Jamie Chadwick - First competitive female driver in F1?
Discussion
Peacockantony said:
The issue with this mindset is it isn't actually based on any solid evidence that it will work, it is just purely an assumption from those who desperately want it to be true. As with anything that is actually based on reality, in won't work out in the way they naively assume it will because the real world isn't as simple as their simplistic ideals.
Just think about what this mindset is actually saying for a moment. It is saying that girls are so weak minded and easily led that they literally have to be forcefully fed something in order to want to do it. It is saying that girls are unambitious because they don't share the same aspirations and goals as they want them to.
Why are they saying this? Because they have decided that equality will only be achieved by meeting the abritrary figure they have invented, even though none of if f*cking matters. Whether there are many girls involved in racing or not doesn't matter. Surely someone doing what they actually want to do is better than social engineering them into wanting to do what you want them to do in order to satisfy your beliefs.
It's not about trying to make them want to be racing drivers; it's about showing them they can be racing drivers if they want to be. Important distinction.Just think about what this mindset is actually saying for a moment. It is saying that girls are so weak minded and easily led that they literally have to be forcefully fed something in order to want to do it. It is saying that girls are unambitious because they don't share the same aspirations and goals as they want them to.
Why are they saying this? Because they have decided that equality will only be achieved by meeting the abritrary figure they have invented, even though none of if f*cking matters. Whether there are many girls involved in racing or not doesn't matter. Surely someone doing what they actually want to do is better than social engineering them into wanting to do what you want them to do in order to satisfy your beliefs.
If a young girl watches F1 now they might think it looks fun but it's a boy's sport, so they won't even think they can pursue it. If they see other girls racing then it just goes to open their minds further that it is possible for them too. Nobody expects to achieve a 50:50 gender mix, only that nobody should be put off trying or be denied opportunity because of gender. That is equality.
TheDeuce said:
Why did you quote me when you said that? I was just saying I personally liked to see females racing against males - I don't care why they're there and I don't think anyone needs it explaining to them that there are obvious tempting reasons to create that situation..
I didn't mean to insinuate anything, you simply were someone who brought it up.I actually respect your opinion a lot.
Peacockantony said:
In reality it has made no difference to drivers in the series as far down the ladder as W Series is, no one was jumping from that low down into F1...
The FIA have literally created a road to F1 programme that sets out the way to F1. No one had an issue with it until some decided Chadwick should just be allowed to skip many series straight to F1, something that far greater talents than her don't even do.
It’s not about jumping straight into F1, it’s about being introduced to, and experiencing what ultimately you aspire to. The FIA have literally created a road to F1 programme that sets out the way to F1. No one had an issue with it until some decided Chadwick should just be allowed to skip many series straight to F1, something that far greater talents than her don't even do.
IIRC Jenson Button achieved this in 1998 having only driven Formula Fords.
Not sure how Chadwick has pissed on your chips, but personally I think you should cut a young person with laudable ambitions some slack. There’s a vanishingly small chance she’ll end up in F1, along with any number of her contemporaries regardless of their gender.
I applaud each and every one of them for their ambition and wish them all the luck in the world.
Peacockantony said:
TheDeuce said:
Why did you quote me when you said that? I was just saying I personally liked to see females racing against males - I don't care why they're there and I don't think anyone needs it explaining to them that there are obvious tempting reasons to create that situation..
I didn't mean to insinuate anything, you simply were someone who brought it up.I actually respect your opinion a lot.
It's an easy subject to have a heavy set of opinions on, and it's very difficult to separate what % of the current W initiative is for PR posturing and what % is actually designed to be effective in some way in order to increase the chances of females entering the higher levels of formula racing. I'm certain there will be genuine desire for both overall.
I'm of the view that FW relies on segregation to fulfil it's goals, which I think is wrong, regardless of whether or not it proves effective. However... logically I do think that if it runs for long enough, it is likely to fulfil it's objective and find at least one reasonably competitive (vs male) female F2 or even F1 driver, who will then go on and inspire even more girls to follow from a young age.
I basically agree with the end goal but will never want to support the fact FW introduced segregation in to a sport that has, since day one, been too interested in racing cars to care if the drivers have a tinkle or a veevee
Had an interesting chat with a young lady driver a week or so ago who currently competes at a fairly high level.
• Not a fan of FW. If you want to compete on a top level in motorsport you need to compete with everyone. Competing with best gives you learning and experience that is not available elsewhere. More importantly it fuels the drive to push yourself to be better.
• To get to the top in motorsport you need to totally dedicate your life to that journey to the top. You give up a lot in life. In some respects women have to be even more extremely dedicated, delaying or not having children at all while their motorsport careers are on the up or at their peak.
Set me thinking about what was said.
In some sports at elite level the very best women train with the very best men, to push harder to be better, if they are not in a sport that segregates. Motorsport doesn't rule on segregation as a matter of course.
Look at the current top two in F1, not married and no kids. Look at what Nico had to do to beat Hamilton, basically partly withdrew from his family life for nearly 12 months to dedicate everything to his goal of winning the WDC.
If being able to beat the rest of the FW grid consistently meant you could, with a year or so more experience, get in the top three in F3 or F2 championship then it truly would be a step towards F1 and add massively to the value of FW.
Despite the talk in public I’m not of the view that the success of FW at this moment in time should be judged on whether or not a woman driver gets on the F1 grid. In my view it’s as much about getting more into motorsport in general to build the pyramid from the bottom up, maybe just maybe encouraging a family with a very talented and determined youngster to set off on the Journey to the top…………..and get there.
One day another exception like Michele Mouton or Danica Patrick will be along to raise the bar, but they are the exceptions. It’s all about the numbers, hundreds of thousands of young boys dream of F1, only a small number make it the difficult and expensive journey. Until participation of young girls is up in numbers you will be relying on the exceptions.
• Not a fan of FW. If you want to compete on a top level in motorsport you need to compete with everyone. Competing with best gives you learning and experience that is not available elsewhere. More importantly it fuels the drive to push yourself to be better.
• To get to the top in motorsport you need to totally dedicate your life to that journey to the top. You give up a lot in life. In some respects women have to be even more extremely dedicated, delaying or not having children at all while their motorsport careers are on the up or at their peak.
Set me thinking about what was said.
In some sports at elite level the very best women train with the very best men, to push harder to be better, if they are not in a sport that segregates. Motorsport doesn't rule on segregation as a matter of course.
Look at the current top two in F1, not married and no kids. Look at what Nico had to do to beat Hamilton, basically partly withdrew from his family life for nearly 12 months to dedicate everything to his goal of winning the WDC.
If being able to beat the rest of the FW grid consistently meant you could, with a year or so more experience, get in the top three in F3 or F2 championship then it truly would be a step towards F1 and add massively to the value of FW.
Despite the talk in public I’m not of the view that the success of FW at this moment in time should be judged on whether or not a woman driver gets on the F1 grid. In my view it’s as much about getting more into motorsport in general to build the pyramid from the bottom up, maybe just maybe encouraging a family with a very talented and determined youngster to set off on the Journey to the top…………..and get there.
One day another exception like Michele Mouton or Danica Patrick will be along to raise the bar, but they are the exceptions. It’s all about the numbers, hundreds of thousands of young boys dream of F1, only a small number make it the difficult and expensive journey. Until participation of young girls is up in numbers you will be relying on the exceptions.
Leithen said:
Hopefully she will get the opportunity to develop her skills fully, and who knows, F1 might ultimately await.
Lombardi was certainly not utterly crap. Bloody quick and fully deserved to be in F1.
Agreed. Iirc Desiree Wilson won a non championship F1 race that actually included quite a few notable male drivers of the time. Lombardi was certainly not utterly crap. Bloody quick and fully deserved to be in F1.
Smollet said:
Agreed. Iirc Desiree Wilson won a non championship F1 race that actually included quite a few notable male drivers of the time.
British 1980 Aurora AFX F1 Championship race at Brands Hatch beating, Norman Dickson, Eliseo Salazar, Giacomo Agostini, Tony Dean, Brian Robinson. Those were the only finishers out of 10 starters, Emilio de Villota, Guy Edwards, Bob Howlings and Geoff Lees retired.FourWheelDrift said:
Smollet said:
Agreed. Iirc Desiree Wilson won a non championship F1 race that actually included quite a few notable male drivers of the time.
British 1980 Aurora AFX F1 Championship race at Brands Hatch beating, Norman Dickson, Eliseo Salazar, Giacomo Agostini, Tony Dean, Brian Robinson. Those were the only finishers out of 10 starters, Emilio de Villota, Guy Edwards, Bob Howlings and Geoff Lees retired.(DNQ’s... But at least she made it)
Edited by Milkyway on Thursday 28th October 12:30
carl_w said:
Peacockantony said:
It's poor reporting, which is to be expected from the BBC on matters like this. In reality she is no closer to F1 than she was a week ago.
She is, she's 15 superlicence points closer.Cold said:
carl_w said:
Peacockantony said:
It's poor reporting, which is to be expected from the BBC on matters like this. In reality she is no closer to F1 than she was a week ago.
She is, she's 15 superlicence points closer.She could avoid F3 and get the final 15 points she needs elsewhere more easily, although she would only get an F1 drive if she took that route if a down and out team literally just signed he for a year for the sake of raising headlines and exciting sponsors etc, and that certainly wouldn't be guaranteed.
I expect if she did go to F3 and managed a solid 'at least average' performance she would have a higher chance than a male driver putting in the same level performance, because like it or not, there is an inherent PR value attached to signing a female F1 driver. It makes her a more attractive proposition.
These new 15 points might also help her to get a leg up in various ways. Williams could give her a drive in the current car now she has the 25 points required to drive in a practice session. They, or another team (Merc as a supplier?) could also give her time in an old car if they were curious about whether or not she could be a suitable F1 talent. I think she's done well enough already to get plenty of healthy attention and might well find that she gets a lot of support in various ways to further her career.
The whole thing is a ruse, always was and always has been.
I understand why it happened, but in reality the only way currently a woman is getting to f1 is sex appeal (marketing in F1 speak) or money, there are no women talented enough to warrant a full time seat.
All FW does is pit women against other women, and it is non aspirational as a result, yes it generates interest but do you not think the Gp2,3 and F3 teams are not a\ware of this and cannot really gauge someone's talent if they do this, it is a pointless exercise in furthering ones talent really.
If someone achieves a GP2 title or goes well in Indycar etc, then fair enough plonk her in an F1 car in testing or a season and see, she will generate immense interest, likely be very well backed and probably help a team out in the process.
But so far there have been NO female drivers in F1 for 40 or more years even slightly worthy of the chance and I cannot see that changing because of FW, if it happens it will be natural and organic, like it was with Mouton, who yes received a lot of help but still had to beat rivals and other men in her car to win rallies, something she did repeatedly in very tricky cars to drive on very tricky events too I kght add.
I understand why it happened, but in reality the only way currently a woman is getting to f1 is sex appeal (marketing in F1 speak) or money, there are no women talented enough to warrant a full time seat.
All FW does is pit women against other women, and it is non aspirational as a result, yes it generates interest but do you not think the Gp2,3 and F3 teams are not a\ware of this and cannot really gauge someone's talent if they do this, it is a pointless exercise in furthering ones talent really.
If someone achieves a GP2 title or goes well in Indycar etc, then fair enough plonk her in an F1 car in testing or a season and see, she will generate immense interest, likely be very well backed and probably help a team out in the process.
But so far there have been NO female drivers in F1 for 40 or more years even slightly worthy of the chance and I cannot see that changing because of FW, if it happens it will be natural and organic, like it was with Mouton, who yes received a lot of help but still had to beat rivals and other men in her car to win rallies, something she did repeatedly in very tricky cars to drive on very tricky events too I kght add.
LukeBrown66 said:
The whole thing is a ruse, always was and always has been.
I understand why it happened, but in reality the only way currently a woman is getting to f1 is sex appeal (marketing in F1 speak) or money, there are no women talented enough to warrant a full time seat.
All FW does is pit women against other women, and it is non aspirational as a result, yes it generates interest but do you not think the Gp2,3 and F3 teams are not a\ware of this and cannot really gauge someone's talent if they do this, it is a pointless exercise in furthering ones talent really.
If someone achieves a GP2 title or goes well in Indycar etc, then fair enough plonk her in an F1 car in testing or a season and see, she will generate immense interest, likely be very well backed and probably help a team out in the process.
But so far there have been NO female drivers in F1 for 40 or more years even slightly worthy of the chance and I cannot see that changing because of FW, if it happens it will be natural and organic, like it was with Mouton, who yes received a lot of help but still had to beat rivals and other men in her car to win rallies, something she did repeatedly in very tricky cars to drive on very tricky events too I kght add.
You're right about FW, although for all we know it could have a positive effect on the number of female racers in the pool in the longer term future..I understand why it happened, but in reality the only way currently a woman is getting to f1 is sex appeal (marketing in F1 speak) or money, there are no women talented enough to warrant a full time seat.
All FW does is pit women against other women, and it is non aspirational as a result, yes it generates interest but do you not think the Gp2,3 and F3 teams are not a\ware of this and cannot really gauge someone's talent if they do this, it is a pointless exercise in furthering ones talent really.
If someone achieves a GP2 title or goes well in Indycar etc, then fair enough plonk her in an F1 car in testing or a season and see, she will generate immense interest, likely be very well backed and probably help a team out in the process.
But so far there have been NO female drivers in F1 for 40 or more years even slightly worthy of the chance and I cannot see that changing because of FW, if it happens it will be natural and organic, like it was with Mouton, who yes received a lot of help but still had to beat rivals and other men in her car to win rallies, something she did repeatedly in very tricky cars to drive on very tricky events too I kght add.
You're also probably right about Jamie... But probably shouldn't assume she can't step up. Statistically is seems hugely unlikely, but might as well wait and see, give her a chance.
Although if she doesn't go for F3 next season I'll pretty much write her off there and then as a racer.
Desire Wilson was in 1981 South African GP, qualified 16th, the race was later declared a non championship event. FISA/FOCA war issues etc.
I note all the young male drivers who never make it into F1 ,scores of them every year most likely, the occasional decent lady driver has a snowball in hells chance, unless some team/sponsor wants to make a loud publicity statement, of course I hope I am proved wrong.
I note all the young male drivers who never make it into F1 ,scores of them every year most likely, the occasional decent lady driver has a snowball in hells chance, unless some team/sponsor wants to make a loud publicity statement, of course I hope I am proved wrong.
Edited by hot metal on Thursday 28th October 23:39
carl_w said:
Peacockantony said:
carl_w said:
f that's the case, why aren't there any women F1 drivers?
Because none of those who have tried have been good enough to make it to F1. The problem is that the best female racers are usually average compared to the peers around them at the time they're competing. - Shirley Muldowney is a 3x Top Fuel dragster champion and the first person of any gender to win 2 then 3 titles.
- Erica Enders went one better and holds 4x Pro Stock championships
- Angelle Sampey is a 3x Pro Stock motorcycle champion, she also holds the mark of 364 round wins in 506 competitive rounds, giving a 71.9% win-per-round ratio and also making her the most successful/ "winningest" female competitor in any Motorsport ever
- Ashley, Brittany and Courtney Force all have successful careers in Top Fuel racing, Ashley being named Rookie of the Year in her first season and Brittany winning the championship in 2017
So what's the difference? Well, watching any coverage of these events, it's simple - they get treated just like A N Other competitor, get on with it and beat the men on an equal footing. No mysogeny or sexism, but equally no fawning, special treatment, making excuses or other assorted simping.
The F1 crowd on both sides of the debate could learn a lot.
(Before anyone says the cars are easier to drive than single seaters..... They pull up to 8G at launch, average 4G over the run, and snap to -3G when the chutes come out. They have 7,000 horsepower which needs to be deployed in an extremely controlled manner which keeping the car in a narrow window of rubbered tarmac all the way down the track)
ChemicalChaos said:
No, it just appears to be a European problem because in America there appears to be no such barriers.
- Shirley Muldowney is a 3x Top Fuel dragster champion and the first person of any gender to win 2 then 3 titles.
- Erica Enders went one better and holds 4x Pro Stock championships
- Angelle Sampey is a 3x Pro Stock motorcycle champion, she also holds the mark of 364 round wins in 506 competitive rounds, giving a 71.9% win-per-round ratio and also making her the most successful/ "winningest" female competitor in any Motorsport ever
- Ashley, Brittany and Courtney Force all have successful careers in Top Fuel racing, Ashley being named Rookie of the Year in her first season and Brittany winning the championship in 2017
So what's the difference? Well, watching any coverage of these events, it's simple - they get treated just like A N Other competitor, get on with it and beat the men on an equal footing. No mysogeny or sexism, but equally no fawning, special treatment, making excuses or other assorted simping.
The F1 crowd on both sides of the debate could learn a lot.
(Before anyone says the cars are easier to drive than single seaters..... They pull up to 8G at launch, average 4G over the run, and snap to -3G when the chutes come out. They have 7,000 horsepower which needs to be deployed in an extremely controlled manner which keeping the car in a narrow window of rubbered tarmac all the way down the track)
Top fuelers high g levels are fleeting, that's entirely different to the forces sustained over a race distance in single seaters - especially in F1. Drag racing is also a skill which is not easy to master, but as a physical challenge it's not even worth comparing to F1.- Shirley Muldowney is a 3x Top Fuel dragster champion and the first person of any gender to win 2 then 3 titles.
