rookie of the Year in her first season and Brittany winning the championship in 2017
So what's the difference? Well, watching any coverage of these events, it's simple - they get treated just like A N Other competitor, get on with it and beat the men on an equal footing. No mysogeny or sexism, but equally no fawning, special treatment, making excuses or other assorted simping.
The F1 crowd on both sides of the debate could learn a lot.
(Before anyone says the cars are easier to drive than single seaters..... They pull up to 8G at launch, average 4G over the run, and snap to -3G when the chutes come out. They have 7,000 horsepower which needs to be deployed in an extremely controlled manner which keeping the car in a narrow window of rubbered tarmac all the way down the track)
I'm not sure I would put drag racing lunatics (I mean that effectionately, they're just completely bonkers for doing it) into the same category as circuit racing though. They are very different styles of motorsport with very different levels of ability required to compete. Driving a car at high speeds around a circuit for long lengths of time require a different skillset from blasting down a drag strip for only seconds at a time.- Shirley Muldowney is a 3x Top Fuel dragster champion and the first person of any gender to win 2 then 3 titles.
- Erica Enders went one better and holds 4x Pro Stock championships
- Angelle Sampey is a 3x Pro Stock motorcycle champion, she also holds the mark of 364 round wins in 506 competitive rounds, giving a 71.9% win-per-round ratio and also making her the most successful/ "winningest" female competitor in any Motorsport ever
- Ashley, Brittany and Courtney Force all have successful careers in Top Fuel racing, Ashley being named Rookie of the Year in her first season and Brittany winning the championship in 2017
So what's the difference? Well, watching any coverage of these events, it's simple - they get treated just like A N Other competitor, get on with it and beat the men on an equal footing. No mysogeny or sexism, but equally no fawning, special treatment, making excuses or other assorted simping.
The F1 crowd on both sides of the debate could learn a lot.
(Before anyone says the cars are easier to drive than single seaters..... They pull up to 8G at launch, average 4G over the run, and snap to -3G when the chutes come out. They have 7,000 horsepower which needs to be deployed in an extremely controlled manner which keeping the car in a narrow window of rubbered tarmac all the way down the track)
thegreenhell said:
She's already raced in plenty of F3 cars, and been thoroughly beaten.
This is where it is important to remember the distinction between FIA F3 (the new F3) and Formula Regional/Regional F3 (the old F3), following the 2019 changes that saw the creation of the FIA F3 and the FIA bringing in it's global pathway to F1. This set out FIA F3 as the feeder to F2 with what previously was F3 level series becoming Formula Regional/Regional F3 level series that act as a step between F4 and FIA F3.
She has plenty of experience in Formula Regional/Regional F3 level cars as you say but none in FIA F3. FIA F3 is also a step up from that level now.
Leithen said:
Really hope she gets an F1 test and F3 drive.
So do I, it will a big reality slap to the face for a lot of people. They will be forced to accept reality instead of the romantic notion they envisage.I assume the Force sisters are daughters of John Force, their path to the top must have been fairly stress-free… and I totally understand that you can’t blame them for who their father is, but let’s face it, if you wanted to be a drag racer, having a father who is 14 time champion doesn’t hurt.
ch37 said:
And in terms of comparisons heading up the ladder, Alex Albon is a good example, his racing record is all over the place and certainly a long, long way off many other guys who have never made it to F1. Yet he has proved he is quick enough for F1 and has even had an F1 win within his grasp.
There's been plenty of successful F1 drivers whose pre-F1 careers weren't that good. If you'd followed Schummacher in his early days, you'd have struggled to see the future him - indeed, many felt Frentzen was the better bet at the time. Conversely, there are many who blitzed the lower formulae but floundered in F1 - Jan Mangussen springs to mind.
The people who put these guys in their F1 cars clearly see something in them that others don't - and it's not always their bank balance.
If you listen to pods around Magnussen he simply couldn't be arsed to keep fit or anything, Stewart grew very weary of him very quickly he was very lazy. It happens in all motorsport, Jarier, Anthony Gobert, so many huge talents who did the bare minimum to get to the top, and then just gave up or did the absolute least to carry on.
I don't doubt any of the top girls in this series are decent race drivers, but I do doubt they are getting anywhere in this series, it is a stupid idea, always was and came off many things at the time, none of which were about talent, all about equality. Very different.
In my opinion women already get enough exposure in motorsport you only have to look at the countless failed attempts over many years to get women into f1 to realise it simply is not that easy, women like Jorda, Wolff, Amati did women in racing no favours at all, and that has tainted the viewpoint. Most women in racing get far more publicity because of that fact than men and often are fairly hopeless. Not always but a fair bit at international level say. National level there are countless women more than talented enough, everywhere.
I am convinced that one day a lady will be good enough, but there are none around right now sadly.
I don't doubt any of the top girls in this series are decent race drivers, but I do doubt they are getting anywhere in this series, it is a stupid idea, always was and came off many things at the time, none of which were about talent, all about equality. Very different.
In my opinion women already get enough exposure in motorsport you only have to look at the countless failed attempts over many years to get women into f1 to realise it simply is not that easy, women like Jorda, Wolff, Amati did women in racing no favours at all, and that has tainted the viewpoint. Most women in racing get far more publicity because of that fact than men and often are fairly hopeless. Not always but a fair bit at international level say. National level there are countless women more than talented enough, everywhere.
I am convinced that one day a lady will be good enough, but there are none around right now sadly.
LukeBrown66 said:
Ok let me name them Captain Pedant.
Equestrianism, that means dressage, show jumping, horse racing, cross country, eventing and anything else related to competing on horses, polo even.
And figure skating, is that not a sport?
Pedantry is a very dull thing on a forum.
Oh and ANY form of motorsport women can complete equally. Bikes cars, on or off road.
There are not actually that many sports where the physical aspect would make men competing against women unfair, maybe stuff like snooker, darts and a few others, and in darts it is obvious women can and do compete with men, but why should they when they can compete for good prize money within their own gender, that is up to the sport to sort out.
Equestrianism, that means dressage, show jumping, horse racing, cross country, eventing and anything else related to competing on horses, polo even.
And figure skating, is that not a sport?
Pedantry is a very dull thing on a forum.
Oh and ANY form of motorsport women can complete equally. Bikes cars, on or off road.
There are not actually that many sports where the physical aspect would make men competing against women unfair, maybe stuff like snooker, darts and a few others, and in darts it is obvious women can and do compete with men, but why should they when they can compete for good prize money within their own gender, that is up to the sport to sort out.
doesn`t understand humour, or the meaning of the word pedantry , however ,if you stick around here long enough you will find plenty of it.Edited by hot metal on Sunday 31st October 18:55
The reason why women do not progress to the highest level in motorsport, is very simple. It is the same reason why women cannot run faster than Usain Bolt or ride a bike quicker than Chris Hoy, it is down to speed, strength = power.
Formula 1 puts extraordinary demands on the body in the form of G Force. Formula 1 drivers have to be extremely fit, extremely strong, it really is that simple.
Formula 1 puts extraordinary demands on the body in the form of G Force. Formula 1 drivers have to be extremely fit, extremely strong, it really is that simple.
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