Lewis Hamilton to Ferrari
Discussion
carlo996 said:
I think all but the die hard LH fans have moved on, as has LH himself! As for 'greatest scandals in sporting history', maybe one of F1's, but there are far worse and more blatant bits of cheating which rank higher? Hand of God, Lance, bloodgate, FIFA bribes...
It's absolutely nothing to do with whether anyone is a Hamilton fan, a Verstappen fan or a fan of neither.And it is one of the greatest scandals in sporting history. Certainly, the biggest I've seen in my lifetime, and I'm 52.
honda_exige said:
Hamilton bailed out and planted the throttle when he still technically had space and he was no longer substantially alongside - easily grounds for Masi to display an inherent desire to have Max win if he did harbour one.
You can't have it both ways - Masi corrupt enough to prevent Lewis winning at all costs but yet given a golden opportunity to get Max into 1st place forgoes it.
Masi didn't make the decision on that, it goes to the stewards. You can see from the angle of Max car he had no intention of leaving space, it's a great photo to show that reality.You can't have it both ways - Masi corrupt enough to prevent Lewis winning at all costs but yet given a golden opportunity to get Max into 1st place forgoes it.
paulguitar said:
Verstappen was absolutely beaten that day, and beaten by a long, long way. Hamilton was coasting to the flag before F1 became wrestling.
And that was despite the rather robust defensive drive by an underfueled Perez that cut Lewis lead by 10 seconds mid race.Red Bull and Max were spanked on track that day, it wasn't even close.
GlobalRacer said:
PlywoodPascal said:
Yeah that image shows the space that hamilton still “technically” (i.e.did not) had to make the corner and remain on track, all 20cm of it! It’s clear from the trajectory of max’s car that his divebomb technique (as usual) was making no allowance for the other car to remain on track.
I am not trying to have it both ways, I do not think Masi was trying to prevent hamilton from winning. I think he made a mistake, doubled down on it, and then the decision was unforgivably defended by the stewards who made up some laughable arguments to justify the shiotshow of a result.
As I said, in terms of the sporting context, everyone knows max lost, he was the loser in 2021.
It's a bad image. It's clear as day if you look at just before the apex and the apex itself that Hamilton could easily have stayed on track and there was more than enough room for Vestappen to make the move. Watching it all back in slow motion you can clearly see that Hamilton was still turning in when Verstappen was past the point that it was "his" corner. I am not trying to have it both ways, I do not think Masi was trying to prevent hamilton from winning. I think he made a mistake, doubled down on it, and then the decision was unforgivably defended by the stewards who made up some laughable arguments to justify the shiotshow of a result.
As I said, in terms of the sporting context, everyone knows max lost, he was the loser in 2021.
Personally I don't see Max as the loser for multiple reasons so please avoid the use of "everyione".
paulguitar said:
It's absolutely nothing to do with whether anyone is a Hamilton fan, a Verstappen fan or a fan of neither.
And it is one of the greatest scandals in sporting history. Certainly, the biggest I've seen in my lifetime, and I'm 52.
Not for me, it's the same as Schumacher, Prost, Senna's antics in the past. Certainly wasn't premeditated...it was a screw up nothing more. Hardly on the scale of Lance the doper, who ruined loads of individuals lives and stole millions from well meaning sponsors...And it is one of the greatest scandals in sporting history. Certainly, the biggest I've seen in my lifetime, and I'm 52.
carlo996 said:
paulguitar said:
It's absolutely nothing to do with whether anyone is a Hamilton fan, a Verstappen fan or a fan of neither.
And it is one of the greatest scandals in sporting history. Certainly, the biggest I've seen in my lifetime, and I'm 52.
Not for me, it's the same as Schumacher, Prost, Senna's antics in the past. And it is one of the greatest scandals in sporting history. Certainly, the biggest I've seen in my lifetime, and I'm 52.
520TORQUES said:
honda_exige said:
Hamilton bailed out and planted the throttle when he still technically had space and he was no longer substantially alongside - easily grounds for Masi to display an inherent desire to have Max win if he did harbour one.
You can't have it both ways - Masi corrupt enough to prevent Lewis winning at all costs but yet given a golden opportunity to get Max into 1st place forgoes it.
Masi didn't make the decision on that, it goes to the stewards. You can see from the angle of Max car he had no intention of leaving space, it's a great photo to show that reality.You can't have it both ways - Masi corrupt enough to prevent Lewis winning at all costs but yet given a golden opportunity to get Max into 1st place forgoes it.
The stewards backed Masi post race so would have to be part of the same great conspiracy - again they could've ordered Lewis give the position back but they didn't.
As above I'm not convinced in the slightest that there was a premeditated conspiracy to stop Lewis winning.
The problem here is that for LH fans a conspiracy is easier to deal with and gives something to rail against.
honda_exige said:
As above I'm not convinced in the slightest that there was a premeditated conspiracy to stop Lewis winning.
The problem here is that for LH fans a conspiracy is easier to deal with and gives something to rail against.
I don't think it was a premeditated conspiracy, just a monumental fThe problem here is that for LH fans a conspiracy is easier to deal with and gives something to rail against.
k up. In the two rounds before AD, however, Verstappen was given far, far too much leeway to drive like a nutter. if he'd been dealt with appropriately for his behaviour in Saudi, he'd not have even been competing in Abu Dhabi. I also think that, as far as the Abu Dhabi debacle is concerned, who the drivers involved were is irrelevant. It's a stain on the sport itself, which lost a lot of credibility by first committing, and subsequently not correcting the error.
honda_exige said:
Well at that point Lewis wasn't substantially alongside so he didn't need to. Had Lewis had his front wheel near Max's head at the point Lewis ran out of space you'd be have a point but he didn't - you could say well Lewis predicted he'd have no space left, and he could well have been correct, but at the point he left the track he was no longer substantially alongside and the rules don't really take actions due to anticipated situations into account.