- Erica Enders went one better and holds 4x Pro Stock championships
- Angelle Sampey is a 3x Pro Stock motorcycle champion, she also holds the mark of 364 round wins in 506 competitive rounds, giving a 71.9% win-per-round ratio and also making her the most successful/ "winningest" female competitor in any Motorsport ever
- Ashley, Brittany and Courtney Force all have successful careers in Top Fuel racing, Ashley being named Rookie of the Year in her first season and Brittany winning the championship in 2017
So what's the difference? Well, watching any coverage of these events, it's simple - they get treated just like A N Other competitor, get on with it and beat the men on an equal footing. No mysogeny or sexism, but equally no fawning, special treatment, making excuses or other assorted simping.
The F1 crowd on both sides of the debate could learn a lot.
(Before anyone says the cars are easier to drive than single seaters..... They pull up to 8G at launch, average 4G over the run, and snap to -3G when the chutes come out. They have 7,000 horsepower which needs to be deployed in an extremely controlled manner which keeping the car in a narrow window of rubbered tarmac all the way down the track)
I'm not sure what lessons you think F1 could learn, looking at the examples you have given. F1 is and always has been open to both sexes and has had female drivers. The door is fully open.
Can you suggest a few specific things that motorsport is doing in America which F1 could be doing to encourage and find sufficiently talented women, but isn't?
There is a big difference between racing top level drag racing and doing the circuit stuff in Europe.
I hate to say it but drag racing is very much a team thing, the engineers, parts, everyone and the driver play an equal part, at some level the driver can make a difference, and the competitiveness of a woman is no different to that of a man, but I do think drag racing is far more of a team based sport than say Indycar, F1, NASCAR where the driver plays a bigger role than anyone else. So sadly women rarely come to the fore.
A good team tech at drag racing is worth MORE than a driver, hence guys like Prock always won whereever they went. Yes drivers win aswell in other teams, but I do think drag racing is less of a driver sport than other sorts of motorsport, I know this is controversial, but show me the proof that in any other time other than Michele Mouton a woman has competed at an equal level and been a consistent front runner, Mouton did this from 1980 to 1986, her last year she won the German rally championship.
Yes Enders, Shirley were brilliant drivers and competed against very good drivers too like Garlits, Snow, Gwynn, Hines etc, but I do simply feel the technicians and team play a bigger role in drag racing than in other motorsports.
Were they as good as their peers, yes obviously. But are you telling me Shirley in a NASCAR was as good as Earnhardt, Allison, Petty Yarboroough, sorry but no.
I hate to say it but drag racing is very much a team thing, the engineers, parts, everyone and the driver play an equal part, at some level the driver can make a difference, and the competitiveness of a woman is no different to that of a man, but I do think drag racing is far more of a team based sport than say Indycar, F1, NASCAR where the driver plays a bigger role than anyone else. So sadly women rarely come to the fore.
A good team tech at drag racing is worth MORE than a driver, hence guys like Prock always won whereever they went. Yes drivers win aswell in other teams, but I do think drag racing is less of a driver sport than other sorts of motorsport, I know this is controversial, but show me the proof that in any other time other than Michele Mouton a woman has competed at an equal level and been a consistent front runner, Mouton did this from 1980 to 1986, her last year she won the German rally championship.
Yes Enders, Shirley were brilliant drivers and competed against very good drivers too like Garlits, Snow, Gwynn, Hines etc, but I do simply feel the technicians and team play a bigger role in drag racing than in other motorsports.
Were they as good as their peers, yes obviously. But are you telling me Shirley in a NASCAR was as good as Earnhardt, Allison, Petty Yarboroough, sorry but no.
I do not think Formula W has helped their cause one bit, motorsport is virtually unique in that male & female compete together, I cannot think of another of any note. This is one of the most admirable things about the sport, but for the most part, boys find it more attractive than girls still, this may change but slowly.
There are lots of sports where men and women compete equally. Any motorsport be it bikes and cars.
Equestrianism of all kinds.
Mainly because physical prowess is also shared with a vehicle or mount of some kind. Any sport like this women will or should compete equally,
Do they compete equally in sailing for instance? Is physical strength a pivotal aspect in that, it certainly appears to be in rowing or canoeing?
Figure skating they compete totally equally as a pair.
Equestrianism of all kinds.
Mainly because physical prowess is also shared with a vehicle or mount of some kind. Any sport like this women will or should compete equally,
Do they compete equally in sailing for instance? Is physical strength a pivotal aspect in that, it certainly appears to be in rowing or canoeing?
Figure skating they compete totally equally as a pair.
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