The stewards backed Masi post race so would have to be part of the same great conspiracy - again they could've ordered Lewis give the position back but they didn't.
As above I'm not convinced in the slightest that there was a premeditated conspiracy to stop Lewis winning.
The problem here is that for LH fans a conspiracy is easier to deal with and gives something to rail against.
The rules about being substantially alongside apply to the positions of the cars on corner entry. That’s because when you commit to the corner on entry, you have already substantially decided your exist trajectory. It is hard to change it for obvious reasons. The stewards backed Masi post race so would have to be part of the same great conspiracy - again they could've ordered Lewis give the position back but they didn't.
As above I'm not convinced in the slightest that there was a premeditated conspiracy to stop Lewis winning.
The problem here is that for LH fans a conspiracy is easier to deal with and gives something to rail against.
Again, I did not, and I have not seen, in this thread anyone (except you) suggest a conspiracy.
GlobalRacer said:
It's a bad image. It's clear as day if you look at just before the apex and the apex itself that Hamilton could easily have stayed on track and there was more than enough room for Vestappen to make the move. Watching it all back in slow motion you can clearly see that Hamilton was still turning in when Verstappen was past the point that it was "his" corner.
Personally I don't see Max as the loser for multiple reasons so please avoid the use of "everyione".
You (and others) might not believe it, but you do know it. Otherwise, why defend what is publicly proclaimed so strenuously ly. Perhaps only because you (collectively) feel it needs the defence. The official result does not stand on its own merits.Personally I don't see Max as the loser for multiple reasons so please avoid the use of "everyione".
520TORQUES said:
Forester1965 said:
When I heard he was going to drive Lauda's Ferrari at Monaco I was thinking "are you sure about that, Ferrari?". Leclerc provided the answer. 
To be fair to Charles, a brake disk exploded, that's why he crashed that car.I was surprised they let him drive that car on a street circuit, when you crash that era of car, you can end up very badly injured.
Oh to be a fly on the wall at the insurance underwriter for sportsmen. Lewis has been seen skydiving recently, and there do seem to be other dangerous activities undertaken by drivers - yet it wasn’t so long ago that Pascal Wherlein missed two or three F1 races following an injury at the Race of Champions event.
PlywoodPascal said:
GlobalRacer said:
It's a bad image. It's clear as day if you look at just before the apex and the apex itself that Hamilton could easily have stayed on track and there was more than enough room for Vestappen to make the move. Watching it all back in slow motion you can clearly see that Hamilton was still turning in when Verstappen was past the point that it was "his" corner.
Personally I don't see Max as the loser for multiple reasons so please avoid the use of "everyione".
You (and others) might not believe it, but you do know it. Otherwise, why defend what is publicly proclaimed so strenuously ly. Perhaps only because you (collectively) feel it needs the defence. The official result does not stand on its own merits.Personally I don't see Max as the loser for multiple reasons so please avoid the use of "everyione".
honda_exige said:
Meh I'm not fussed tbh. Lewis was a victim somewhat of Masi's incompetence and Max was a victim of Lewis' teammate's incompetence. The better driver over the year won imo so I slept soundly the night of AD21 and every night since. The world has moved on even if you maybe haven't.
I think Verstappen would have been a worthy champion, had he won the title legitimately.I haven't lost any sleep over the debacle, but it surprises me that anyone who cares about sport could be okay with what happened.
Sandpit Steve said:
Yes it was a mechanical failure that caused that accident, you could see the debris behind the car before it hit the wall.
Oh to be a fly on the wall at the insurance underwriter for sportsmen. Lewis has been seen skydiving recently, and there do seem to be other dangerous activities undertaken by drivers - yet it wasn’t so long ago that Pascal Wherlein missed two or three F1 races following an injury at the Race of Champions event.
Skydiving is extremely safe, my old man was doing that until his late 70's.Oh to be a fly on the wall at the insurance underwriter for sportsmen. Lewis has been seen skydiving recently, and there do seem to be other dangerous activities undertaken by drivers - yet it wasn’t so long ago that Pascal Wherlein missed two or three F1 races following an injury at the Race of Champions event.
It's when you start base jumping or using wing suits in the mountains the risks go up significantly.
honda_exige said:
Meh I'm not fussed tbh. Lewis was a victim somewhat of Masi's incompetence and Max was a victim of Lewis' teammate's incompetence. The better driver over the year won imo so I slept soundly the night of AD21 and every night since. The world has moved on even if you maybe haven't.
Who ended up being the victim at the end though is the issue for a lot of people I think. It's far from clear that had Verstappen been on the receiving end of Masi's cockup, the most strident on here about the great injustice would not have been quite ok with what happened with them defending what Masi did and saying it was unfortunate but it ended up being the 'right' result in the end instead of nursing a grudge over what happened for years without failing to mention it at every race weekend...
isaldiri said:
Who ended up being the victim at the end though is the issue for a lot of people I think. It's far from clear that had Verstappen been on the receiving end of Masi's cockup, the most strident on here about the great injustice would not have been quite ok with what happened with them defending what Masi did and saying it was unfortunate but it ended up being the 'right' result in the end instead of nursing a grudge over what happened for years without failing to mention it at every race weekend...
Had that happened to Max, or if it does in the future, I'd be equally disgusted. It's a stain on the sport that will never go away unfortunately. Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff